Yet wasn’t Barrayar the planet that was isolated for 200 years? (I can’t remember right off how long the isolation was.) It is not unlike Japan in that way.
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And Jackson’s Whole? Mmm, maybe the less attempting-precise-identification the better, with that place…
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Capitalism run amok. Dare I say it…?
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I’ve certainly always seen likenesses in various ways, between Cetaganda and Japan (past and present).
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The emphasis on aesthetic and ritual reflected in Cetaganda certainly does remind me of Japan. I had a class once on Chinese & Japanese literature of a certain historical period (we read things like The Plum in the Golden Vase) and I saw a similar sort of parallel in the way, externally, women in China’s aristocratic classes appeared to hold little power, but in reality they did have a kind of power. It was fascinating to see how women in an ostensibly subjugated position managed to create their own power dynamics and influence their own lives in more subtle ways.
Going to come out with some maybe politically not very correct stuff here; but –
I get the picture that in male-dominated societies throughout history, women have managed to exert a fair degree of behind-the-scenes influence and control: men on the whole, want to have partners of the opposite sex, and – often – prefer to have a reasonable level of harmony with them, which gives women an “in” vis-a-vis affecting their men. And, the mother most often has a higher degree and intensity of interaction with the offspring – opportunity for influence there – than does the father.
The Cetaganda / Japan parallel which I envisage, is to some extent because, to be frank – and not meaning offense to any Japanese Dopers – I find from what I observe, the Japanese nation and culture as not very likeable. I see parallels thus, in exquisite art and craftsmanship, coexisting with much which – to outsiders anyway – comes across as sick and nasty. Plus, in the political sphere, episodes of harsh and ruthless imperialism and conquest. (JMO – I’d be glad to get better acquainted with things Japanese, and possibly revise my views.)
Of course, the political interests of Barrayar and Cetaganda are in opposition to each other, and the two realms’ cultures greatly differ from each other: goodness knows, there are aspects of Barrayar which are horrible – but with the point of view which the author chooses, the reader is likely to think, “the Barrayarans may sometimes be a loathsome people – but they’re my loathsome people !” Cetaganda no doubt seen, often to its disadvantage, through a Barrayaran lens.
The philosopher Nietzsche was a terrible sexist asshole, but one observation I always found interesting was that he viewed women as tricky and manipulative not as a defect of their biological sex but as a side-effect of their subjugation. Since they didn’t have power as it is classically defined, they found other ways to exert influence. I tend to despise broad generalizations about men or women, but I thought this was an interesting way to view human nature in general. And when you read a book like The Plum in the Golden Vase it’s certainly easy to see how the structure of that society (multiple wives & concubines) encouraged women to exert influence in more subtle ways.
I’d draw the line at generalizing Japanese culture as bad, but due in part to Japanese cultural isolation it IS radically different than many other cultures, and from the standard U.S. point of view rather alien. It is human nature not to trust things we don’t understand, and in some ways Japanese culture is difficult to understand. It doesn’t help that the most bizarre parts of it are routinely trotted out for the comedy/absurdity factor but really I think we are just seeing a caricature of it, the same way one might call U.S. culture crazy based on viewing Honey Boo Boo.
It’s worth considering, though, and the U.S. is pretty alien to many other cultures, that in terms of social behavior and values we are extremely far outliers maybe comparable to Japan in our extremeness. It’s just a different extreme. This recently came up in the debate on the censorship of the film The Interview because our free speech laws are so much more liberal than many other countries that some of them have a hard time grasping the concept that the government truly cannot censor free speech here.
As ‘‘weird’’ as Japan may seem to us, we’re actually pretty weird ourselves, by global standards.
ETA: I recognize all posters may not be from the U.S., just working with what I know!
Yes and that kind of feeds into the discussion we were having about Cordelia. She lives in Barrayaran culture but refuses to really embrace it, I think sometimes to the point of unfairness.
I accidentally found out ahead of time that he has a clone brother, but I thought the clone was fully grown and if he’s swapping identities with the kidnapped Miles that is likely not the case.
(Just showed up in the cell and discovered Galen, so these questions will be answered soon.)
I’m glad Miles and Elli got to bone and all, but man! Can’t the poor guy catch a break? I wouldn’t live on Barrayar either but somebody’s got to be up for the challenge.
I finished Brothers in Arms and would give it a solid 9.
I’m reading Mirror Dance now.
It’s riveting, but I can’t handle it… Miles lost in the cryochamber… I was afraid we were gonna lose Quinn, but I never thought Miles!!! Oh god, clone angst. I’d just about tear Mark’s face off myself if I were there… what a selfish idiot.
But actually… Thorne! I’m shocked he would endanger his crew like that, even given his personal feelings about Jackson’s Whole. That’s probably the most significant betrayal.
Mark, I think, may be my favorite character in the whole series. I’m sucker for stories about losing and regaining families, and he lost about the worst imaginable, and gained just about the best. The scene where Miles is being carried out of the room by Galen’s goons, and he’s yelling, “Mark! Your name is Mark!” at the poor half-mad clone just about breaks my heart.
I’ve never felt this way about a book series, ever. I’m pretty sure it’s like getting struck by lightning. I keep proselytizing Bujold to my friends but deep down I know the odds of them connecting with the characters on the same level are low. Not because they aren’t objectively good characters, but because this whole experience feels kind of whimsical and ‘‘where have you been all my life?’’ and that has to be a personal reaction more than a universal one. It would be like introducing my husband to people expecting that they, too, will fall head over heels for him.
