# The Walking Dead; 2.07 "Pretty Much Dead Already" (open spoilers) **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [November 28, 2011, 1:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-walking-dead-2-07-pretty-much-dead-already-open-spoilers/604298 "2011-11-28T01:30:43Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![mr.jp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/48db29/32.png) [@mr.jp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mr.jp)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2011, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-walking-dead-2-07-pretty-much-dead-already-open-spoilers/604298/101 "2011-11-29T17:06:00Z")
I could see myself as agreeing with you. The problem is that after these last episodes in season 2, the zombies are totally defanged, and don’t really seem to be worth all the worry. Just let the old man keep his zombies, move into a neighbouring farm, and build a fence or something. Supplies are in the almost zombieless town. Doesn’t seem like extreme measures are necessary. ---
**Author:** ![Fiveyearlurker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/da6949/32.png) [@Fiveyearlurker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiveyearlurker)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2011, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-walking-dead-2-07-pretty-much-dead-already-open-spoilers/604298/102 "2011-11-29T17:19:34Z")
> [@mr.jp](#): > > Why is everyone going on saying this? We saw a lot of dead bodies in the cars early this season, which fully disproves that theory. This is a good point. Is there some reason that this doesn’t disprove that particular hypothesis about everyone becoming zombies? ---
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2011, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-walking-dead-2-07-pretty-much-dead-already-open-spoilers/604298/103 "2011-11-29T17:24:39Z")
I don’t find the “everyone is a carrier” thing particularly shocking or interesting myself. Okay, so everyone is an asymptomatic carrier until they die. So what? You’re still going to do your best to avoid dying for the sake of, you know, not dying. Being bitten by a zombie is a likely cause of death, so you have to be prepared for the possibility of being zombiefied, but even if you die some other way - big deal, you become a zombie like there was a good chance you would’ve anyway. You probably will be dead and not aware of it. So I get that this is supposed to be unsettling to our survivors, sort of hope-breaking, but I don’t understand why, I don’t see what difference it makes. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2011, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-walking-dead-2-07-pretty-much-dead-already-open-spoilers/604298/104 "2011-11-29T17:34:05Z")
> [@Stoid](#): > > Yep. Gaping hole here. I guess we are supposed to imagine that people repeatedly got bitten by a single zombie, killed it, and went on to become zombies themselves? > > it’s especially buggy in terms of Sofia: she’s a little kid, how did she manage to get bitten and not simultaneously get torn to shreds? Tiny little nibble, scoots away, dies and rises? > > I have to say I’ve gotten VERY spoiled by the tight, believable writing on Breaking Bad, it’s made me much less patient with cavernous plot holes. Single zombies aren’t much of a match for a human. You can push them off, and they’re slow. I’m not at all incredulous that the average zombie encounter goes something like a grab, a struggle, a nip somewhere on the body and a run to safety. A human can easily get away, it’s getting away without a bite that’s the hard part. Also, you have to factor in how fat and plodding most of America is. Those guys are the ones who got eaten. The slim people got bit and ran to safety only to change later. Also, I imagine most of the zombies we see were taken by single zombies, not a crowd. A single zombie probably eats until they’re full and wanders off. Maybe a pound or two of meat taken off. It’s when a pack pulls down someone they start skeletonizing it. Most zombies we see have significant damage, probably from getting nibbled on. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2011, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-walking-dead-2-07-pretty-much-dead-already-open-spoilers/604298/105 "2011-11-29T17:42:48Z")
> [@Fiveyearlurker](#): > > This is a good point. Is there some reason that this doesn’t disprove that particular hypothesis about everyone becoming zombies? Those people could have died early in the outbreak, and hadn’t been infected yet. Although, I wonder how they died at all, shot by looters? Suicide? ---
**Author:** ![Lady\_of\_the\_Lake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e19adc/32.png) [@Lady\_of\_the\_Lake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lady_of_the_Lake)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2011, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-walking-dead-2-07-pretty-much-dead-already-open-spoilers/604298/106 "2011-11-29T17:46:34Z")
> [@Cat\_Whisperer](#): > > Regarding Glenn and Maggie - is she bi-polar or what? She goes hot and cold in microseconds. When she and Glenn are together, I keep thinking about that saying about sticking your dick in the crazy. > [@marshmallow](#): > > Nah, that’s just how the writers portray the women on this show. You noticed it too? There is not one woman who I can relate to, much less find likable. I wonder if there are \*any \*female writers on staff? > [@marshmallow](#): > > The weird thing about Maggie is when she was first introduced she rode on a horse and used a baseball bat on a walker’s head like some kind of Amazon warrior. That was Maggie, right? Yes, that was her. There was that, and what I thought was (stupid yet…) awesome random drugstore sex and then they decided to make her bitchy and weak. ---
