# The Vorkosigan Saga Discussion Thread (Progressive Spoilers) **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [November 26, 2014, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-vorkosigan-saga-discussion-thread-progressive-spoilers/705680 "2014-11-26T16:23:58Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 11
**Author:** ![Ruken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f475e1/32.png) [@Ruken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruken)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2015, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-vorkosigan-saga-discussion-thread-progressive-spoilers/705680/201 "2015-01-10T20:40:30Z")
> [@Spice\_Weasel](#): > > I decided to read in chronological/arc order as recommended by Ms. Bujold rather than publication order. I’ve not read past this point, since I’ve not read any of these books yet and want to avoid spoilers. I didn’t see a list on LMB’s website, but wiki has this: [Vorkosigan Saga - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vorkosigan_Saga#In_internal_chronological_order) Is this the order the OP mentions? I wasn’t seeing much Vorkosigan love from the DC library, but it looks like they have some omnibus collections and audio books that cover most of the stories. ---
**Author:** ![vontsira](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/51bf81/32.png) [@vontsira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vontsira)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2015, 9:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-vorkosigan-saga-discussion-thread-progressive-spoilers/705680/202 "2015-01-10T21:45:15Z")
> [@Spice\_Weasel](#): > > Oh, I wasn’t taking it personally. Just giving my 2c. And I cannot lie, it’s definitely all about the people to me, too. I just think the context is important. Science fiction is great because it can take very abstract philosophical ideas and apply them to the human condition in novel or heretofore unexplored ways. A balance is good, for sure – character-and-milieu. > [@](#): > > I admit I don’t have a ton of sci-fi reading experience. My favorite (arguably my favorite writer, period) is Bradbury. I’ve never read Asimov. I think Bujold is a bit off the beaten path for a sci-fi writer, based on what I’ve encountered. She does make relationships central to her stories, and that’s one of the reasons I like her so much. My own sci-fi reading is definitely spotty. I have of course heard of Bradbury and his most renowned works, but have never read anything by him – in part, because of things heard (or imagined-heard) about him which tended to put me off; but I suspect these may be misapprehensions – likely, should try him. > [@](#): > > And, I leave you with two words: butter bugs. :eek: Since you’ve clearly got this far in _A Civil Campaign_, I have little fear that the following will create spoiling. Perhaps I’m a Scrooge, tending to go on more about the minority of the total of the Vorkosiverse which I don’t enjoy, than about the large majority which I do; but anyway, for me _ACC_ was in very large measure, totally splendid and admirable. However, I find myself like a fair number of fans, in considering an on the whole extremely stylish and well-achieved novel, to be marred by the slapstick stuff that it contains – which last, strikes me as most embarrassingly, cringe-makingly silly and childish, and altogether unnecessary. I do feel that Bujold decidedly dropped the ball by including this nonsense; and to be honest, could almost wish that she had never thought of Enrique and his bloody butterbugs. ---
**Author:** ![Spice\_Weasel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spice_weasel/32/5435_2.png) [@Spice\_Weasel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spice_Weasel)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2015, 2:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-vorkosigan-saga-discussion-thread-progressive-spoilers/705680/203 "2015-01-11T02:27:37Z")
> [@Ruken](#): > > I’ve not read past this point, since I’ve not read any of these books yet and want to avoid spoilers. I didn’t see a list on LMB’s website, but wiki has this: [Vorkosigan Saga - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vorkosigan_Saga#In_internal_chronological_order) > > Is this the order the OP mentions? > > I wasn’t seeing much Vorkosigan love from the DC library, but it looks like they have some omnibus collections and audio books that cover most of the stories. I started with _Shards of Honor_ but have been reading them chronologically in the order presented in your list. I’m going to have to double back and read _Falling Free_ soon. Good luck finding them from the library. I have spent a small fortune on Kindle for them. Figures I’d fall for a series with 19 books/novellas. [QUOTE=vontsira] I find myself like a fair number of fans, in considering an on the whole extremely stylish and well-achieved novel, to be marred by the slapstick stuff that it contains – which last, strikes me as most embarrassingly, cringe-makingly silly and childish, and altogether unnecessary. I do feel that Bujold decidedly dropped the ball by including this nonsense; and to be honest, could almost wish that she had never thought of Enrique and his bloody butterbugs. [/QUOTE] What it comes down to is that I’m skeptical even Mark would take a gamble on something that ridiculous. I _love_ bugs, as a general rule, and even I’m grossed out by the butter bugs. He’s supposed to be the one with business acumen. I almost feel like this side story is taking a potshot at his character for no reason at all. He was sufficiently and believably awkward and weird, it wasn’t necessary to push him into complete whackjob territory. ---