Sr. Weasel finished Shards of Honor and will be starting Barrayar tonight. He’s intrigued but not hooked yet. If Barrayar doesn’t do it, I know The Warrior’s Apprentice will. I’m pretty sure he’s going to love Miles immediately. I think he will identify with him more than I did. I liked Miles at first, but it took lots of growing for me to love him. Now that I’ve experienced so much with him I think I’m just another one of his hapless, smitten mercenaries.
Maybe it is because I had a Dar in my life, so I can understand him. Being able to understand why he is such a jerk to his brother makes me a bit more sympathetic to him than most people [why does everybody assume that the ‘bad guy’ in a work needs to be hated instead of understood and pitied?] Can you not see there must be some redemption in his character we don’t see in the books - he has a wife that has stayed with him for 35+ years - and as they can ‘read’ each others emotions what can she see in him? Dag sees Fawn as a bright shimmering sparkling life force …
Everybody reads differently
If you go back in the mailing list archives, there is one person onlist who absolutely detests Ivan, because of how he was a self involved 18 year old guy and acted thusly [as a 15 year old hit on the maids and Elena Bothari, at 18 was rude to Elli Quinn] and she and I have had some knock down drag out feuds onlist. Yet Ivan is one of the more popular characters. <shrug> She hates him, I love him [Captain Vorpatrils Alliance is one of my favorite books. “I will follow you to the ends of the bunker”: <snicker>]
Actually, that leads me to another of Bujold’s great strengths–her ability to craft villainy on every point of the moral spectrum, from genuinely good, admirable, and heroic people who sometimes do deeply questionable things (we’re looking at you, Miles. Also, Aral), to complete and utter blackhearted monsters like Baron Ryoval, and just about everything in between, including lots of deeply ambiguous people who aren’t easy to classify as either villains or heroes (like Dar, or that wily and haunted Magnificent Bastard Ezar). Very often, with anybody short of Ryoval, she’s able to humanize even the vilest antagonists–we may not like them, but we (and often her protagonists) can sympathize with them, or pity them, or at least understand them. (Hell, even malices get some lines that cause one to feel a certain horrified pity for them.)
In an author’s note, Bujold notes that one of her “first readers” of Shards and Barrayar hated Bothari, and kept recommending changes to how that character was handled. Eventually Bujold just had to ignore those comments and go her own way.
She is 16 … not 10. [I have yet to see many voluptuous 10 year olds … ] The clones have been ‘pushed’ to mature faster, so while it may have been 10 years, she is actually closer to maturity, the rich bastards who want to use the bodies [to have their old nasty brains transplanted into] want the clone bodies as soon as possible.
I want one of the cat blankets … or some of the little designer pets - how about a quarter scale unicorn? [not the kitten tree, however.] And we need uterine replicators! Imagine not having to worry about being pregnant because you can have it all done inside a replicator! And gene cleaning!
Taura was 16… I thought it said the clones were 9 or 10 years old but the girl had the body of a 20 year old. Either way, despicable. However old she was in years she had no ability psychologically to understand what the hell was going on. He of ALL PEOPLE should know.
AFAIC the flashback was instant karma. Though at least he had the decency to tell the truth about what he did. He’s not evil, just traumatized to the point of total self-absorption.
I like this, though. I like an author pushing a character to the limits of likeability. One must presume his redemption will be all the sweeter for it.
I feel like this series provides at least two solid contributions to the ‘‘sympathetic rapists’’ thread that keeps popping up in CS every now and then. When I first read Shards of Honor, I thought the scene with Cordelia and Vorrutyer was very tropey, but where I give credit to Bujold is that the scene didn’t just exist to create momentary tension. There is nothing that happens in the Vorkosiverse that doesn’t have real, enduring consequences. And I have to give her credit for the fact that, rather than having that be a throwaway moment of suspense, she’s used it as a springboard to examine themes of sexuality, sexual assault and crimes of war in a pretty unflinching and nuanced way.
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I want one of the cat blankets … or some of the little designer pets - how about a quarter scale unicorn? [not the kitten tree, however.] And we need uterine replicators! Imagine not having to worry about being pregnant because you can have it all done inside a replicator! And gene cleaning!
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Agreed on all points. I’ve commented before that I wanted a blanket made out of live puppy ears but people always take that the wrong way for some reason. I have no desire to harm innocent puppies. I just mean it would be warm and soft, like a cat blanket. Bujold understands!
As for uterine replicators… Reading Barrayar was really hard after I lost my own baby in September. It was kind of agony knowing Cordelia’s had a chance and mine didn’t. And it’s not like one difficult moment to endure, the entire book’s central conceit is a dying unborn child, with the death of Lady Vorpatril’s husband and the traumatic birth of Ivan thrown in there for good measure. Having Cordelia bravely set out to save her son was like living a kind of sad, vicarious fantasy. Though I am, of course, glad he made it.
I am re-reading Barrayar again with my husband at a pace of a chapter a night. I suggested several times he might prefer to jump straight to The Warrior’s Apprentice (even though I think two scenes in that book you really can’t understand with the same depth without reading Barrayar first) but I couldn’t really tell him about the baby theme of Barrayar without major spoilers. I’ll admit I’m not looking forward to having those themes dragged up again, though it didn’t ruin my enjoyment of the book the first time so I presume it won’t the second time, either. If anything it just gave me a greater stake in Miles’ survival.
So far he read the first chapter and his only response was, ‘‘Cordelia’s rude.’’
He doesn’t love Cordelia. But by the time Barrayar is through I think he will at least respect her a little more.
It’s quite a ride.
I have no desire to harm innocent puppies. I just mean it would be warm and soft, like a cat blanket. Bujold understands!