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2011, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-walking-dead-2-07-pretty-much-dead-already-open-spoilers/604298/107 "2011-11-29T17:48:30Z")
Oh, I don’t think anyone mentioned it because it was relatively subtle, but during the scene where the walkers are breaking out of the barn, Glen takes a glance at Maggie, and she nods at him - and then he starts shooting with his shotgun. So at least she realizes what must be done - she seems like she might be a candidate for leaving with the group. Which would be okay - if they toned down her crazy she’s cool enough. ---
**Author:** ![Dingbang](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ac8455/32.png) [@Dingbang](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dingbang)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2011, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-walking-dead-2-07-pretty-much-dead-already-open-spoilers/604298/108 "2011-11-29T18:07:24Z")
> [@SenorBeef](#): > > Oh, I don’t think anyone mentioned it because it was relatively subtle, but during the scene where the walkers are breaking out of the barn, Glen takes a glance at Maggie, and she nods at him - and then he starts shooting with his shotgun. So at least she realizes what must be done - she seems like she might be a candidate for leaving with the group. Which would be okay - if they toned down her crazy she’s cool enough. I caught that and thought it was important. Maggie turns to Glen (her man now!) and says in effect, "Yes, yes, go ahead and kill them. I understand. It’s okay."She knew he needed to help but would be worried about her reaction, so she told him she understood. A nice touch in a wonderfully crafted scene. ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2011, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-walking-dead-2-07-pretty-much-dead-already-open-spoilers/604298/109 "2011-11-29T18:19:54Z")
> [@Stoid](#): > > Seriously? You are amazed? You really think Shane sacrificing himself was a better choice? Would that be yours? I really doubt it, and that’s no slam. I wouldn’t have murdered Otis, that’s for sure. > [@](#): > > [ol] > [li]Shane is younger, fitter and stronger, making him MUCH more likely to actually make it back than Otis[/li][li]It was Otis’ fault they were there in the first place[/li][li]Shane wants to go on living.[/li][/ol] None of this absolves Shane. Even Shane knows what he did was wrong. ---
**Author:** ![whole\_bean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/96bed5/32.png) [@whole\_bean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/whole_bean)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2011, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-walking-dead-2-07-pretty-much-dead-already-open-spoilers/604298/110 "2011-11-29T18:27:07Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > Those people could have died early in the outbreak, and hadn’t been infected yet. > > Although, I wonder how they died at all, shot by looters? Suicide? _Maybe_ . . . . but what (other than a zombie bite) killed that guy seatbelted into his jeep in the traffic jam that obviously arose as a result of the zombie accopoclypse? A pre-infection suicide. Again _maybe_, and if so, that was a good juke by the writers, but I don’t recall any evidence of suicide in that scene. Also, if he managed to avoid infection in that crowd should’t there be others like him? As for the epidemic, think of it like this. In the early days, someone is infected (patient(s) 0) and bites a vicitm, maybe many before being coralled. The victim(s) escapes before being devoured–when not in a herd, the zombies are pretty easy to shake. The newly infected, instead of being quarantined, are treated like we treat our sick people, maybe some go home, others go to a hospital. The ones in the hospital die, reanimate, and bite a caregiver. The caregiver escapes before being devoured. Again, when not in a heard, the zombies are pretty easy to shake. The ones at home die, reanimate, and bite a family member. The family member escapes befor being devoured. Do this a couple thousand times. At some point, the sick also start dying out on the road. ---
**Author:** ![Feyrat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/fbc32d/32.png) [@Feyrat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Feyrat)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2011, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-walking-dead-2-07-pretty-much-dead-already-open-spoilers/604298/111 "2011-11-29T18:43:22Z")
> [@mr.jp](#): > > Why is everyone going on saying this? We saw a lot of dead bodies in the cars early this season, which fully disproves that theory. No it doesn’t. I said in an