# The VW Volkswagon Emissions Scandal - longer and deeper than first thought **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [December 10, 2015, 11:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-vw-volkswagon-emissions-scandal-longer-and-deeper-than-first-thought/740063 "2015-12-10T11:37:08Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![WordMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e8c25b/32.png) [@WordMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WordMan)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2015, 1:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-vw-volkswagon-emissions-scandal-longer-and-deeper-than-first-thought/740063/21 "2015-12-22T13:59:20Z")
> [@Hari\_Seldon](#): > > Interesting to read in this thread about the connection between the design team and the upper administration. It never seemed plausible to me that this a rogue team unknown to the higher ups. Of course, which is why I say “which we all obviously know” in my post. But what is discussed online is very different vs. what facts are going to be used to support any criminal cases, civil cases, and dare I say it, governmental intervention that plays out. This article helps me understand how that approach may be formed. Much more evidence will be forthcoming. It will be interesting to see what communications existing amongst the key players and leadership. I suspect this rigid German company over-documented ;). ---
**Author:** ![Machine\_Elf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/82dd89/32.png) [@Machine\_Elf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Machine_Elf)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2015, 2:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-vw-volkswagon-emissions-scandal-longer-and-deeper-than-first-thought/740063/22 "2015-12-22T14:22:27Z")
> [@Diceman](#): > > So far, VW’s behavior suggests that we won’t be seeing this. They’ve been in “bunker mode” from the day the scandal broke, trying to eek by as cheaply as possible. I mean, their “fix” for the European cars consists of adding a [“flow straightener”](http://fortune.com/2015/11/25/volkswagen-emissions-fix/) – a flimsy plastic mesh that looks like something you’d put in the kitchen sink to stop silverware from falling into the garbage disposal. I expect the EPA is going to be much less tolerant of bullshit like that. [How the Volkswagen ‘Flow Straightener’ Really Works](http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/2015/12/vw-flow-straightener-really-works/) Short version: expect more EGR, and consequently reduced engine life/reliability. Good news for VW owners in the US: this fix probably won’t be applied to your cars, just to European ones. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2015, 2:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-vw-volkswagon-emissions-scandal-longer-and-deeper-than-first-thought/740063/23 "2015-12-22T14:30:52Z")
I hear the engineers responsible for this have been sent to the Russian Front by General Burkhalter. ---
**Author:** ![jz78817](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jz78817/32/1028_2.png) [@jz78817](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jz78817)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2015, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-vw-volkswagon-emissions-scandal-longer-and-deeper-than-first-thought/740063/24 "2015-12-22T15:10:19Z")
> [@WordMan](#): > > Update: in an article behind their paywall, the NYTimes discusses the executive at the center of the fraud, their head of Engines and R&D, Wolfgang Hatz. In addition to discussing his repeated statements in public about the impossibility of meeting U.S. regulations, it also spells out his direct connections with the heads of VW:. Which is bullshit, since the Chevy Colorado/GMC Canyon and BMW X5 were given certificates of compliance after the EPA confirmed they don’t pollute more on the road than in the lab. Again, what they’re really saying is “it’s impossible to meet US regulations and keep the cars as cheap as you want to sell them for.” ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2015, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-vw-volkswagon-emissions-scandal-longer-and-deeper-than-first-thought/740063/25 "2015-12-22T15:17:50Z")
C’mon, VW is just adopting the language of America in calling its fraud a series of “errors”. We routinely have athletes, politicians and regular citizens framing their crimes and sleazy behavior as “mistakes”, so why shouldn’t VW try the same ploy? ---
**Author:** ![usedtobe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ec9cab/32.png) [@usedtobe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/usedtobe)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2015, 2:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-vw-volkswagon-emissions-scandal-longer-and-deeper-than-first-thought/740063/26 "2015-12-23T02:26:24Z")
No, no, no! CRIMES are ‘errors’. Deliberate FRAUD is ‘mistake’. Take notes, this WILL be on the Final! ---
**Author:** ![Senegoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senegoid/32/6606_2.png) [@Senegoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Senegoid)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2015, 3:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-vw-volkswagon-emissions-scandal-longer-and-deeper-than-first-thought/740063/27 "2015-12-23T03:20:36Z")
> [@WordMan](#): > > Much more evidence will be forthcoming. It will be interesting to see what communications existing amongst the key players and leadership. I suspect this rigid German company over-documented ;). It will be interesting to see if forensic audits of their books show up an unusual spike in their purchases of paper shredders. ---
