# The Walking Dead; 2.07 "Pretty Much Dead Already" (open spoilers) **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [November 28, 2011, 1:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-walking-dead-2-07-pretty-much-dead-already-open-spoilers/604298 "2011-11-28T01:30:43Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2011, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-walking-dead-2-07-pretty-much-dead-already-open-spoilers/604298/121 "2011-11-29T19:35:39Z")
> [@Odesio](#): > > If it was the right thing to do, why would it have sown hatred between the two groups? Plus, after the mid-season finale I think it’s quite clear that Shane isn’t concerned about sowing the seeds of friendship between the two groups. No, Shane doesn’t tell the truth about Otis’ death because he knows that everyone would think him a monster. i.e. He knows what he did was morally wrong. He could know everyone would think he’s a monster and still believe what he did was morally right. If you live in some places announcing you’re an atheist or gay or a Muslim could make the people around you think you’re a monster. You’d still be morally neutral. ---
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2011, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-walking-dead-2-07-pretty-much-dead-already-open-spoilers/604298/122 "2011-11-29T19:39:09Z")
> [@Odesio](#): > > If it was the right thing to do, why would it have sown hatred between the two groups? Plus, after the mid-season finale I think it’s quite clear that Shane isn’t concerned about sowing the seeds of friendship between the two groups. No, Shane doesn’t tell the truth about Otis’ death because he knows that everyone would think him a monster. i.e. He knows what he did was morally wrong. People aren’t rational. His action was a rational but emotionally difficult one, and a lot of people simply don’t have the stomach to make, or understand, that sort of decision. And there’s no point in it - why not let the farm group think their guy went out as a hero instead of making them swallow a distasteful but rational death? Quite frankly, it would be a dick move to tell them the truth - it makes them feel worse for no reason. ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2011, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-walking-dead-2-07-pretty-much-dead-already-open-spoilers/604298/123 "2011-11-29T19:41:11Z")
> [@SenorBeef](#): > > People aren’t rational. His action was a rational but emotionally difficult one, and a lot of people simply don’t have the stomach to make, or understand, that sort of decision. And there’s no point in it - why not let the farm group think their guy went out as a hero instead of making them swallow a distasteful but rational death? Quite frankly, it would be a dick move to tell them the truth - it makes them feel worse for no reason. And you would see it the same way if you were Otis, his wife or his friends? A rational decision that was totally moral? ---
**Author:** ![whole\_bean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/96bed5/32.png) [@whole\_bean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/whole_bean)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2011, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-walking-dead-2-07-pretty-much-dead-already-open-spoilers/604298/124 "2011-11-29T19:41:32Z")
> [@Odesio](#): > > If it was the right thing to do, why would it have sown hatred between the two groups? Plus, after the mid-season finale I think it’s quite clear that Shane isn’t concerned about sowing the seeds of friendship between the two groups. No, Shane doesn’t tell the truth about Otis’ death because he knows that everyone would think him a monster. i.e. He knows what he did was morally wrong. Horseplop! It would have been pointless and risky to tell this group of strangers that he just shot one of theirs to save Carl.\* At that time, all he knew (outside of appearances) of Herchel’s band was that they shot a little boy The great thing about this show (and this genre in general) is that it wipes away the veneer of bullshit that allows folks to prance around so sure of their own morality when in truth, they’d almost all to a man kill another if it meant protecting their own. It removes the moral hazard created by mercenary armies and drone strikes. \*Let’s not lose sight of this. If Shane doesn’t kill Otis, then in all likelihood, Shane dies, Otis dies, and Carl dies. You can stroke your beard and cluck your tongue in condenmation of Shane, but the truth is, your “morality” would have resulted in three deaths. His resulted in one. ---
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2011, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-walking-dead-2-07-pretty-much-dead-already-open-spoilers/604298/125 "2011-11-29T19:43:50Z")
> [@Odesio](#): > > And you would see it the same way if you were Otis, his wife or his friends? A rational decision that was totally moral? Yes, that’s exactly the point. The decision is either rational or it isn’t. But the emotional reaction will obviously vary by how close you are to the guy who got the wrong end of the stick. You’re arguing against your own point. It doesn’t go from a correct decision to a wrong one based on who you’re being sympathetic to. This is why Shane made the right call (what benefit would having Shane, Otis, and Carl all die serve?), but at the same time it was a hard decision that the farm family would have a hard time dealing with emotionally. Instead of giving them that grief, and the turmoil between groups, why not make them feel good about it? It’s actually an act of kindness. ---