earlier thread - we don’t know all the things that kill zombies. Maybe they DID zombify and then starved to death. Maybe the high heat of being closed up in the car in Georgia heat baked them - anyone know the baking point of zombies? Maybe they don’t need food but they DO need the hydration supplied by bloody meat, and they all dried up. We have no idea what killed the dead people in the cars in the first place. They were apparently dead and dessicated but most of them look essentially unharmed. Why did they die? > [@Spoke](#): > > Exactly so. _ **28 Days Later** _ came the closest to having scientifically believable zombie-like creatures, and it only did so by having the creatures not actually be zombies. > > (Even _28 Days Later_ had scientifically incredible aspects, like the 10-second incubation period, for example. Didn’t keep me from enjoying the movie.) My biggest problem with the 28 Days Zombies was that they didn’t attack one another. That was the point where I had a problem. > [@SenorBeef](#): > > Am I the only one that thinks Shane isn’t being the bad guy? My problem is that Shane is both right AND the bad guy. People seem to be taking the “Shane is a murdering, rapey jackass” and using it to negate what he’s saying, which is foolish. Shane is both RIGHT and BAD. > [@Dingbang](#): > > I caught that and thought it was important. Maggie turns to Glen (her man now!) and says in effect, "Yes, yes, go ahead and kill them. I understand. It’s okay."She knew he needed to help but would be worried about her reaction, so she told him she understood. A nice touch in a wonderfully crafted scene. I thought that was a beautiful little moment. Both that Glenn would stop to “ask” and that Maggie would give her permission, while still trying to comfort her father. ---
**Author:** ![whole\_bean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/96bed5/32.png) [@whole\_bean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/whole_bean)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2011, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-walking-dead-2-07-pretty-much-dead-already-open-spoilers/604298/112 "2011-11-29T18:48:14Z")
> [@EllisDee](#): > > I thought they’d painted the picture pretty clearly. After hiding in that house that Daryl found the first night she was lost, Sophia fell off the same cliff that Daryl did and died a relatively quick and painless death, which is why the doll was right there. Then she came back as a zombie and wandered onto the farm, where Otis corraled her into the barn. > > This requires the assumption that anyone who dies becomes a zombie, but they pretty well confirmed that in-show when Rick was surprised to find out Lorie was pregnant. That means the CDC guy _didn’t_ tell Rick his wife was pregnant, so the only real cliff-hanger left for him to tell Rick in that whispered exchange is that the whole world is already infected. I do not think Sophie’s death is confirmation of the everyone-is-infected hypothesis. She was bitten on her neck. They discuss it on TTD. As has been previously been stated. Escaping from a single-zombie encounter seems very posisble, if not likley. Escaping from a single-zombie encounter unbitten is the challenge. My guess is that she was bitten, escaped, took refuge in the house–where she died-and was later found by Otis in the swamp. There’s onyl one way top solve this though: Webisode. ---
**Author:** ![whole\_bean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/96bed5/32.png) [@whole\_bean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/whole_bean)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2011, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-walking-dead-2-07-pretty-much-dead-already-open-spoilers/604298/113 "2011-11-29T18:54:54Z")
> [@Feyrat](#): > > No it doesn’t. I said in an earlier thread - we don’t know all the things that kill zombies. Maybe they DID zombify and then starved to death. Maybe the high heat of being closed up in the car in Georgia heat baked them - anyone know the baking point of zombies? Maybe they don’t need food but they DO need the hydration supplied by bloody meat, and they all dried up. > > We have no idea what killed the dead people in the cars in the first place. They were apparently dead and dessicated but most of them look essentially unharmed. Why did they die? The everyone-is-infected hypothesis is still alive, but no closer to being proven. If it’s true I am ambivalent. Practically, it adds a anothert step to the undertaking process–hole to the head. I guess it plays off our fears of the dead, and on reflection, that’s nothing small. ---
**Author:** ![Dingbang](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ac8455/32.png) [@Dingbang](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dingbang)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2011, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-walking-dead-2-07-pretty-much-dead-already-open-spoilers/604298/114 "2011-11-29T18:56:20Z")
> [@Odesio](#): > > I wouldn’t have murdered Otis, that’s for sure. > > None of this absolves Shane. Even Shane knows what he did was wrong. Then you both would have died and the boy back at the farm would have died. In a world full of desperate, terrible choices, you get no credit for pointless nobility. I think Shane is wrestling with this, but he understands that he did what he had to do. That doesn’t make it easy and sometimes even the right choice will leave you troubled forever. The fact that he’s troubled by it, even though in an intellectual, logical sense he is confident of his actions, shows he is much more of a decent guy than he’s getting credit for here. ---
