# The Walking Dead; 2.13 "Beside the Dying Fire" SEASON FINALE (open spoilers) **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [March 18, 2012, 11:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-walking-dead-2-13-beside-the-dying-fire-season-finale-open-spoilers/616171 "2012-03-18T23:16:36Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 13
**Author:** ![Cat\_Whisperer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cat_whisperer/32/4839_2.png) [@Cat\_Whisperer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Whisperer)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2012, 9:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-walking-dead-2-13-beside-the-dying-fire-season-finale-open-spoilers/616171/241 "2012-03-21T21:55:15Z")
> [@Scupper](#): > > I stand corrected, and offer my apologies to Christopher Robin Davies. > > I guess the supernatural explanation is still on the table, potentially. Since we were talking virus all the time, I thought we had nailed that one down, too. Yes, I guess a supernatural explanation is still on the table. I don’t _hate_ that idea, but I think I prefer the virus one. > [@msmith537](#): > > Yeah, no one ever thinks THEY are the maruading band of rampaging psychos.\ If I was looking for a sig line change, this would be it. 🙂 > [@SenorBeef](#): > > Yeah, the “selfish antisocial danger” who offered his life first, to let Otis be the one to return with the equipment. I seem to be the only one who remembers this. When Shane realized that they both couldn’t make it, he offers Otis the chance to be the one to get away, to take the medical supplies back to the farm, while he serves as the distraction. Otis refused to leave him. So Shane was forced to make Otis the one to stay. > > But Shane offered up to sacrifice himself to save Otis and Carl. And somehow the conclusion people draw from this scene is that Shane is a selfish sociopath. \ It’s a drawback of the writing on this show that we don’t know if they have cleverly written Shane as a complicated individual with multiple layers, or just forgot that they wrote him one way then changed it for the next episode. ---
**Author:** ![CannyDan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cannydan/32/548_2.png) [@CannyDan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CannyDan)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2012, 10:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-walking-dead-2-13-beside-the-dying-fire-season-finale-open-spoilers/616171/242 "2012-03-21T22:24:33Z")
> [@Cat\_Whisperer](#): > > It’s a drawback of the writing on this show that we don’t know if they have cleverly written Shane as a complicated individual with multiple layers, or just forgot that they wrote him one way then changed it for the next episode. This. I might be persuaded otherwise if I find a copy of that episode and watch it again. But at the time I (think I) remember thinking that Shane’s offer was a hollow one. He knew or could reasonably believe that Otis was (choose one) a. too honorable or b. not hardened or cold or cynical enough to leave his companion behind. It also seemed to me that the situation wasn’t as dire as to require this exigency. They weren’t surrounded, merely pursued, albeit by large numbers. There have been lots of pursuits in the series, and the only time the ‘good guys’ get caught in one is whenever the writers decree it. Others in this thread have commented on the propensity of walkers to shamble just a bit slower than whoever they are chasing. Regardless, if Shane could run away, then there’s a chance for Shane and Otis to run away. Splitting up the load and covering each other should improve that chance. I thought at the time that this was Shane taking a cynical approach to becoming the hero, the savior of Carl, thus making big time points with Carl’s mother. And how better than to be the only surviving hero, thus achieving the highest possible personal aggrandizement while simultaneously underscoring the danger he had put himself to for the sake of poor little Carl. ---
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2012, 10:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-walking-dead-2-13-beside-the-dying-fire-season-finale-open-spoilers/616171/243 "2012-03-21T22:26:56Z")
I just rewatched the scenes - the scene is very clearly set up to look dire. They’re injured, they’re worn out, they have to keep stopping, they’re limping, they’re almost caught several times - the show is clearly trying to present it as “you won’t both make it out alive” - so Shane offers to stay, Otis refuses, they continue on for a while until it’s completely clear they can’t both make it, at which point Shane shoots Otis. If you’re going to say “walkers can never catch people”, that invalidates the entire show. The show deliberately set up the scenario that the walkers would catch them unless someone stayed behind to distract them - to handwave that away is to ignore the entire purpose of that scene. I mean you might as well say “oh guys don’t worry about the zombies, they can only travel at 90% of your speed, so you might as well take a leisurely walk” and eliminate the zombie threat entirely from the show. It makes no dramatic or plot sense. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2012, 10:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-walking-dead-2-13-beside-the-dying-fire-season-finale-open-spoilers/616171/244 "2012-03-21T22:27:39Z")