**Author:** ![StGermain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stgermain/32/2868_2.png) [@StGermain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/StGermain)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2015, 2:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-vorkosigan-saga-discussion-thread-progressive-spoilers/705680/204 "2015-01-11T02:58:27Z")
But the bugs make perfect sense. They’re like bees, only without stings. They eat waste product and give an edible back. And the terraforming opportunities alone are great. I’m very pro-butter bug. StG ---
**Author:** ![Helena](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c68b51/32.png) [@Helena](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Helena)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2015, 3:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-vorkosigan-saga-discussion-thread-progressive-spoilers/705680/205 "2015-01-11T03:10:00Z")
Ah, but Spice Weasel hasn’t gotten to the really ridiculous part yet. 😉 (My husband always disliked the slapstick aspect, but he just pointed out that it’s like the classic comedy with wedding.) ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2015, 12:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-vorkosigan-saga-discussion-thread-progressive-spoilers/705680/206 "2015-01-11T12:43:34Z")
> [@StGermain](#): > > But the bugs make perfect sense. They’re like bees, only without stings. They eat waste product and give an edible back. And the terraforming opportunities alone are great. I’m very pro-butter bug. > > StG And the resolution is particularly good. I’ve often thought about the real world applications of the solution to the butterbug storyline. Imagine if we redesigned cockroaches to look like ladybugs. People might actually _want_ them in their house. ---
**Author:** ![vontsira](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/51bf81/32.png) [@vontsira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vontsira)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2015, 2:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-vorkosigan-saga-discussion-thread-progressive-spoilers/705680/207 "2015-01-11T14:33:48Z")
> [@Spice\_Weasel](#): > > What it comes down to is that I’m skeptical even Mark would take a gamble on something that ridiculous. I _love_ bugs, as a general rule, and even I’m grossed out by the butter bugs. He’s supposed to be the one with business acumen. I almost feel like this side story is taking a potshot at his character for no reason at all. He was sufficiently and believably awkward and weird, it wasn’t necessary to push him into complete whackjob territory. > [@StGermain](#): > > But the bugs make perfect sense. They’re like bees, only without stings. They eat waste product and give an edible back. And the terraforming opportunities alone are great. I’m very pro-butter bug. > [@Helena](#): > > Ah, but Spice Weasel hasn’t gotten to the really ridiculous part yet. 😉 > > (My husband always disliked the slapstick aspect, but he just pointed out that it’s like the classic comedy with wedding.) **Spice Weasel** , hoping that you may now be some way further on in _A Civil Campaign_, and that “spoilage” won’t be occurring for you here (I’m afraid I don’t know how to operate the board’s “hide spoiler” facility). I like the butterbugs and their product, in their own right, just fine – it’s only that I hate the unsubtle buffoonery in _ACC_, involving said creatures / substance. For me, the novel in its love-story; and national / Countship / familial politicking-and-finagling; aspects, is terrific: I just can’t comprehend what possessed the author to add in the silly, kids’-comic-like, downright embarrassing slapstick garbage. It just strikes me as – anything else aside – so unnecessary. **Helena** , I accept that I seem not to have had any exposure to classic comedy with wedding, and may thus be missing a trick; but even if that were not so, I think that (like your husband) I wouldn’t be able to enjoy the _ACC_ crude clowning episodes. ---
**Author:** ![Fretful\_Porpentine](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fretful_porpentine/32/2873_2.png) [@Fretful\_Porpentine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fretful_Porpentine)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2015, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-vorkosigan-saga-discussion-thread-progressive-spoilers/705680/208 "2015-01-11T15:46:33Z")
Oh, OK, the slapstick stuff at the very end I can live without, but you’ve _got_ to admit Enrique as attempted poet is worth the price of admission 🙂 Also, as a Shakespeare prof who does a lot with questions of gender and performance, may I just say how _awesome_ the Vorrutyer clan follies are, especially when you read them with your _Twelfth Night_-colored glasses on? (One touch that I especially like is Dono wearing Pierre’s clothing – which is, I’m pretty sure, a deliberate nod to the fact that Viola in _Twelfth Night_ makes a conscious effort to dress like Sebastian.) I also like the way that in this particular rewriting, the Cesario / Olivia pairing actually _happens_. ---
**Author:** ![Andy\_L](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c67d28/32.png) [@Andy\_L](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Andy_L)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2015, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-vorkosigan-saga-discussion-thread-progressive-spoilers/705680/209 "2015-01-11T18:21:41Z")
> [@Spice\_Weasel](#): > > What it comes down to is that I’m skeptical even Mark would take a gamble on something that ridiculous. I _love_ bugs, as a general rule, and even I’m grossed out by the butter bugs. He’s supposed to be the one with business acumen. I almost feel like this side story is taking a potshot at his character for no reason at all. He was sufficiently and believably awkward and weird, it wasn’t necessary to push him into complete whackjob territory. Mark stumbled into the butterbug business as I recall, almost like Miles acquired Arde Mayhew and Baz Jesek. ---
