# The Vorkosigan Saga Discussion Thread (Progressive Spoilers) **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [November 26, 2014, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-vorkosigan-saga-discussion-thread-progressive-spoilers/705680 "2014-11-26T16:23:58Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Spice\_Weasel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spice_weasel/32/5435_2.png) [@Spice\_Weasel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spice_Weasel)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2014, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-vorkosigan-saga-discussion-thread-progressive-spoilers/705680/1 "2014-11-26T16:23:58Z")
A friend recommended me _Shards of Honor_ on the premise of sci-fi romance - holy freakin’ crap this is good stuff! I am inordinately happy to have discovered Lois McMaster Bujold. I think Aral Vorkosigan in one of the best literary characters I’ve encountered in years. I decided to read in chronological/arc order as recommended by Ms. Bujold rather than publication order. **Spoilers for Shards of Honor, Barrayar and Warrior’s Apprentice Below** I just finished \*Barrayar \*and would put it on my top ten list of favorite books of all time. It was a little soul-crushing though because I recently lost an unborn child. I like Cordelia well enough, but she is a very different sort of person than I am, I don’t think I would say out loud half of the things she dares, the ways in which she provokes some Barrayans seems rather stupid to me at times. I can’t help but wonder if she hadn’t beat the verbal piss out of Vordarian during that party whether his animosity toward Vorkosigan might not have been tempered. I just started _The Warrior’s Apprentice_ and Miles Vorkosigan is something else. You can see a little bit of both his mother and his father in him, but he is also entirely his own thing. It’s also a really interesting choice to have a protagonist start out at such a great physical (and psychological) disadvantage. I wonder what he will elect to tell Elena about her mother when he finds out the truth. I can’t see her knowing the truth as a good thing under any circumstances. Miles is smart enough to know that. I also wonder if it will change how he views Bothari. And of course I need to the storyteller to tell me all about Ges Vorrutyer and how Vorkosigan became involved with him. He was one creepy mother fucker. I was hoping some people would be willing to engage in discussion of the series as I read it. I currently don’t have anyone to talk about it with, and it’s driving me nuts! ---
**Author:** ![Greg\_Charles](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/839c29/32.png) [@Greg\_Charles](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Greg_Charles)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2014, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-vorkosigan-saga-discussion-thread-progressive-spoilers/705680/2 "2014-11-26T17:43:32Z")
It’s a great series. You have a lot of fun reading ahead of you! The series concentrates mostly on Miles, with his parents taking up a supporting role. There are also couple of other novels set in the same universe, but starring other characters. Those aren’t bad either. For fun, compare and contrast Miles with Richard the Third as you read. ---
**Author:** ![Reno\_Nevada](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/6f9a4e/32.png) [@Reno\_Nevada](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Reno_Nevada)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2014, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-vorkosigan-saga-discussion-thread-progressive-spoilers/705680/3 "2014-11-26T17:49:26Z")
Glad to! I also ran across the Saga after most of it was written, and I also read it first in chronological order. I do think it is probably the best, but there are some early discontinuities in skill-level in the writing. However, you have already weathered some of the worst. As you will see, Cordelia and Aral recede into the background in favor of Miles for the remainder of the series. Cordelia is a good character but Miles is a great one, IMHO. > [@](#): > > I can’t see her knowing the truth as a good thing under any circumstances. Miles is smart enough to know that. Miles is plenty smart, but he doesn’t use his brains to STAY OUT of trouble. ---
**Author:** ![Andy\_L](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c67d28/32.png) [@Andy\_L](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Andy_L)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2014, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-vorkosigan-saga-discussion-thread-progressive-spoilers/705680/4 "2014-11-26T17:55:57Z")
> [@Reno\_Nevada](#): > > Miles is plenty smart, but he doesn’t use his brains to STAY OUT of trouble. Yes, Miles has a bunch of blind spots, and they will lead him into trouble as often as not. To the OP: You’ve got some good reading ahead - enjoy! P.S. I’ve got a button that says “My mother went to Vorbarr Sultana and all I got was this bloody shopping bag” ---
