# The voter ID Thread **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 24, 2017, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-voter-id-thread/787346 "2017-05-24T15:57:21Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2017, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-voter-id-thread/787346/21 "2017-05-24T17:23:31Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > I’m curious what group(s) of people you had in mind with this line, and how many there are in this boat (genuine curiosity, not trying to argue via questions). Are you talking about the midwife example from above? Something else? Just your generic poor person that has the hardship of taking the bus to some county office building and standing in line all day? I’m talking about clients I’ve had and others I’ve heard about. One woman was a 68-year-old born and adopted in Puerto Rico. She had a PR birth certificate, but it was invalidated when PR invalidated all of their birth certificates in 2010. She could not obtain a replacement with the other ID she had unless she flew to PR. That’s true for a lot of Puerto Ricans. Another was an elderly African American woman who had her purse stolen with her identity documents in it. The DMV couldn’t help her obtain the necessary replacement documents or direct her where to go. Without lawyers, she might not have been able to sort out the process, and even with them, the process was far beyond “reasonable effort.” > [@Slash1972](#): > > I’m curious where you got this information, since according to the study linked earlier “the majority of those who report not having identification are younger than 25 years of age” I’m not talking about who has ID, but who has the most difficulty getting it. It tends to be people whose names don’t match their birth certificate or who don’t have a birth certificate or other core identity document like a Social Security card. This disproportionately affects the elderly, African-Americans, and Puerto Ricans, for reasons both historical and recent. ---
**Author:** ![DrCube](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a3d4f5/32.png) [@DrCube](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrCube)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2017, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-voter-id-thread/787346/22 "2017-05-24T17:39:47Z")
> [@Silver\_lining](#): > > About half of the states have voter ID laws. Many of these states now offer a\*\* free voter photo ID card\*\* if you don’t have another form of valid photo ID. > > So what’s the problem if it’s free to assure the integrity of the election? People who vote without voter ID’s show up to the same place on election day for the most part. It’s not free though, as mentioned. Most people have to take a day off work just to get the ID, even if they don’t have to pay a fee at the DMV. That’s after doing the same thing to get their social security cards, birthday certificates, etc, which aren’t free. And they have to pay for transportation to all these places. You’ll find that for poor or disabled people, that can run into the hundreds of dollars if not more. And that’s if it’s even possible to get in the first place. I knew a guy who couldn’t get his birth certificate without ID, but couldn’t get his ID without a birth certificate. Eventually they let him use a signed affidavit from his doctor swearing he was him to get the birth certificate, but guess who often won’t have a doctor at all? Poor people. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2017, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-voter-id-thread/787346/23 "2017-05-24T17:41:02Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > A person can rent an apartment or something in the city without an ID? If it’s in one spouse’s name, why would the other spouse need an ID? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2017, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-voter-id-thread/787346/24 "2017-05-24T17:44:03Z")
> [@Silver\_lining](#): > > …As for voter fraud, its highest in poorer urban areas, which likely have the most amount of places to vote due to the population size. In your haste, you neglected to offer citation. Here is your first opportunity. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2017, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-voter-id-thread/787346/25 "2017-05-24T17:48:34Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > The opposition case is, as I understand it: > > The motive for the ID requirement to open a bank account is to ensure that the bank can reliably identify the account holder, both for purposes of reporting income to the IRS and ensuring that future withdrawals are handed to the correct person. There is, in other words, a very understandable reason to require ID for bank dealings. > > But the motive for the ID requirement for voting is to reduce the number of minority/poor people who choose to vote. There is not, says this theory, any sufficiently strong reason to require ID that overcomes this invidious motive. The proponents of this theory point out that while we often hear discussions about preventing voter fraud, there are very few cases of documented in-person voter fraud, and many more people who would otherwise vote but won’t because of a lack of ID. On balance, then, the Voter ID requirement does vastly more harm than good. To use your analogy, it would be as if the bank decided it wanted a new type of ID to be used for opening or