**Author:** ![vontsira](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/51bf81/32.png) [@vontsira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vontsira)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2015, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-vorkosigan-saga-discussion-thread-progressive-spoilers/705680/210 "2015-01-11T19:56:13Z")
> [@Fretful\_Porpentine](#): > > Oh, OK, the slapstick stuff at the very end I can live without, but you’ve _got_ to admit Enrique as attempted poet is worth the price of admission 🙂 For sure, Enrique and his doings are a hoot – but I so loathe the goonery / clownery involving his “pets” and what they produce, that I can feel a bit torn as to whether – given the power – I would accord to the whole Enrique component of the book, thumbs “up”, or “down”. > [@](#): > > Also, as a Shakespeare prof who does a lot with questions of gender and performance, may I just say how _awesome_ the Vorrutyer clan follies are, especially when you read them with your _Twelfth Night_-colored glasses on? (One touch that I especially like is Dono wearing Pierre’s clothing – which is, I’m pretty sure, a deliberate nod to the fact that Viola in _Twelfth Night_ makes a conscious effort to dress like Sebastian.) I also like the way that in this particular rewriting, > > the Cesario / Olivia pairing actually _happens_. I confess that I’ve never read or seen _Twelfth Night_. Feel, in the light of the above, that perhaps I should. ---
**Author:** ![Fretful\_Porpentine](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fretful_porpentine/32/2873_2.png) [@Fretful\_Porpentine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fretful_Porpentine)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2015, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-vorkosigan-saga-discussion-thread-progressive-spoilers/705680/211 "2015-01-11T20:31:35Z")
All of the little Shakespearean allusions / reimaginations are probably my favorite thing about these books. (On a vaguely related side note, Gregor is pretty clearly a Hamlet who got to _live_ because _somebody else_ already took care of the evil stepfather problem for him – and this confirms my general impression that Hamlet actually _would_ have made an excellent, if eccentric, king if he’d ever gotten the chance.) ---
**Author:** ![vontsira](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/51bf81/32.png) [@vontsira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vontsira)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2015, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-vorkosigan-saga-discussion-thread-progressive-spoilers/705680/212 "2015-01-11T21:20:20Z")
> [@Fretful\_Porpentine](#): > > All of the little Shakespearean allusions / reimaginations are probably my favorite thing about these books. (On a vaguely related side note, Gregor is pretty clearly a Hamlet who got to _live_ because _somebody else_ already took care of the evil stepfather problem for him – and this confirms my general impression that Hamlet actually _would_ have made an excellent, if eccentric, king if he’d ever gotten the chance.) Shakey and Lois – perhaps an improbable alliance, but there we are ! (You mention upthread, the notion put out for people’s evaluation, that Miles = Shakespeare’s Richard III with a difference – desperate to stay off the throne, not to get on to it !) Food for thought, certainly. ---
**Author:** ![Baron\_Greenback](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/baron_greenback/32/48_2.png) [@Baron\_Greenback](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baron_Greenback)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2015, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-vorkosigan-saga-discussion-thread-progressive-spoilers/705680/213 "2015-01-19T19:29:22Z")
Just had a quick read through one of my favourites (A Civil Campaign), and I notice that in addition to using British idioms, Barrayar has a “Not Proven” verdict - a unique feature of Scots law. not in any way a bump, no sirree ---
**Author:** ![Spice\_Weasel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spice_weasel/32/5435_2.png) [@Spice\_Weasel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spice_Weasel)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2015, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-vorkosigan-saga-discussion-thread-progressive-spoilers/705680/214 "2015-01-21T20:59:20Z")
Okay. I guess I retract the butter bug criticism. It’s weird, but I thought it was used nicely to tell Mark and Kareen’s story I about died when Cordelia brought out the old make-out sofa for Kou and Drou. God, she is underhanded. And I rather like Enrique. I’m partial to socially clueless geeks. (I didn’t mind the slapstick at all, I think the book would be mostly depressing otherwise.) And the entire dinner scene, I cackled like a loon. My husband thought I was nuts. The pinnacle was Illyan, ‘‘So, Madame Versoisson…’’ And then it got very sad. I’m so so so so happy Miles _finally_ found his Lady Vorkosigan. I thought it was great, Miles having to learn that he can’t just steamroll all over everyone. The letter he wrote her spoke to hopeless the romantic in me. I wasn’t really sure if they were the right match in the beginning, but by the end I was thoroughly convinced. Did NOT see that proposal coming, though. I guess the threat of having Miles taken away from her forced her to recognize her true feelings for him. And I can’t help pointing out that Ivan well and truly saved Miles’ ass this time, and all without being asked. I think he did it more out of a sense of duty to slap down a vile political opponent than to actually save Miles’ ass. That makes me like it more. ---