**Author:** ![StGermain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stgermain/32/2868_2.png) [@StGermain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/StGermain)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2014, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-vorkosigan-saga-discussion-thread-progressive-spoilers/705680/5 "2014-11-26T18:01:05Z")
I’ve love the Vorkosigan books since reading _the Warrior’s Apprentice_ in 1986. I can’t think of any other series that has held my interest more faithfully. I envy you getting to experience it for the first time. StG ---
**Author:** ![vontsira](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/51bf81/32.png) [@vontsira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vontsira)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2014, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-vorkosigan-saga-discussion-thread-progressive-spoilers/705680/6 "2014-11-26T20:04:22Z")
Saying the following, not with any intention of thwarting or undercutting this TSD thread, or discussion on it; but there is an IMO excellent Net discussion group, primarily about the works of Lois McMaster Bujold but spreading over into talking of all manner of subjects. I participated in this group for a fair while: but I’m on the elderly side, and am overall beyond-clueless about computer matters. The group and access to it are – certainly for me – “mechanics-wise” absolutely not user-friendly or easy to handle, and these things got to such a pass that frustratingly, for many months past I have been unable to take part. Anyone with normal computer “savvy” should, I’m sure, be fine. The best “pointer” toward this group I can give, is to Google “[lists.herald.co](http://lists.herald.co). - mailman - Lois Bujold” , and go from there. I delight in Bujold’s “Vorkosiverse” overall, but confess to being a bit less fond of the earliest few books – as told of by the OP – than the rest of the story arc. I have a problem or two with _The Warrior’s Apprentice_ and _The Vor Game_; and while I consider _Shards_ and _Barrayar_ brilliantly written, I simply find myself happier with the later material, after what becomes for a long while the form of Miles’s service to his planet, has established itself. ---
**Author:** ![Baron\_Greenback](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/baron_greenback/32/48_2.png) [@Baron\_Greenback](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baron_Greenback)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2014, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-vorkosigan-saga-discussion-thread-progressive-spoilers/705680/7 "2014-11-26T20:16:51Z")
I started of with The Warrior’s Apprentice, and then went in chronological order, and only then read the Cordelia and Aral focused stuff. I found the first few Miles books a little Young Adult-ish, but they are highly entertaining anyway. Bujold really grows as a writer through the series though, and the format and even genre of the books changes. ---
**Author:** ![aruvqan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aruvqan/32/2891_2.png) [@aruvqan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aruvqan)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2014, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-vorkosigan-saga-discussion-thread-progressive-spoilers/705680/8 "2014-11-26T20:30:11Z")
> [@Spice\_Weasel](#): > > A friend recommended me _Shards of Honor_ on the premise of sci-fi romance - holy freakin’ crap this is good stuff! I am inordinately happy to have discovered Lois McMaster Bujold. I think Aral Vorkosigan in one of the best literary characters I’ve encountered in years. I decided to read in chronological/arc order as recommended by Ms. Bujold rather than publication order. > > **Spoilers for Shards of Honor, Barrayar and Warrior’s Apprentice Below** > > I just finished \*Barrayar \*and would put it on my top ten list of favorite books of all time. It was a little soul-crushing though because I recently lost an unborn child. I like Cordelia well enough, but she is a very different sort of person than I am, I don’t think I would say out loud half of the things she dares, the ways in which she provokes some Barrayans seems rather stupid to me at times. I can’t help but wonder if she hadn’t beat the verbal piss out of Vordarian during that party whether his animosity toward Vorkosigan might not have been tempered. > > I just started _The Warrior’s Apprentice_ and Miles Vorkosigan is something