# The Vorkosigan Saga Discussion Thread (Progressive Spoilers) **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [November 26, 2014, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-vorkosigan-saga-discussion-thread-progressive-spoilers/705680 "2014-11-26T16:23:58Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![MikeG](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mikeg/32/4329_2.png) [@MikeG](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MikeG)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2014, 2:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-vorkosigan-saga-discussion-thread-progressive-spoilers/705680/21 "2014-11-28T14:31:40Z")
“Reputation is what others think of you. Honor is what you know about yourself” I own the entire series, most of the early books have lost their covers due to constant rereading. Memory is the one I go back to most however. ---
**Author:** ![Frodo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/frodo/32/302_2.png) [@Frodo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frodo)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2014, 2:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-vorkosigan-saga-discussion-thread-progressive-spoilers/705680/22 "2014-11-28T14:35:33Z")
“Welcome to Barrayar, son. Here you go: have a world of wealth and poverty, wrenching change and rooted history. Have a birth; have two. Have a name. Miles means “soldier,” but don’t let the power of suggestion overwhelm you. Have a twisted form in a society that loathes and fears the mutations that have been its deepest agony. Have a title, wealth, power, and all the hatred and envy they will draw. Have your body ripped apart and re-arranged. Inherit an array of friends and enemies you never made. Have a grandfather from hell. Endure pain, find joy, and make your own meaning, because the universe certainly isn’t going to supply it. Always be a moving target. Live. Live. Live.” ---
**Author:** ![Typo\_Knig](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/cdc98d/32.png) [@Typo\_Knig](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Knig)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2014, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-vorkosigan-saga-discussion-thread-progressive-spoilers/705680/23 "2014-11-28T17:03:26Z")
> [@Frank](#): > > My favorite line in the entire series may be, “Want to see what I got?” Oily sales guy: “Lord Vorkosigan, living well is the best revenge.” Miles: “Where I come from someone’s head in a bag is the best revenge!” Not metaphorical at all! 😃 “And you should see what I do to kittens!” ---
**Author:** ![Spice\_Weasel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spice_weasel/32/5435_2.png) [@Spice\_Weasel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spice_Weasel)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2014, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-vorkosigan-saga-discussion-thread-progressive-spoilers/705680/24 "2014-11-28T17:15:44Z")
> [@Frodo](#): > > “Welcome to Barrayar, son. Here you go: have a world of wealth and poverty, wrenching change and rooted history. Have a birth; have two. Have a name. Miles means “soldier,” but don’t let the power of suggestion overwhelm you. Have a twisted form in a society that loathes and fears the mutations that have been its deepest agony. Have a title, wealth, power, and all the hatred and envy they will draw. Have your body ripped apart and re-arranged. Inherit an array of friends and enemies you never made. Have a grandfather from hell. Endure pain, find joy, and make your own meaning, because the universe certainly isn’t going to supply it. Always be a moving target. Live. Live. Live.” Just finished Mountains of Mourning, so this quote has a certain resonance. On to The Vor Game. > [@](#): > > Some of the covers the individual books have will raise a few eyebrows, otherwise. Why I love my Kindle, reason #458. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2014, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-vorkosigan-saga-discussion-thread-progressive-spoilers/705680/25 "2014-11-28T18:01:37Z")
When you’re done with the Vorkosigan books, Bujold has written some great fantasy novels, too. _Curse of Chalion_ and _Paladin of Souls_ are the two most popular, and feature some of the same cast (although the protagonists are different). _Wild Hunt_ is in a distant part of the same world. And _Spirit Ring_, one of her earliest novels, is set in a fantasy version of Renaissance Europe. I love 'em all, but some people are a bit down on _Wild Hunt_. “Greetings. I am the mouth of hell.” 