**Author:** ![MeanJoe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/meanjoe/32/5693_2.png) [@MeanJoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MeanJoe)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2011, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-walking-dead-2-07-pretty-much-dead-already-open-spoilers/604298/126 "2011-11-29T19:43:51Z")
> [@Odesio](#): > > Rick made a similar choice when he handcuffed Merle at the top of that building in Atlanta. He did it because Merle was threatening the safety of the group and there was a good chance he was going to start killing people. The difference is that Rick wasn’t afraid to admit what he did. If Shane thought he did the right thing he wouldn’t have any problems telling the truth about what happened to Otis. I disagree (respectfully) entirely. First of all, even “right” decisions are not always easy to reconcile emotionally, psychologically, and morally within one’s own mind/body/soul. That Shane wasn’t cavalier about what happened and spilled the full details to everyone is not evidence that the decision was wrong or that Shane knew he was wrong - it is evidence that he knows he killed someone else to save Carl’s life and his own. That is all. Secondly, the comparison to Rick is not good. There was no question of what was going to happen with Shane and Otis. There was no other way out of that situation. Shane and/or Otis were absolutely, positively, going to die and Carl was not going to get the medical supplies needed to save his life. Merle -may- have started killing people but that was not the only possible outcome. How Rick left Merle hand-cuffed to the pipe left room for more than one outcome, including the group AND Merle living (as in fact happened). Rick had zero problem with his decision until he was confronted by Merle’s brother and his fury at leaving his brother there to possibly die. MeanJoe ---
**Author:** ![whole\_bean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/96bed5/32.png) [@whole\_bean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/whole_bean)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2011, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-walking-dead-2-07-pretty-much-dead-already-open-spoilers/604298/127 "2011-11-29T19:44:04Z")
> [@Odesio](#): > > And you would see it the same way if you were Otis, his wife or his friends? A rational decision that was totally moral? And you would see it the same way if you were Rick and the fat ass who shot your son also bogged down the rescue mission. See how this works? ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2011, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-walking-dead-2-07-pretty-much-dead-already-open-spoilers/604298/128 "2011-11-29T19:44:53Z")
> [@whole\_bean](#): > > And you would see it the same way if you were Rick and the fat ass who shot your son also bogged down the rescue mission. See how this works? Yeah, I think Rick wouldn’t approve of Shane murdering Otis. ---
**Author:** ![whole\_bean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/96bed5/32.png) [@whole\_bean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/whole_bean)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2011, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-walking-dead-2-07-pretty-much-dead-already-open-spoilers/604298/129 "2011-11-29T19:47:02Z")
> [@Odesio](#): > > Yeah, I think Rick wouldn’t approve of Shane murdering Otis. Well then Rick’s a dipshit. Tubby was going to die anyway. ---
**Author:** ![mr.jp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/48db29/32.png) [@mr.jp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mr.jp)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2011, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-walking-dead-2-07-pretty-much-dead-already-open-spoilers/604298/130 "2011-11-29T19:53:45Z")
> [@Feyrat](#): > > No it doesn’t. I said in an earlier thread - we don’t know all the things that kill zombies. Maybe they DID zombify and then starved to death. Maybe the high heat of being closed up in the car in Georgia heat baked them - anyone know the baking point of zombies? Maybe they don’t need food but they DO need the hydration supplied by bloody meat, and they all dried up. I guess these things are possible, but it seems like a much more simple conclusion to draw that people who are not infected are not reanimated. Also, in the episode with the old people home in Atlanta. I think if non-infected people are rejuvenated once they die, the people who ran that facility would’ve known that, and made some precautions against it. ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Whisperer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cat_whisperer/32/4839_2.png) [@Cat\_Whisperer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Whisperer)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2011, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-walking-dead-2-07-pretty-much-dead-already-open-spoilers/604298/131 "2011-11-29T20:02:29Z")