else. You can see a little bit of both his mother and his father in him, but he is also entirely his own thing. It’s also a really interesting choice to have a protagonist start out at such a great physical (and psychological) disadvantage. > > I wonder what he will elect to tell Elena about her mother when he finds out the truth. I can’t see her knowing the truth as a good thing under any circumstances. Miles is smart enough to know that. I also wonder if it will change how he views Bothari. > > And of course I need to the storyteller to tell me all about Ges Vorrutyer and how Vorkosigan became involved with him. He was one creepy mother fucker. > > I was hoping some people would be willing to engage in discussion of the series as I read it. I currently don’t have anyone to talk about it with, and it’s driving me nuts! Grats - I have been on a mailing list of Bujold fen since 1998, which LMB is a participant in. She also participates in the Baen message board, she has a web log and a [web page](http://www.dendarii.com/) with information on all of the above. On the email list we do regular discussions on different books, we have finished Dreamweavers Dilemma and I think we are planning on doing either Curse of Chalion or the first book in the Wide Green World series next. There are also fan fiction writers on [live journal](http://bujold-fic.livejournal.com/) and [archive of our own](http://archiveofourown.org/tags/Vorkosigan%20Saga%20-%20Lois%20McMaster%20Bujold/works). Ges Vorrutyer, a really nasty piece of work, and the brother of Aral’s first wife. A sadistic nasty admiral who when met is in charge of a fleet headed off to Escobar with Prince Serg of Barrayar to annex a new planet. Once a lover of the once bisexual Aral, he seems to still want Aral - perhaps because Aral left him and is inaccessible. All sorts of political crap involved. And please reconsider asking me for spoilers… it is so much fun reading them all yourself and discovering the answers! ---
**Author:** ![Spice\_Weasel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spice_weasel/32/5435_2.png) [@Spice\_Weasel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spice_Weasel)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2014, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-vorkosigan-saga-discussion-thread-progressive-spoilers/705680/9 "2014-11-26T20:45:09Z")
> [@aruvqan](#): > > And please reconsider asking me for spoilers… it is so much fun reading them all yourself and discovering the answers! I will so join the group! But no, I am not asking for spoilers! Just warning other readers that spoilers will be in here as I get further into the reading. I’m about 50% of the way through Warrior’s Apprentice, Miles just took over the mercenary ship and declared himself in charge. Man, he is a tricky sonofabitch. I’m kind of awed. What he lacks in physical prowess he more than makes up for in intelligence and reckless disregard for the consequences of his own actions. ---
**Author:** ![Slow\_Moving\_Vehicle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slow_moving_vehicle/32/291_2.png) [@Slow\_Moving\_Vehicle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slow_Moving_Vehicle)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2014, 12:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-vorkosigan-saga-discussion-thread-progressive-spoilers/705680/10 "2014-11-27T00:24:07Z")
**SpiceWeasel** , you’ve really laid down a challenge: how to talk about this great series of novels without spoiling the ones you haven’t yet read. A fine line to tread… This is one of my favorite SF series, up with Richard Morgan’s Takeshi Kovacs novels. And for the same reason - Bujold understands that building a universe is more than just describing spaceships and ray guns. Most of the characters in the Vorkosiganverse are nicely rounded and developed, and their conflicts are not just tactical or military; they also suffer broken hearts and PTSD and social embarrassment. Even the relatively minor figures, like Byerly Vorruyter (whom you have not yet met) and Count Vorhalas, are given enough development to let you know something of their minds. Bujold sneaks in some interesting meditations on questions of identity and medical ethics, too - she seems to have really thought about the implications of things like cloning, genetic manipulation, and gender reassignment. For my money, the series is best towards the end. I really enjoyed _A Civil Campaign_ and _Captain Vorpatril’s Alliance_ - the last because I like Ivan, and it was nice to see him get some love. > [@Andy\_L](#): > > P.S. I’ve got a button that says “My mother went to Vorbarr Sultana and all I got was this bloody shopping bag” Oooh, ooooh, I so want this on a T-shirt! ---
**Author:** ![Dendarii\_Dame](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/bbce88/32.png) [@Dendarii\_Dame](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dendarii_Dame)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2014, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-vorkosigan-saga-discussion-thread-progressive-spoilers/705680/11 "2014-11-27T15:31:49Z")
I’m called Dendarii Dame because of how much I enjoy these books. “Dendarii” is a rural area in the novels. So many wonderful characters, plot developments, etc. I’d better end this post before I start spoiling them. ---