accessing accounts. People who had used their previous form of identification for all of their lives will no longer be able to open or access accounts. The new ID isn’t hard to get, and for most people, it is below trivial. However, it is not to all people, and the people for whom it is hard to get are the exact people that the bank does not want as customers anymore. Just as republicans keep saying that voter ID isn’t about disenfranchisement, but about “election integrity”, democrats keep pointing out that it is not Voter ID they have a problem with, but the manner in which it is implemented. Anyone who brings up the democratic opposition to voter ID either does not, or is pretending not to, understand this distinction. > [@Velocity](#): > > If the Democrats allow voter ID laws to stand, they may potentially lose votes - but [since a large majority of Americans support voter ID](http://www.politico.com/story/2012/04/poll-70-back-voter-id-laws-075300), Democratic opposition to voter ID will cost the Dems votes, too. > Voter ID \*sounds \*reasonable, no matter whether it is truly needed or not. You can put forward a lot of statistics about “Only one fraudulent vote in ten thousand” or something like that, but voter ID \*sounds \*reasonable - and probably always \*will \*sound reasonable. Therefore it will be a vote-losing stance to oppose it. Only if people stay poorly informed on the issue, and think that the only reason to oppose the implementation of Voter ID is because you want illegal votes. It is possible that people will stay misinformed on the issue, but I feel it is my duty to inform people about it, and not to disseminate false information, that makes people realize that their “reasonable” position lacked nuance, and on a second look will realize that the implementation of voter ID has been done for cynical and partisan reasons. Any reasonable and honest person, once informed on the issue would see that it is more nuanced than it appears on the surface, and would be happy with a voter ID system that did not make it harder for people to vote. > [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > I don’t think that’s valid. > > The audit you mention found over 500 illegally cast ballots. There was only one voter-impersonation done by in-person voting. But it’s not clear that an audit is capable of finding out how many cases of voter-impersonation there are. The [study itself](https://s3.amazonaws.com/dl.ncsbe.gov/sboe/Post-Election%20Audit%20Report_2016%20General%20Election/Post-Election_Audit_Report.pdf) notes this (pages 5-7). In addition, the one case is one confirmed case - they were apparently unsure of a bunch of others. It does seem as thought the integrity of our elections is a bit problematic. The problem is, is that focussing on voter ID is much work with little gain. Is there a reason, do you think, that other avenues of voter fraud, like absentee ballots, are not being addressed by republicans concerned about election integrity? ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2017, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-voter-id-thread/787346/26 "2017-05-24T17:50:21Z")
> [@Richard\_Parker](#): > > I’m not talking about who has ID, but who has the most difficulty getting it. It tends to be people whose names don’t match their birth certificate or who don’t have a birth certificate or other core identity document like a Social Security card. This disproportionately affects the elderly, African-Americans, and Puerto Ricans, for reasons both historical and recent. If someone doesn’t have an ID, how can their name not match their birth certificate? Can’t the ID just have the name on their birth certificate? How do these elderly people receive Social Security benefits, or see a doctor, or pick up prescriptions without an ID? (serious question I’ve wondered about since the ID related threads. Whenever I go to the doctor, I have to show an ID. And I have to show an ID to pickup any medications from a pharmacy) ---
**Author:** ![DrCube](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a3d4f5/32.png) [@DrCube](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrCube)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2017, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-voter-id-thread/787346/27 "2017-05-24T17:50:50Z")
> [@DrCube](#): > > And that’s if it’s even possible to get in the first place. I knew a guy who couldn’t get his birth certificate without ID, but couldn’t get his ID without a birth certificate. Eventually they let him use a signed affidavit from his doctor swearing he was him to get the birth certificate, but guess who often won’t have a doctor at all? Poor people. Oh, and this process? It took _months_. Months of wasted back and forth driving and phone calls for competing bureaucracies to finally agree on a workaround for their incredibly inflexible policies. Imagine if his ID had expired in October of an election year and he just found out he had lost his birth certificate? That’s a middle class white guy who is disenfranchised that year. If it was that hard for him, imagine a poor, elderly woman with mobility issues on a fixed income. Or a single mom with two jobs? ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2017, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-voter-id-thread/787346/28 "2017-05-24T17:51:21Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > If it’s in one spouse’s name, why would the other spouse need an ID? A fair point. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2017, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-voter-id-thread/787346/29 "2017-05-24T17:52:45Z")