> [@SenorBeef](#): > > People aren’t rational. His action was a rational but emotionally difficult one, and a lot of people simply don’t have the stomach to make, or understand, that sort of decision. And there’s no point in it - why not let the farm group think their guy went out as a hero instead of making them swallow a distasteful but rational death? Quite frankly, it would be a dick move to tell them the truth - it makes them feel worse for no reason. It’s the Dr. McCoy Effect - I can see the conversation Shane/Spock would have had with the farm people; “I shot Otis and sacrificed him so that I could save Carl. If I hadn’t, we both would have died, and Carl would have died, too.” “You shot Otis? YOU MONSTER!” “Yeah, but I saved Carl! It was a tough call in a bad situation!” “You shot Otis! You monster!” ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Whisperer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cat_whisperer/32/4839_2.png) [@Cat\_Whisperer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Whisperer)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2011, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-walking-dead-2-07-pretty-much-dead-already-open-spoilers/604298/132 "2011-11-29T20:03:48Z")
> [@whole\_bean](#): > > Well then Rick’s a dipshit. Tubby was going to die anyway. Rick’s been a dipshit the whole time they’ve been on the farm. Hopefully Sophie’s death and Shane’s rebellion will shake him out of it. ETA: Regarding Shane, he’s had a pretty shitty deal when you think of it. He had Lori and Carl, and was willing to step up and look after them, and then through no one’s fault, he’s tossed off to the side like yesterday’s garbage. Yay, his best friend’s back, but boo, just lost his woman and new step-son. And as an added bonus, he gets to stick around and watch them being a happy family. His idea to leave the group was probably the best one. ---
**Author:** ![Feyrat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/fbc32d/32.png) [@Feyrat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Feyrat)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2011, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-walking-dead-2-07-pretty-much-dead-already-open-spoilers/604298/133 "2011-11-29T20:05:03Z")
> [@mr.jp](#): > > I guess these things are possible, but it seems like a much more simple conclusion to draw that people who are not infected are not reanimated. > > Also, in the episode with the old people home in Atlanta. I think if non-infected people are rejuvenated once they die, the people who ran that facility would’ve known that, and made some precautions against it. I think that’s a silly argument. No one really knows how ANYTHING works at this point. And how would you make provision for that, besides just going through and shooting all the old people in the head right now? ---
**Author:** ![MeanJoe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/meanjoe/32/5693_2.png) [@MeanJoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MeanJoe)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2011, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-walking-dead-2-07-pretty-much-dead-already-open-spoilers/604298/134 "2011-11-29T20:26:49Z")
> [@Odesio](#): > > Yeah, I think Rick wouldn’t approve of Shane murdering Otis. That also does not make Rick right and Shane wrong. What we have in the characters in this show are 3 points on the continuum of survival. Dale is at one far end, his humanity at all costs even survival and Shane is quickly moving towards the other far end of survival at the cost of his humanity. Everyone else is scattered along that line. It seems to me that Rick is leaning towards Dale’s end but living that way has resulted in poor decision after poor decision based upon his sense of right and wrong that keep putting the group at risk. So you’ll have to forgive me if I do not think Rick’s opinion or approval actually equates to being “right”. ---
**Author:** ![MeanJoe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/meanjoe/32/5693_2.png) [@MeanJoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MeanJoe)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2011, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-walking-dead-2-07-pretty-much-dead-already-open-spoilers/604298/135 "2011-11-29T20:35:26Z")
Oh, and just my opinion on the people in the cars… I think they died of natural causes, i.e. dehydration and possible starvation. The vehicles on the freeway were bumper-to-bumper. In the flashbacks, we see people camped out on chairs beside their cars, cooking meals, etc. Clearly they were stuck there and unable to go further in their vehicles due to the traffic jam(s). Insert a sudden swarm of zombies into that situation, people would either fight or flight. Flight could only take two possible avenues, either they physically run or they lock themselves into the nearest perceived safe place - their cars. Unfortunately, we already know if a zombie thinks there is food inside a house, car, hiding place, etc., they will stay there unless another food source lures them away. I think that is exactly what happened. Many people locked themselves in their cars and were immediately surrounded by zombies and the people could now not exit their vehicles. Trapped there until they ran out of water and/or food, which would happen quickly inside a locked car with the windows up in the summer heat. Whether they just died or died and reanimated as zombies, being contained inside a locked up vehicle in that summer sun day after day would have to result in people/zombie jerky. ---