**Author:** ![Fretful\_Porpentine](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fretful_porpentine/32/2873_2.png) [@Fretful\_Porpentine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fretful_Porpentine)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2014, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-vorkosigan-saga-discussion-thread-progressive-spoilers/705680/12 "2014-11-27T15:58:33Z")
Oh yay, I’ve been working my way through this series for the last four months (at this point, I’ve finished everything except _Cryoburn_, which I’m about a third of the way through), and I’m so glad to see some SDMB discussion on it. It’s totally brain-eaty, isn’t it? I’m not usually a big SF reader, but someone gave a paper about it at an academic conference I went to in May – arguing, essentially, that it’s a radical reworking of _Richard III_, or rather, what _Richard III_ would be like if Richard’s primary motivation were staying OFF the throne rather than placing himself ON it – and I’m all about Stuff That Plays With Shakespeare, so I figured I’d give it a try. I read _The Warrior’s Apprentice_ first, and my first impression was, basically, “some nice characterization, wouldn’t mind reading more about these people, plot a little too confusing and Byzantine for my tastes.” Fortunately, I was interested enough to give some of the shorter stories a try, and it was “The Mountains of Mourning” that absolutely got me hooked (which should, I think, be up next on your list after TWA? You’re in for a treat.) ---
**Author:** ![Spice\_Weasel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spice_weasel/32/5435_2.png) [@Spice\_Weasel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spice_Weasel)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2014, 4:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-vorkosigan-saga-discussion-thread-progressive-spoilers/705680/13 "2014-11-28T04:29:14Z")
> [@Fretful\_Porpentine](#): > > I read _The Warrior’s Apprentice_ first, and my first impression was, basically, “some nice characterization, wouldn’t mind reading more about these people, plot a little too confusing and Byzantine for my tastes.” Fortunately, I was interested enough to give some of the shorter stories a try, and it was “The Mountains of Mourning” that absolutely got me hooked (which should, I think, be up next on your list after TWA? You’re in for a treat.) Oh, I loved it! I finished it last night, up way past my bedtime. I can’t believe how fucking awesome these books are. I actually spent time today _worrying_ about the characters, like they were people. I can’t remember the last time I did that with a book. Probably not since adolescence. Warrior’s Apprentice compared to the first two (Shards of Honor and Barrayar) was downright rompy, hilarious madness… with the exception of a handful of just heart-stopping scenes. I see that little dilemma with Elena’s true parentage took care of itself. ☹ Poor Bothari. The scene where Aral begs Vorhalas for his son’s life in open court? ‘‘Shove it, Vorkosigan’’ just about killed me. I’m not sure I’ve ever been in love with a literary character before, but as Cordelia said, ‘‘When he’s cut, I bleed.’’ I was just riveted by that scene. Vor politics are _hard core._ Sure puts the U.S. bullshit into perspective. I’m trying to get my husband to read these books (next on his list after the final Harry Potter), and I was thinking of having him start with Warrior’s Apprentice because I think he’ll find Miles a hoot. But given the two scenes mentioned above, there is no way those cut so deep unless you were there, so-to-speak, to witness what came before. So he will start with Shards of Honor. [QUOTE=Slow Moving Vehicle] SpiceWeasel, you’ve really laid down a challenge: how to talk about this great series of novels without spoiling the ones you haven’t yet read. A fine line to tread… [/QUOTE] Don’t worry, I’m flying through these suckers so fast it won’t be long before we’re all on the same page. On to ‘‘The Mountains of Mourning.’’ And Happy Thanksgiving! ---