> [@SenorBeef](#): > > Yeah, the “selfish antisocial danger” who offered his life first, to let Otis be the one to return with the equipment. Unless he figured he could run faster not carrying all the medical stuff. 🙂 Shayne’s a redneck asshole. ---
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2012, 10:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-walking-dead-2-13-beside-the-dying-fire-season-finale-open-spoilers/616171/245 "2012-03-21T22:35:31Z")
Shane’s dedication to saving Carl really isn’t called into question at all in the show. ---
**Author:** ![obfusciatrist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/4af34b/32.png) [@obfusciatrist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/obfusciatrist)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2012, 10:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-walking-dead-2-13-beside-the-dying-fire-season-finale-open-spoilers/616171/246 "2012-03-21T22:39:46Z")
Shane can’t convince Otis to lease so while they’re running he falls back, shoots himself in the leg and Otis has no choice but to go on with the supplies. Shane is a hero and not a redneck asshole and we avoid a lot of soap opera drama for the next 11 episodes. All of which is moot since it turns out Carl has super healing powers and almost certainly would have survived anyway. And further moot since this last episode established that a horde of zombies can’t catch you even when you’re standing in the middle of a thousand of them, so they were never in any real risk. The previous paragraph mostly facetious. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2012, 10:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-walking-dead-2-13-beside-the-dying-fire-season-finale-open-spoilers/616171/247 "2012-03-21T22:43:33Z")
> [@SenorBeef](#): > > Shane’s dedication to saving Carl really isn’t called into question at all in the show. It’s a great way to suck up to Lori. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![CannyDan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cannydan/32/548_2.png) [@CannyDan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CannyDan)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2012, 11:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-walking-dead-2-13-beside-the-dying-fire-season-finale-open-spoilers/616171/248 "2012-03-21T23:08:40Z")
But I never said walkers can’t catch people. I said that the situation, even if dire, might have been resolved differently. \*\*obfuscaitrist \*\*offers one. Both being killed is another. The series could have gone along either way. But I actually see this as an important step in the evolution of the Shane character. For it is here, I think, that he goes from being a moderately selfish, rather coarse but not barbaric person dealing with a truly horrific situation (“redneck Shane”, survivor Shane) into something else. Something much worse. A person who would murder his companion in order to curry favor with the woman he wanted to possess. A person who would manipulate his best friend into a situation where he could be killed, and killed in a way that would cover his own manipulation while again providing him personal aggrandizement. And gain him the ultimate trophies – control of the group, and control of the former leader’s woman. The fact that this manipulation required yet another death, that of Randall, was of no consequence to Shane beyond Randall’s utility in furthering Shane’s goal. So perhaps Shane was a complex personality after all. Evil, ultimately, but complex enough to have undergone an evolutionary process of personality degradation. ---
**Author:** ![Southern\_Yankee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/southern_yankee/32/2800_2.png) [@Southern\_Yankee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Southern_Yankee)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2012, 11:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-walking-dead-2-13-beside-the-dying-fire-season-finale-open-spoilers/616171/249 "2012-03-21T23:38:09Z")
Another question worth contemplating: \< **warning** , _may_ contain extremely slight spoilers based on show discussion elsewhere\> [Link](http://www.grantland.com/blog/hollywood-prospectus/post/_/id/46154/do-zombies-poop-an-investigation) ---
**Author:** ![Push\_You\_Down](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/push_you_down/32/9095_2.png) [@Push\_You\_Down](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Push_You_Down)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2012, 11:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-walking-dead-2-13-beside-the-dying-fire-season-finale-open-spoilers/616171/250 "2012-03-21T23:45:33Z")
> [@Southern\_Yankee](#): > > Another question worth contemplating: \< **warning** , _may_ contain extremely slight spoilers based on show discussion elsewhere\> > > [Link](http://www.grantland.com/blog/hollywood-prospectus/post/_/id/46154/do-zombies-poop-an-investigation) Of course they do. But it’s not like they stop to drop a deuce, whatever they consume just eventually shakes it’s way out the bottom. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2012, 12:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-walking-dead-2-13-beside-the-dying-fire-season-finale-open-spoilers/616171/251 "2012-03-22T00:00:31Z")
> [@MeanJoe](#): > > then put the thought in Rick’s head that they need to kill Shane, then put the thought in Shane’s head that she still wanted him and it could be his baby cause she just doesn’t know, and now is so horrified at what has happened. I don’t believe that Lori was intentionally leading Shane on. I think she was just trying to be friends again. ---