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Slow\_Moving\_Vehicle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slow_moving_vehicle/32/291_2.png) [@Slow\_Moving\_Vehicle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slow_Moving_Vehicle)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2014, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-vorkosigan-saga-discussion-thread-progressive-spoilers/705680/26 "2014-11-28T19:25:09Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > When you’re done with the Vorkosigan books, Bujold has written some great fantasy novels, too. _Curse of Chalion_ and _Paladin of Souls_ are the two most popular, and feature some of the same cast (although the protagonists are different). _Wild Hunt_ is in a distant part of the same world. And _Spirit Ring_, one of her earliest novels, is set in a fantasy version of Renaissance Europe. I love 'em all, but some people are a bit down on _Wild Hunt_. > “Greetings. I am the mouth of hell.” > > 😃 Oh yeah. Ista in _Paladin_ is a more conflicted Cordelia, and a great character to spend time with. I love her relationship with the Bastard. “Now what? Are you going to extend this metaphor to its logical conclusion? It would be just like You, I think.” ---
**Author:** ![Andy\_L](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c67d28/32.png) [@Andy\_L](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Andy_L)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2014, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-vorkosigan-saga-discussion-thread-progressive-spoilers/705680/27 "2014-11-28T20:50:36Z")
> [@Recusant](#): > > Some of the covers the individual books have will raise a few eyebrows, otherwise. The legendary German cover to Warrior’s Apprentice [http://www.dendarii.co.uk/Covers/German/twa\_de.jpg](http://www.dendarii.co.uk/Covers/German/twa_de.jpg) ---
**Author:** ![Slow\_Moving\_Vehicle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slow_moving_vehicle/32/291_2.png) [@Slow\_Moving\_Vehicle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slow_Moving_Vehicle)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2014, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-vorkosigan-saga-discussion-thread-progressive-spoilers/705680/28 "2014-11-28T20:57:00Z")
> [@Andy\_L](#): > > The legendary German cover to Warrior’s Apprentice [http://www.dendarii.co.uk/Covers/German/twa\_de.jpg](http://www.dendarii.co.uk/Covers/German/twa_de.jpg) “Ve haff _vays_ of making you…a Dendarii…” ---
**Author:** ![Recusant](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/838e76/32.png) [@Recusant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Recusant)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2014, 1:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-vorkosigan-saga-discussion-thread-progressive-spoilers/705680/29 "2014-11-29T01:45:16Z")
> [@Andy\_L](#): > > The legendary German cover to Warrior’s Apprentice [http://www.dendarii.co.uk/Covers/German/twa\_de.jpg](http://www.dendarii.co.uk/Covers/German/twa_de.jpg) Well, you have to admit there is something impressive about managing to make Miles Vorkosigan physically intimidating. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2014, 4:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-vorkosigan-saga-discussion-thread-progressive-spoilers/705680/30 "2014-11-29T04:51:39Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > “Greetings. I am the mouth of hell.” > > 😃 “If he _doesn’t_ behave, I’ll feed him to the gods.” “You mean dogs, Lady Ista?” “Them too.” ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2014, 7:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-vorkosigan-saga-discussion-thread-progressive-spoilers/705680/31 "2014-11-29T07:04:12Z")
> [@Andy\_L](#): > > The legendary German cover to Warrior’s Apprentice [http://www.dendarii.co.uk/Covers/German/twa\_de.jpg](http://www.dendarii.co.uk/Covers/German/twa_de.jpg) Joe Pisocopo? ---
**Author:** ![aruvqan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aruvqan/32/2891_2.png) [@aruvqan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aruvqan)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2014, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-vorkosigan-saga-discussion-thread-progressive-spoilers/705680/32 "2014-11-29T17:35:00Z")
> [@Andy\_L](#): > > The legendary German cover to Warrior’s Apprentice [http://www.dendarii.co.uk/Covers/German/twa\_de.jpg](http://www.dendarii.co.uk/Covers/German/twa_de.jpg) THere have been some horrible covers [[battle nighty](http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/7/7a/Warriorsapprentice.jpg/200px-Warriorsapprentice.jpg)] and when I tweak the metadata in calibre for my ebooks, I go online for pretty much everything and check to see if there is a cover [I prefer](http://www.tor.com/images/stories/blogs/09_04/barrayar.jpg). ---
**Author:** ![Spice\_Weasel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spice_weasel/32/5435_2.png) [@Spice\_Weasel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spice_Weasel)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2014, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-vorkosigan-saga-discussion-thread-progressive-spoilers/705680/33 "2014-11-29T18:32:20Z")
The Vor Game is afoot! > [@](#): > > Cecil flashed a grin. “Quite. Plus your rather irritating habit of treating your superior officers as your, ah…” Cecil paused, apparently groping again for just the right word. > > “Equals?” Miles hazarded. > > “Cattle,” Cecil corrected judiciously. ---