**Author:** ![Typo\_Knig](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/cdc98d/32.png) [@Typo\_Knig](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Knig)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2014, 5:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-vorkosigan-saga-discussion-thread-progressive-spoilers/705680/14 "2014-11-28T05:14:39Z")
I love Love LOVE the Vorkosiverse! You’ve got a lot of fun reading ahead of you, \*\*SpiceWeasel[\b]. Don’t forget the side books Ethan of Athos and Falling Free. Falling Free is especially poignant since Bujold’s father was an expert in failure analysis. Have fun! And “Forward Momentum!” ---
**Author:** ![MEBuckner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mebuckner/32/2896_2.png) [@MEBuckner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MEBuckner)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2014, 7:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-vorkosigan-saga-discussion-thread-progressive-spoilers/705680/15 "2014-11-28T07:59:02Z")
> [@Spice\_Weasel](#): > > Don’t worry, I’m flying through these suckers so fast it won’t be long before we’re all on the same page. Sounds like you’re going to rip through the whole series pretty fast. Fortunately–in my experience at least–Bujold is _extremely_ re-readable. ---
**Author:** ![eulalia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eulalia/32/457_2.png) [@eulalia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eulalia)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2014, 8:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-vorkosigan-saga-discussion-thread-progressive-spoilers/705680/16 "2014-11-28T08:42:54Z")
> [@MEBuckner](#): > > Sounds like you’re going to rip through the whole series pretty fast. > > Fortunately–in my experience at least–Bujold is _extremely_ re-readable. I have the whole series on this very iPad. Now I have to stop posting and read them all again! ---
**Author:** ![Frodo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/frodo/32/302_2.png) [@Frodo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frodo)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2014, 12:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-vorkosigan-saga-discussion-thread-progressive-spoilers/705680/17 "2014-11-28T12:27:05Z")
I read the entire series once a year more or less, I envy you _Spice Weasel_! I wish I could readthem for the first time again. ---
**Author:** ![Recusant](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/838e76/32.png) [@Recusant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Recusant)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2014, 12:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-vorkosigan-saga-discussion-thread-progressive-spoilers/705680/18 "2014-11-28T12:30:52Z")
> [@Spice\_Weasel](#): > > I’m not sure I’ve ever been in love with a literary character before, but as Cordelia said, ‘‘When he’s cut, I bleed.’’ I was just riveted by that scene. Cordelia’s great- and she keeps getting better. Just you wait. I first heard of the series when I was searching for a specific quotation, and kept stumbling on semi-related ones from these books. Over the course of that afternoon, I went from “Man, I don’t know who this ‘Lois McMaster Bujold’ is, but she’s my kinda lady” to “I’m going to have to look this series up” to “I don’t think I CAN read these books, since if they don’t live up to these lines, I’ll feel awful” to “$%&\* it, I’m off to the library”. In the interest of avoiding spoilers, I will say only this: if you’re at all concerned about the reactions you’ll get from people, consider sticking with the omnibus editions. Some of the covers the individual books have will raise a few eyebrows, otherwise. ---
**Author:** ![Fretful\_Porpentine](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fretful_porpentine/32/2873_2.png) [@Fretful\_Porpentine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fretful_Porpentine)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2014, 1:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-vorkosigan-saga-discussion-thread-progressive-spoilers/705680/19 "2014-11-28T13:50:02Z")
Apparently, the staff at the Harvard bookstore got so sick of the awful covers that they decided to create [their own version](https://www.facebook.com/harvardbookstore/photos/a.10150236416393488.371420.61666748487/10150236416563488/?type=3&theater). ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2014, 2:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-vorkosigan-saga-discussion-thread-progressive-spoilers/705680/20 "2014-11-28T14:05:28Z")
> [@Andy\_L](#): > > P.S. I’ve got a button that says “My mother went to Vorbarr Sultana and all I got was this bloody shopping bag” My favorite line in the entire series may be, “Want to see what I got?” [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-vorkosigan-saga-discussion-thread-progressive-spoilers/705680.md?page=2)