**Author:** ![MeanJoe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/meanjoe/32/5693_2.png) [@MeanJoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MeanJoe)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2011, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-walking-dead-2-07-pretty-much-dead-already-open-spoilers/604298/115 "2011-11-29T19:15:18Z")
> [@Odesio](#): > > I wouldn’t have murdered Otis, that’s for sure. Then, to be blunt, you would have died there. I don’t fault Shane for making the decision he made. It was a hard decision, not without emotional consequences he has to live with but still the right decision when facing no other option. I have a hard time agreeing that it was “wrong” - it was what he had to do to save Carl’s life. No way both Shane and Otis could have gotten away alive at that point and back to the farm to save Carl. I have to agree with SenorBeef, I don’t see Shane as a “bad guy” at this point. I believe the stress and inner turmoil is going to bring him to make poor decisions that may change my opinion. In fact, I’m 99% positive that will happen but at this point in the show, Shane is right about what needs to be done. MeanJoe ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2011, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-walking-dead-2-07-pretty-much-dead-already-open-spoilers/604298/116 "2011-11-29T19:16:55Z")
> [@Dingbang](#): > > Shane is wrestling with this, but he understands that he did what he had to do. That doesn’t make it easy and sometimes even the right choice will leave you troubled forever. The fact that he’s troubled by it, even though in an intellectual, logical sense he is confident of his actions, shows he is much more of a decent guy than he’s getting credit for here. Rick made a similar choice when he handcuffed Merle at the top of that building in Atlanta. He did it because Merle was threatening the safety of the group and there was a good chance he was going to start killing people. The difference is that Rick wasn’t afraid to admit what he did. If Shane thought he did the right thing he wouldn’t have any problems telling the truth about what happened to Otis. ---
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2011, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-walking-dead-2-07-pretty-much-dead-already-open-spoilers/604298/117 "2011-11-29T19:21:52Z")
What good would it do to tell the truth? People are bad at making hard decisions and it would’ve only sewn hatred between the two groups. Why not make the family think Otis heroically sacrificed himself so they feel better about it? What benefit does telling everyone what happened have? ---
**Author:** ![Surbey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/4491bb/32.png) [@Surbey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Surbey)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2011, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-walking-dead-2-07-pretty-much-dead-already-open-spoilers/604298/118 "2011-11-29T19:26:04Z")
I think my favorite part of the whole episode is when Shane starts passing out guns. He goes first to Daryl who gives this “hell yeah, bout time” kinda look that I absolutely love. ---
**Author:** ![whole\_bean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/96bed5/32.png) [@whole\_bean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/whole_bean)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2011, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-walking-dead-2-07-pretty-much-dead-already-open-spoilers/604298/119 "2011-11-29T19:32:17Z")
> [@Surbey](#): > > I think my favorite part of the whole episode is when Shane starts passing out guns. He goes first to Daryl who gives this “hell yeah, bout time” kinda look that I absolutely love. I’m pretty sure he actually said, “Hell yeah.” Team Shane! ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2011, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-walking-dead-2-07-pretty-much-dead-already-open-spoilers/604298/120 "2011-11-29T19:32:30Z")
> [@SenorBeef](#): > > What good would it do to tell the truth? People are bad at making hard decisions and it would’ve only sewn hatred between the two groups. Why not make the family think Otis heroically sacrificed himself so they feel better about it? What benefit does telling everyone what happened have? If it was the right thing to do, why would it have sown hatred between the two groups? Plus, after the mid-season finale I think it’s quite clear that Shane isn’t concerned about sowing the seeds of friendship between the two groups. No, Shane doesn’t tell the truth about Otis’ death because he knows that everyone would think him a monster. i.e. He knows what he did was morally wrong. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-walking-dead-2-07-pretty-much-dead-already-open-spoilers/604298.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-walking-dead-2-07-pretty-much-dead-already-open-spoilers/604298.md?page=7)