**Author:** ![vontsira](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/51bf81/32.png) [@vontsira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vontsira)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2014, 8:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-vorkosigan-saga-discussion-thread-progressive-spoilers/705680/34 "2014-12-04T08:38:44Z")
This thread has been quiescent for several days. Spice Weasel – your most recent post mentioned that you were reading _The Vor Game_ . At the risk of being presumptuous: I’ve been unable to help wondering whether your response to that novel might have been the same as that on my brother’s part, a few years ago. I introduced him to the Vorkosigan series: reading it in chronology-of-events order, he was highly impressed with _Shards_ and _Barrayar_; thought \* The Warrior’s Apprentice \* was OK; but found himself hitting a brick wall with \* The Vor Game \*. He got as far as (I’ll be very general, to minimise “spoiling” risks) the point where two prominent characters chance to encounter each other in the same room of the same lock-up in a place relatively far-away in the “Wormhole Nexus”. He felt just plain outraged at what he saw, here, as unacceptable and unforgivable stretching of the long arm of coincidence – he put the book down there and then, and declared himself finished for all time with the Vorkosiverse and with Lois McMaster Bujold; and so far certainly, he has kept to that resolve. Anything in the “space opera” line is unusual fare for my brother – his tastes in fiction are normally a good deal more highbrow than mine: really, I feel it was remarkable that he liked the works as much as he did, for the space of time that he did before things went wrong. I’ll admit to \* TVG \* being my least favourite of all the Vorkosiverse novels – for multiple reasons, including my not being altogether happy with the coincidence mentioned above. I’ve concluded that I can, reluctantly, live with it – with thoughts along the lines of “if there can’t be a few improbabilities on the general sci-fi / fantasy scene, where and when can such things be allowed?”. ---
**Author:** ![Spice\_Weasel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spice_weasel/32/5435_2.png) [@Spice\_Weasel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spice_Weasel)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2014, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-vorkosigan-saga-discussion-thread-progressive-spoilers/705680/35 "2014-12-04T17:48:04Z")
> [@vontsira](#): > > I introduced him to the Vorkosigan series: reading it in chronology-of-events order, he was highly impressed with _Shards_ and _Barrayar_; thought \* The Warrior’s Apprentice \* was OK; but found himself hitting a brick wall with \* The Vor Game \*. He got as far as (I’ll be very general, to minimise “spoiling” risks) the point where two prominent characters chance to encounter each other in the same room of the same lock-up in a place relatively far-away in the “Wormhole Nexus”. He felt just plain outraged at what he saw, here, as unacceptable and unforgivable stretching of the long arm of coincidence – he put the book down there and then, and declared himself finished for all time with the Vorkosiverse and with Lois McMaster Bujold; and so far certainly, he has kept to that resolve. > > Anything in the “space opera” line is unusual fare for my brother – his tastes in fiction are normally a good deal more highbrow than mine: really, I feel it was remarkable that he liked the works as much as he did, for the space of time that he did before things went wrong. I’ll admit to \* TVG \* being my least favourite of all the Vorkosiverse novels – for multiple reasons, including my not being altogether happy with the coincidence mentioned above. I’ve concluded that I can, reluctantly, live with it – with thoughts along the lines of “if there can’t be a few improbabilities on the general sci-fi / fantasy scene, where and when can such things be allowed?”. I’m not sure I’ve reached that point in the novel yet (there was just a murder on the space station), but overall _The Vor Game_ is a lot more boring than the others. I was interested in the little mutiny scene and of course thrilled to see Aral Vorkosigan if only for a fleeting moment, but overall I’m not overly enthused. An improbable coincidence would not make me hate an entire series. I might raise my eyebrows a bit but I’m way more interested in character development and willing to suspend a lot of disbelief to that end. ---