**Author:** ![Spice\_Weasel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spice_weasel/32/5435_2.png) [@Spice\_Weasel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spice_Weasel)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2015, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-vorkosigan-saga-discussion-thread-progressive-spoilers/705680/215 "2015-01-21T21:01:16Z")
If Byerly Vorrutyer is in ImpSec, why doesn’t Miles know about it? Likewise, does Illyan know about Lady Alys? ---
**Author:** ![Spice\_Weasel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spice_weasel/32/5435_2.png) [@Spice\_Weasel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spice_Weasel)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2015, 9:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-vorkosigan-saga-discussion-thread-progressive-spoilers/705680/216 "2015-01-21T21:06:04Z")
> [@Fretful\_Porpentine](#): > > All of the little Shakespearean allusions / reimaginations are probably my favorite thing about these books. It makes me wish I’d read more Shakespeare, because I didn’t pick up on that stuff at all. ---
**Author:** ![Baron\_Greenback](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/baron_greenback/32/48_2.png) [@Baron\_Greenback](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baron_Greenback)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2015, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-vorkosigan-saga-discussion-thread-progressive-spoilers/705680/217 "2015-01-21T21:17:57Z")
> [@Spice\_Weasel](#): > > If Byerly Vorrutyer is in ImpSec, why doesn’t Miles know about it? Miles was Galactic Affairs and By is very definitely Domestic, I guess. Also, I get the impression that By’s “handler” is ultimately Gregor. ---
**Author:** ![Baron\_Greenback](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/baron_greenback/32/48_2.png) [@Baron\_Greenback](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baron_Greenback)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2015, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-vorkosigan-saga-discussion-thread-progressive-spoilers/705680/218 "2015-01-21T21:20:18Z")
> [@Spice\_Weasel](#): > > The letter he wrote her spoke to hopeless the romantic in me. It’s a great letter. Mind you, I, like Ekaterin, would like to see the draft that was done in verse… ---
**Author:** ![vontsira](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/51bf81/32.png) [@vontsira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vontsira)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2015, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-vorkosigan-saga-discussion-thread-progressive-spoilers/705680/219 "2015-01-21T21:27:23Z")
> [@Spice\_Weasel](#): > > Okay. I guess I retract the butter bug criticism. It’s weird, but I thought it was used nicely to tell Mark and Kareen’s story I about died when Cordelia brought out the old make-out sofa for Kou and Drou. God, she is underhanded. > > And I rather like Enrique. I’m partial to socially clueless geeks. **(I didn’t mind the slapstick at all, I think the book would be mostly depressing otherwise.)** > > And the entire dinner scene, I cackled like a loon. My husband thought I was nuts. The pinnacle was Illyan, ‘‘So, Madame Versoisson…’’ Re the slapstick (“critters” at the dinner party, and later the butter-fight) – de gustibus, I guess, and disputing is pointless. I hate the slapstick, you’re OK with it; and with Miles and Ekaterin finally successfully getting together, I find the book essentially upbeat – no reader is right or wrong. > [@Spice\_Weasel](#): > > If Byerly Vorrutyer is in ImpSec, why doesn’t Miles know about it? Although he’s now an Auditor, has he had any particular reason to know about By? Standard behaviour for “spook” outfits, is beyond-paranoid secrecy and concealment… > [@](#): > > Likewise, does Illyan know about Lady Alys? Sorry if I’m being dim – know what, about her? ---
**Author:** ![Spice\_Weasel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spice_weasel/32/5435_2.png) [@Spice\_Weasel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spice_Weasel)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2015, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-vorkosigan-saga-discussion-thread-progressive-spoilers/705680/220 "2015-01-21T21:27:49Z")
> [@Slow\_Moving\_Vehicle](#): > > **SpiceWeasel** , you’ve really laid down a challenge: how to talk about this great series of novels without spoiling the ones you haven’t yet read. A fine line to tread… Ah, yes, I’ve learned that all too well, trying to discuss it with my husband. I was trying to share with him, completely out of context, Aral’s quote about the difference between reputation and honor. What he said about the pain of being praised by the world when you know inside you don’t deserve it, struck me so intensely in that moment that it actually made me cry. (Very unusual thing for a book to make me cry.) I thought that would be safe to share with my husband because he’s read Barrayar and Shards of Honor and he knows all too well about Aral’s past on Komarr. So I just shared that bit with him, and he was like ‘‘AGHGH! You can’t tell me Aral is still alive! That’s a spoiler!’’ Oops. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-vorkosigan-saga-discussion-thread-progressive-spoilers/705680.md?page=10) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-vorkosigan-saga-discussion-thread-progressive-spoilers/705680.md?page=12)