> [@DrCube](#): > > It’s not free though, as mentioned. Most people have to take a day off work just to get the ID, even if they don’t have to pay a fee at the DMV. That’s after doing the same thing to get their social security cards, birthday certificates, etc, which aren’t free. And they have to pay for transportation to all these places. You’ll find that for poor or disabled people, that can run into the hundreds of dollars if not more. > > And that’s if it’s even possible to get in the first place. I knew a guy who couldn’t get his birth certificate without ID, but couldn’t get his ID without a birth certificate. Eventually they let him use a signed affidavit from his doctor swearing he was him to get the birth certificate, but guess who often won’t have a doctor at all? Poor people. And you also have to keep in mind that all of this work is not really getting the potential voter all that much. On an individual level, voting is one of the least effective ways of giving your voice as to preferred social policy. Spending the time and money required to get a voter ID on nearly anything else will give your life more meaning and pleasure than spending the time and money so that you can stand in line for a few hours, and register your opinion at a polling place once every few years. As a society, having a voting populace is important, so it is in society’s best interest to ensure as many people can and do vote as possible. As an individual, voting only makes sense if it is not too inconvenient. ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2017, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-voter-id-thread/787346/30 "2017-05-24T17:53:14Z")
> [@Silver\_lining](#): > > About half of the states have voter ID laws. Many of these states now offer a\*\* free voter photo ID card\*\* if you don’t have another form of valid photo ID. > > So what’s the problem if it’s free to assure the integrity of the election? Because “free” photo ID is never quite _free_. Even assuming that you can just turn up at the DMV with a birth certificate, you still have to get to the DMV. Where I used to live in the USA, this was something like 20-30 miles with no applicable public transit. In Texas, a voter ID law was struck down specifically because some people had to travel upwards of _120 miles each way_ to get to the nearest place they could get photo ID. So you have to find a way to get there, plus this has to be during the hours the DMV is open - usually business hours, so if your transit is long, you’re going to have to take time off work. Then there’s getting your birth certificate, which can be a bit of an ordeal, and is also _not free_. If you were born in Puerto Rico, your birth certificate expired in 2010, and in order to get it renewed, you need a photo ID card, so you’re just shit outta luck. Even ignoring the fringe cases where getting photo ID is just straight-up impossible (of which there are likely still more than actual documented cases of in-person voter impersonation fraud), what you’re left with is a whole lot of people (people who largely lean democrat) who have to jump through more annoying hoops, and for what? The kind of voter fraud that photo ID laws prevent _almost doesn’t exist_. > [@](#): > > People who vote without voter ID’s show up to the same place on election day for the most part. > > As for voter fraud, its highest in poorer urban areas, which likely have the most amount of places to vote due to the population size. This is directly contrary to all available evidence; do you have a cite? Double voting and impersonation fraud don’t even remotely make sense. Like, you’d have to be a _gigantic_ idiot to do it. You put in a ton of extra work for the sake of one extra vote - and that extra vote can net you _years_ in prison. You’d have to be a complete _moron_ to take those odds. What makes you think it’s common? ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2017, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-voter-id-thread/787346/31 "2017-05-24T17:55:16Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > I don’t think that’s valid. > > The audit you mention found over 500 illegally cast ballots. There was only one voter-impersonation done by in-person voting. But it’s not clear that an audit is capable of finding out how many cases of voter-impersonation there are. The [study itself](https://s3.amazonaws.com/dl.ncsbe.gov/sboe/Post-Election%20Audit%20Report_2016%20General%20Election/Post-Election_Audit_Report.pdf) notes this (pages 5-7). In addition, the one case is one confirmed case - they were apparently unsure of a bunch of others. Okay, how many orders of magnitude are they off by? 1? 2? Even if there were _one hundred_ times as many unsubstantiated cases that all turned out to be legit, the math _still_ wouldn’t work. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2017, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-voter-id-thread/787346/32 "2017-05-24T17:56:19Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > If someone doesn’t have an ID, how can their name not match their birth certificate? Can’t the ID just have the name on their birth certificate? You generally need multiple forms of ID (utility bill, student ID, whatever) in addition to the core document like a birth certificate. The mismatch emerges from those. > [@Slash1972](#): > > How do these elderly people receive Social Security benefits, or see a doctor, or pick up prescriptions without an ID? (serious question I’ve wondered about since the ID related threads. Whenever I go to the doctor, I have to show an ID. And I have to show an ID to pickup any medications from a pharmacy) It’s a problem for them. In the case I know the most, she had been seeing the same primary physician for decades (who did not require her ID) but he died and his successor started asking for ID. That’s how she came onto our radar in the first place. She had a Social Security card and received Social Security checks, but that was not sufficient core ID to get a voter ID in the absence of a birth certificate. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2017, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-voter-id-thread/787346/33 "2017-05-24T18:00:31Z")
> [@Richard\_Parker](#): > > It’s a problem for them. In the case I know the most, she had been seeing the same primary physician for decades (who did not require her ID) but he died and his successor started asking for ID. That’s how she came onto our radar in the first place. She had a Social Security card and received Social Security checks, but that was not sufficient core ID to get a voter ID in the absence of a birth certificate. How did she cash the checks without an ID? ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2017, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-voter-id-thread/787346/34 "2017-05-24T18:02:50Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > How did she cash the checks without an ID? I don’t know for sure, but I can imagine lots of possibilities. You don’t need ID to deposit a check. And it may be that her husband did the banking. ---
**Author:** ![D\_Anconia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/67e7ee/32.png) [@D\_Anconia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Anconia)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2017, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-voter-id-thread/787346/35 "2017-05-24T18:03:00Z")
> [@DrCube](#): > > Lots of people have problems showing ID for these activities. That’s why they don’t participate in them. From a practical standpoint, how do people get through life without doing ANY of those activities? ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2017, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-voter-id-thread/787346/36 "2017-05-24T18:05:23Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > How did she cash the checks without an ID? Once you have a bank account, you can get an ATM card and do all the depositing/cashing you want with that card. In general, I find the "You need the ID to do X, therefore you should have one to do Y to be inconclusive. It could be that the burdens of obtaining the ID for X and obtaining the ID for Y are quite different. To me, it carries no more weight than the equally silly “If you have to get drug tested to work why don’t you need to get tested for welfare?” ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2017, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-voter-id-thread/787346/37 "2017-05-24T18:05:50Z")
> [@Richard\_Parker](#): > > I don’t know for sure, but I can imagine lots of possibilities. You don’t need ID to deposit a check. And it may be that her husband did the banking. Fair enough, thanks! ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2017, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-voter-id-thread/787346/38 "2017-05-24T18:07:05Z")
A lot of the OP’s list is nonsense. You don’t need an ID to get a protest permit. You don’t need ID to gamble, drink, smoke, etc. unless you look young. You don’t need ID to rent or buy a house or buy a cell phone. Some of the ways you do these things require ID. Many do not, as evidenced by the thousands of people who survive OK without ID. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2017, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-voter-id-thread/787346/39 "2017-05-24T18:07:08Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > Once you have a bank account, you can get an ATM card and do all the depositing/cashing you want with that card Don’t you need an ID to open a bank account? ---
**Author:** ![DrCube](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a3d4f5/32.png) [@DrCube](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrCube)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2017, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-voter-id-thread/787346/40 "2017-05-24T18:12:39Z")
> [@D\_Anconia](#): > > From a practical standpoint, how do people get through life without doing ANY of those activities? Well, for one thing, IDs _expire_. Meaning, they could have gotten through the vast majority of their life just fine, but _now_, at _this time_, _this_ election season, they can’t. Not to mention, “obtaining food and shelter” isn’t on the list, which is basically all you need to “get through life”. The rest is optional. I’m sure every one of those people who are or will be disenfranchised by voter ID laws have a different story. I won’t try to generalize. Just use a little imagination, and the law of large numbers, and you’ll easily convince yourself that this is a significant problem with those laws. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-voter-id-thread/787346.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-voter-id-thread/787346.md?page=3)