**Author:** ![mr.jp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/48db29/32.png) [@mr.jp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mr.jp)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2011, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-walking-dead-2-07-pretty-much-dead-already-open-spoilers/604298/136 "2011-11-29T20:52:51Z")
> [@Feyrat](#): > > I think that’s a silly argument. No one really knows how ANYTHING works at this point. And how would you make provision for that, besides just going through and shooting all the old people in the head right now? I assumed that some of the old people must have died of natural causes at some point. (And then they would’ve known.) But it’s possible that they didn’t. ---
**Author:** ![Labtrash](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/labtrash/32/528_2.png) [@Labtrash](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Labtrash)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2011, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-walking-dead-2-07-pretty-much-dead-already-open-spoilers/604298/137 "2011-11-29T20:59:25Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > Those people could have died early in the outbreak, and hadn’t been infected yet. > > Although, I wonder how they died at all, shot by looters? Suicide? From my post upthread, the sound effect they used when they moved limbs on the car zombies was a “crunchy” sound, like they were dried up or something. I think they were zombies, and just got caught in their seatbelts, and then were dessicated from the GA heat. ETA Beaten by **Mean Joe** ---
**Author:** ![TBG](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c89c15/32.png) [@TBG](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TBG)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2011, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-walking-dead-2-07-pretty-much-dead-already-open-spoilers/604298/138 "2011-11-29T21:00:42Z")
> [@simster](#): > > As per sophie - my guess is that she too got caught in the river and wounded somehow, and died there - thats where the doll was - probably sometime the next day - long enough to take refuge in the other house the night before. Dale was tracking her, but about a day too late. I just don’t see how the timeline would fit. That’s way too much ground for a little girl to have covered in the timeframe between her going missing and Otis shooting Carl. Particularly if she was wounded at some point. Regarding the dead bodies in the cars, I don’t think they prove much. Hypothetically, the zombie disease could’ve been bite only at first then mutated and gone airborne. ---
**Author:** ![DianaG](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/7ab992/32.png) [@DianaG](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DianaG)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2011, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-walking-dead-2-07-pretty-much-dead-already-open-spoilers/604298/139 "2011-11-29T21:10:05Z")
> [@MeanJoe](#): > > Then, to be blunt, you would have died there. I don’t fault Shane for making the decision he made. It was a hard decision, not without emotional consequences he has to live with but still the right decision when facing no other option. I have a hard time agreeing that it was “wrong” - it was what he had to do to save Carl’s life. No way both Shane and Otis could have gotten away alive at that point and back to the farm to save Carl. > > I have to agree with SenorBeef, I don’t see Shane as a “bad guy” at this point. I believe the stress and inner turmoil is going to bring him to make poor decisions that may change my opinion. In fact, I’m 99% positive that will happen but at this point in the show, Shane is right about what needs to be done. > > MeanJoe Why do people keep overlooking the fact that Shane didn’t just kill Otis, he left him to just about the most horrible death imaginable? He could have shot him in the head and still gotten out of there, since I’m pretty sure that Otis didn’t actually HAVE to be screaming bloody murder to get the attention of a bunch of zombies that were ALREADY chasing him. Yeah, he’s right about a lot of things. He’s still a rotten motherfucker, though. ---
**Author:** ![mr.jp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/48db29/32.png) [@mr.jp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mr.jp)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2011, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-walking-dead-2-07-pretty-much-dead-already-open-spoilers/604298/140 "2011-11-29T21:12:35Z")
> [@DianaG](#): > > Why do people keep overlooking the fact that Shane didn’t just kill Otis, he left him to just about the most horrible death imaginable? He could have shot him in the head and still gotten out of there, since I’m pretty sure that Otis didn’t actually HAVE to be screaming bloody murder to get the attention of a bunch of zombies that were ALREADY chasing him. It seems they react to sound, and so might find him more interesting in that case. At least it’s a possibility, so it’s worth taking that chance, to save his own life and Carls. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-walking-dead-2-07-pretty-much-dead-already-open-spoilers/604298.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-walking-dead-2-07-pretty-much-dead-already-open-spoilers/604298.md?page=8)