**Author:** ![DigitalC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ebca7d/32.png) [@DigitalC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DigitalC)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2012, 1:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-walking-dead-2-13-beside-the-dying-fire-season-finale-open-spoilers/616171/252 "2012-03-22T01:16:26Z")
> [@Push\_You\_Down](#): > > Of course they do. But it’s not like they stop to drop a deuce, whatever they consume just eventually shakes it’s way out the bottom. Actually i would think whatever they eat just accumulates in their stomach. ---
**Author:** ![Spoke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@Spoke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoke)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2012, 1:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-walking-dead-2-13-beside-the-dying-fire-season-finale-open-spoilers/616171/253 "2012-03-22T01:39:26Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > Shayne’s a redneck asshole. Well, Shane’s an asshole. Whether he’s a redneck is really a separate inquiry, and not particularly related to the question of whether he is an asshole. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Fubaya](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/c2a13f/32.png) [@Fubaya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fubaya)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2012, 1:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-walking-dead-2-13-beside-the-dying-fire-season-finale-open-spoilers/616171/254 "2012-03-22T01:54:37Z")
Let’s remember some of the lesser mentioned aspects of Shane’s track record. I never saw him leading the group through anything other than a traffic jam and a camping trip where he did jack squat to secure their position. He was even sarcastic about them stringing up cans as a walker warning, but that seems to be more than he did. When the group got trapped in Atlanta, he refused to help them. As Andrea’s sister said, that was their family and friends who volunteered to go into town for the benefit of others, and his reply was ‘sorry, they’re dead now’. I’m not saying he had to walk in and take on the zombie horde, but he could have driven closer to talk to them over the radio and assess the situation, then a rescue might have been as simple as driving by to distract the zombies. Isn’t it even worth finding out whether a low risk rescue is possible? He was a naysayer about Rick returning to Atlanta, where a bag of much needed guns was laying in the street. Shane was against it because it would leave the camp weaker, and then he blamed Rick for their losses afterward. Again, he hadn’t done anything to secure the campsite. If he felt they were weaker, maybe he should have been on a more active patrol or arming people and putting them on watch instead of having a cookout in front of the fire and doing fuck all. He had no problem with a group of 6 going the day before while Daryl was also off on a hunting trip at the same time. He had no problem with taking no action and leaving them to die. But, oh no, Rick and 3 people from the camp was a deal breaker. Why? Because it was Rick’s decision. He was a naysayer about the CDC, which was very close to their campsite. He wanted to travel 100 miles to Fort Benning instead, although everyone knew the military had been overran. He tried to turn Lori against the CDC idea behind Rick’s back. If you only have two options, which may not even pan out, and one is in your back yard and the other is 100 miles away, why wouldn’t you try the closer one first? Because it was Rick’s idea. It’s a little reckless and stupid to insist on skipping the easy one and going for the long shot, but Shane’s hard on for Rick would have them do just that. Not only was Shane the worst Eskimo Brother ever, he was a terrible leader and he wasn’t a good decision maker, he was just anti-Rick and Rick occasionally made bad decisions, making Shane occasionally look good in the process. ---
**Author:** ![Folacin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/folacin/32/3195_2.png) [@Folacin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Folacin)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2012, 1:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-walking-dead-2-13-beside-the-dying-fire-season-finale-open-spoilers/616171/255 "2012-03-22T01:58:43Z")
> [@obfusciatrist](#): > > All of which is moot since it turns out Carl has super healing powers and almost certainly would have survived anyway. I realize that it’s actually just standard TV healing, but what if the zombie virus heals you? Remember, we’ve also got T-Dog’s artery cut. > [@DigitalC](#): > > Actually i would think whatever they eat just accumulates in their stomach. Assuming we’re not going supernatural, there is a need for zombie’s to get energy. The virus restarts the brain stem and enough cognition to pursue food sources, which I would think would be enough to run the digestive system. ---