**Author:** ![Slow\_Moving\_Vehicle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slow_moving_vehicle/32/291_2.png) [@Slow\_Moving\_Vehicle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slow_Moving_Vehicle)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2014, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-vorkosigan-saga-discussion-thread-progressive-spoilers/705680/36 "2014-12-04T18:03:04Z")
It picks up. Personally, that coincidence never bothered me overmuch, since it leads to some very nice character development later on in the story. And it’s not like wilder coincidences than that don’t happen in real life. ---
**Author:** ![vontsira](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/51bf81/32.png) [@vontsira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vontsira)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2014, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-vorkosigan-saga-discussion-thread-progressive-spoilers/705680/37 "2014-12-04T19:39:34Z")
> [@Spice\_Weasel](#): > > I’m not sure I’ve reached that point in the novel yet (there was just a murder on the space station), but overall _The Vor Game_ is a lot more boring than the others. I was interested in the little mutiny scene and of course thrilled to see Aral Vorkosigan if only for a fleeting moment, but overall I’m not overly enthused. > > An improbable coincidence would not make me hate an entire series. I might raise my eyebrows a bit but I’m way more interested in character development and willing to suspend a lot of disbelief to that end. > [@Slow\_Moving\_Vehicle](#): > > It picks up. Personally, that coincidence never bothered me overmuch, since it leads to some very nice character development later on in the story. And it’s not like wilder coincidences than that don’t happen in real life. Yes --will concede that (as discussed now and again on SDMB) there are a fair few highly amazing plot holes in real life. My brother tends to be something of a “my way or the highway” type; plus, I can’t help wondering whether his loathing of this particular coincidence was – at some level – a handy pretext for his not having to go on reading many more books in a milieu, “space opera”, which as mentioned is essentially not his thing. For my personal tastes, after _TVG_ the series perks-up splendidly; and there isn’t a post-_TVG_ book in it, which I have not very well enjoyed – pace the occasional and exceptional, for me not-so-good moment or episode. ---
**Author:** ![Spice\_Weasel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spice_weasel/32/5435_2.png) [@Spice\_Weasel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spice_Weasel)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2014, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-vorkosigan-saga-discussion-thread-progressive-spoilers/705680/38 "2014-12-04T20:58:33Z")
> [@vontsira](#): > > For my personal tastes, after _TVG_ the series perks-up splendidly; and there isn’t a post-_TVG_ book in it, which I have not very well enjoyed – pace the occasional and exceptional, for me not-so-good moment or episode. I was looking on Goodreads and not a single book of the many books in the series is rated anything under 4 stars. I thought that kind of remarkable. ---
**Author:** ![Baron\_Greenback](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/baron_greenback/32/48_2.png) [@Baron\_Greenback](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baron_Greenback)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2014, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-vorkosigan-saga-discussion-thread-progressive-spoilers/705680/39 "2014-12-04T21:12:15Z")
> [@vontsira](#): > > For my personal tastes, after _TVG_ the series perks-up splendidly; and there isn’t a post-_TVG_ book in it, which I have not very well enjoyed Same here. The author’s skill as a writer really starts to blossom. ---
**Author:** ![Andy\_L](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c67d28/32.png) [@Andy\_L](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Andy_L)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2014, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-vorkosigan-saga-discussion-thread-progressive-spoilers/705680/40 "2014-12-05T21:19:00Z")
> [@Slow\_Moving\_Vehicle](#): > > It picks up. Personally, that coincidence never bothered me overmuch, since it leads to some very nice character development later on in the story. And it’s not like wilder coincidences than that don’t happen in real life. Vor Game is also a bit unusual structurally - the first part (“Weatherman”) was published separately, and then second section is in a different place, with mostly different characters, and a different kind of menace. Still has some great stuff in it, though (and one of the funniest scenes in the series occurs toward the end of the book). [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-vorkosigan-saga-discussion-thread-progressive-spoilers/705680.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-vorkosigan-saga-discussion-thread-progressive-spoilers/705680.md?page=3)