**Author:** ![WordMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e8c25b/32.png) [@WordMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WordMan)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2016, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-vw-volkswagon-emissions-scandal-longer-and-deeper-than-first-thought/740063/28 "2016-01-08T17:21:16Z")
From an article behind NYTimes’ paywall: > [@](#): > > Citing German privacy laws, Volkswagen has refused to provide emails or other communications among its executives to attorneys general in the United States, impeding American investigations into the company’s emissions-cheating scandal, according to officials in several states. > > The revelation signals a turning point in the now openly fractious relations between Volkswagen and American investigators, after claims by the Justice Department, in its own inquiry this week, that the company had recently “impeded and obstructed” regulators and provided “misleading information.” ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2016, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-vw-volkswagon-emissions-scandal-longer-and-deeper-than-first-thought/740063/29 "2016-01-08T18:51:31Z")
Perhaps they are simply asserting the European [“right to be forgotten.”](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right_to_be_forgotten) Emails detailing how VW conspired to pollute could really have an impact on VW’s reputation. ---
**Author:** ![WordMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e8c25b/32.png) [@WordMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WordMan)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2016, 1:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-vw-volkswagon-emissions-scandal-longer-and-deeper-than-first-thought/740063/30 "2016-01-14T13:09:59Z")
From behind the NYTimes paywall, regarding VW CEO meeting with the US Govt: > [@](#): > > The visit was meant to help VW smooth relations with the authorities in the United States who have grown frustrated at the delays in resolving the issue. VW has repeatedly apologized for the problem, which caused Mr. Müller’s predecessor, Martin Winterkorn, to lose his job. However, in an interview with NPR in Detroit before the meeting in Washington, Mr. Müller appeared to stumble when asked whether the company had lied to regulators. He described the issue as “a technical problem” not an “ethical” one. > > “We didn’t lie,” he said. “We didn’t understand the question first and then we worked since 2014 to solve the problem.” > > “We made a default, we had not the right interpretation of the American law,” he also said. > > NPR said that VW subsequently requested a follow-up interview in which Mr. Müller tried to back away from his earlier statement to explain what happened. “One reason could be a misunderstanding,” he said. “One reason could be that people and employees did their work not in the right way. There are different possible reasons for that.” > > The company later issued a statement acknowledging that Mr. Müller’s choice of words in English “may have resulted in some confusion.” > > “We have been open and transparent about not just the mistakes that were made, but also about the culture that allowed for such lapses in judgment,” the company said. “We are working hard to make things right, renew our culture and make a better Volkswagen.” Yeah, that’s gonna work. :smack::rolleyes::mad: ---
**Author:** ![Crotalus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crotalus/32/41_2.png) [@Crotalus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crotalus)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2016, 1:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-vw-volkswagon-emissions-scandal-longer-and-deeper-than-first-thought/740063/31 "2016-01-14T13:22:38Z")
I heard an interview with the CEO on Marketplace, probably the same one quoted in the NYT story. He was totally not owning up to fraud or lying. It’s all a misunderstanding and a technical issue. Weasel. ---
**Author:** ![Diceman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Diceman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diceman)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2016, 1:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-vw-volkswagon-emissions-scandal-longer-and-deeper-than-first-thought/740063/32 "2016-01-14T13:40:52Z")
> [@Crotalus](#): > > I heard an interview with the CEO on Marketplace, probably the same one quoted in the NYT story. He was totally not owning up to fraud or lying. It’s all a misunderstanding and a technical issue. Weasel. Again, the the comparison between this and how General Motors handled the ignition switch crisis is like night & day. GM admitted from the beginning that they screwed up, and the problem was allowed to fall thru the cracks. VW is acting like a teenager trying to talk his way out of trouble after he crashed the car. Unfortunately, tho, we’re not talking about teenagers, and I’m seriously starting to wonder if VW might try to use the plant in Chattanooga as a bargaining chip. The governor of Tennessee is already worried that VW might shut down the plant. ---
**Author:** ![botsgotme](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/91b2a8/32.png) [@botsgotme](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/botsgotme)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2016, 1:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-vw-volkswagon-emissions-scandal-longer-and-deeper-than-first-thought/740063/33 "2016-01-14T13:50:35Z")
Could VW executives visiting the USA be subject to arrest and criminal charges? ---
**Author:** ![Diceman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Diceman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diceman)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2016, 1:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-vw-volkswagon-emissions-scandal-longer-and-deeper-than-first-thought/740063/34 "2016-01-14T13:59:50Z")
Another thought: The theoretical maximum fine the EPA could impose is (IIRC) $46 Billion. If they decide to hit for the bleachers and impose the maximum fine, then I’ll bet VW will decide to walk away from the North American market before it pays the fine. After all, VW may own the European market, but in America they’re a second-string player. Even if the fine is “only” $10 Billion, that would probably eat up VW’s North American profits for the next decade. Depending on how the math ends up working out, it’s possible they could end up following a strategy of walking away from the US for a few years, and then (when there’s a different administration in the White House) they’d come back and offer to re-enter the US market (creating a lot of jobs) if the US agrees to forget about that little “misunderstanding.” I can definitely see them using the threat of walking away (destroying thousands of jobs) to try to strongarm the government into imposing a relatively small fine. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2016, 3:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-vw-volkswagon-emissions-scandal-longer-and-deeper-than-first-thought/740063/35 "2016-01-14T15:02:13Z")