**Author:** ![EllisDee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ellisdee/32/4531_2.png) [@EllisDee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EllisDee)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2012, 3:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-walking-dead-2-13-beside-the-dying-fire-season-finale-open-spoilers/616171/256 "2012-03-22T03:06:13Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > Yeah, well Rick ain’t been “dead” going on two seasons. Go hit on the blond girl. Laurie Holden is much hotter than Rick’s trailer trash wife anyway. For that matter, Emma Bell back in season one instead of his best friend’s widow in the first place. ---
**Author:** ![Superdude](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/superdude/32/13450_2.png) [@Superdude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Superdude)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2012, 5:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-walking-dead-2-13-beside-the-dying-fire-season-finale-open-spoilers/616171/257 "2012-03-22T05:09:42Z")
> [@Ellen\_Cherry](#): > > Tell him to sign up. If we can’t perform zombie experiments, at least we could grill a prison guard. > > I mean, _ask questions of a prison guard._ I’ve mentioned this board to him on a few occasions. He’d love it if ever gave it a shot. But he resists because, if any misinformation is given, he can blame it on me. ---
**Author:** ![Lightnin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lightnin/32/180_2.png) [@Lightnin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lightnin)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2012, 12:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-walking-dead-2-13-beside-the-dying-fire-season-finale-open-spoilers/616171/258 "2012-03-22T12:51:21Z")
> [@SenorBeef](#): > > I just rewatched the scenes - the scene is very clearly set up to look dire. They’re injured, they’re worn out, they have to keep stopping, they’re limping, they’re almost caught several times - the show is clearly trying to present it as “you won’t both make it out alive” - so Shane offers to stay, Otis refuses, they continue on for a while until it’s completely clear they can’t both make it, at which point Shane shoots Otis. My theory is that Shane was a bit of a psychopath… but that he viewed himself as a good guy. He said that he’d stay behind to let Otis get away… but he didn’t actually have to do it, did he? If he was willing to sacrifice, he could’ve done it himself, rather than let Otis talk him out of it. And hey, _someone’s_ gotta stay behind to let the other get away… I imagine he was a very competent cop, but he did it for the power and importance of the position rather than any sense of public service. But anyhoo… One thing that kind of bothered me- they specifically mentioned that Randall wasn’t bitten, but that instead his neck was broken. Now, it’s my impression that what kills you when you’ve got a broken neck is suffocation- your lungs don’t work, because their connection to the brain is broken. It’s the paralysis that kills you- so wouldn’t Zombie Randall \*also \*be paralyzed from the neck down? ---
**Author:** ![Folacin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/folacin/32/3195_2.png) [@Folacin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Folacin)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2012, 12:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-walking-dead-2-13-beside-the-dying-fire-season-finale-open-spoilers/616171/259 "2012-03-22T12:58:18Z")
> [@Lightnin](#): > > One thing that kind of bothered me- they specifically mentioned that Randall wasn’t bitten, but that instead his neck was broken. > > Now, it’s my impression that what kills you when you’ve got a broken neck is suffocation- your lungs don’t work, because their connection to the brain is broken. It’s the paralysis that kills you- so wouldn’t Zombie Randall \*also \*be paralyzed from the neck down? Well, first of all, it’s zombies, so thinking about it too hard is going to cause trouble. But, since that’s what we do here 🙂 - I’d say maybe the virus does kick up healing? Of course, we don’t know how long Randall was down before he got back up, but that at least gives us a hand-wave. ---
**Author:** ![Omega\_Glory](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/7c8e57/32.png) [@Omega\_Glory](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omega_Glory)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2012, 12:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-walking-dead-2-13-beside-the-dying-fire-season-finale-open-spoilers/616171/260 "2012-03-22T12:58:37Z")
> [@CannyDan](#): > > Actually, I thought of – Otis? the guy from the farm – that Shane shot to draw the walkers off himself when they were gathering medical supplies to save the kid. And he did it in a needlessly ugly way. Instead of just killing him and providing fresh meat to divert the walkers from himself he instead shot ?Otis? in the leg, leaving him to be eaten alive. That’s when I concluded that he wasn’t just an opportunistic cretin (for glomming onto his best friend’s wife, which I could understand since it was reasonable to believe that Rick was dead) but a completely selfish antisocial danger to the group. His decision making was decidedly poor, too. He used up all the flares for the trip into the school instead of keeping a spare or two to use when it was time to leave. Before Rick’s arrival, Shane apparently helped the group set up camp, but just because the group was alive doesn’t mean Shane deserves the credit for that. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-walking-dead-2-13-beside-the-dying-fire-season-finale-open-spoilers/616171.md?page=12) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-walking-dead-2-13-beside-the-dying-fire-season-finale-open-spoilers/616171.md?page=14)