> [@Diceman](#): > > Unfortunately, tho, we’re not talking about teenagers, and I’m seriously starting to wonder if VW might try to use the plant in Chattanooga as a bargaining chip. The governor of Tennessee is already worried that VW might shut down the plant. But nobody who is making decisions on what VW penalties may have to pay gives a rat’s ass about some Tennessee plant. It’s 2,500 jobs. Why would CARB – which seems in the driver’s seat in terms of determining the technical fix to the problem – or the plaintiffs in the class action suit, or the Federal judge in California overseeing the suit, care about 2,500 jobs in Tennessee? If VW threatened to abandon the United States, either by closing the factory or as a strategic decision, it would make everything worse. Like you said, GM owned up to its mistakes, and for VW to literally run and hide from the law would make this scandal a thousand times worse. ---
**Author:** ![WordMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e8c25b/32.png) [@WordMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WordMan)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2016, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-vw-volkswagon-emissions-scandal-longer-and-deeper-than-first-thought/740063/36 "2016-01-14T16:12:14Z")
> [@botsgotme](#): > > Could VW executives visiting the USA be subject to arrest and criminal charges? No clue. But if the country of Argentina could end up in a U.S. court sued by some investor hedge funds for trying to devalue their bonds, I suspect VW could be hooked in somehow. I guess my observation would be that the U.S. is typically probusiness and will actively look for ways to slap a wrist and move on. Were any Financial players convicted coming out of the Recession? But if you behave like VW, it appears like they are actively asking to be put in their place. They are like Pete Rose and gambling. ---
**Author:** ![Diceman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Diceman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diceman)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2016, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-vw-volkswagon-emissions-scandal-longer-and-deeper-than-first-thought/740063/37 "2016-01-14T17:37:27Z")
> [@WordMan](#): > > No clue. But if the country of Argentina could end up in a U.S. court sued by some investor hedge funds for trying to devalue their bonds, I suspect VW could be hooked in somehow. > > I guess my observation would be that the U.S. is typically probusiness and will actively look for ways to slap a wrist and move on. Were any Financial players convicted coming out of the Recession? But if you behave like VW, it appears like they are actively asking to be put in their place. > > They are like Pete Rose and gambling. Corporate malfeasance doesn’t usually involve jail time, unless you’re talking about something wildly malevolent. So-called “criminal charges” usually involve just levelling a fine, and perhaps forcing an agreement for better oversight. Argentina has to deal with US courts because they’re broke and need access to the US credit market. If they could get money somewhere else, they would happily e-mail a picture of their middle finger to their US creditors. ---
**Author:** ![Cell\_Guy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/df705f/32.png) [@Cell\_Guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cell_Guy)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2016, 2:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-vw-volkswagon-emissions-scandal-longer-and-deeper-than-first-thought/740063/38 "2016-01-15T02:21:22Z")
In the meantime the value of my affected vehicle has dropped 40%. But hey, I got a gift card I can use at a VW dealership. Wee. ---
**Author:** ![WordMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e8c25b/32.png) [@WordMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WordMan)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2016, 12:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-vw-volkswagon-emissions-scandal-longer-and-deeper-than-first-thought/740063/39 "2016-01-15T12:04:22Z")
The French government has announced that several of Renault’s vehicles do not comply with their air quality standards, but that it appears to be a case of sloppy/unsupervised testing, not intentional fraud. ETA: **Diceman** , yeah, I was just being silly. But I do think a large class-action suit will happen in the U.S. and that there will be some sort of deeper action by the U.S. government, but not sure what shape it will take. ---
**Author:** ![botsgotme](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/91b2a8/32.png) [@botsgotme](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/botsgotme)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2016, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-vw-volkswagon-emissions-scandal-longer-and-deeper-than-first-thought/740063/40 "2016-01-15T15:42:45Z")
Well, it was an active conspiracy, approved and vetted by the top management of the company. At the very least, the senior management CEO, board of directors are guilty of fraud, misrepresentation, and violation of USA EPA laws. They could easily face jail time, if convicted in a Federal Court. It is sorta like DeBeers…you won’t see any DeBeers Mines executives travelling to the USA-they would be subject to immediate arrest. As for VW playing “hardball” (threatening to close a USA plant iof the charges are not dropped)-that would cause serious diplomatic rifts between the USA and Germany. Most likely, VW will mount a big “public apology” campaign, and pay a lot of Washington lawyers to get the charges dropped. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-vw-volkswagon-emissions-scandal-longer-and-deeper-than-first-thought/740063.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-vw-volkswagon-emissions-scandal-longer-and-deeper-than-first-thought/740063.md?page=3)