# The Walking Dead; 3.05 "Say the Word" (open spoilers) **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [November 12, 2012, 1:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-walking-dead-3-05-say-the-word-open-spoilers/640741 "2012-11-12T01:32:13Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2012, 11:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-walking-dead-3-05-say-the-word-open-spoilers/640741/101 "2012-11-13T23:44:10Z")
> [@wheresmymind](#): > > It obviously wasn’t a very “nice” thing to do, and I certainly consider the Governor to be a somewhat flawed character, but I don’t think it makes him a monster. Maybe if you were one of the guardsman you’d revise your opinion on whether he was a monster or not. It isn’t about him being nice it’s about him murdering people. Not going out to rescue the guardsman wouldn’t have been nice. Deliberately murdering them crosses the line from “not nice” into clearly immoral. > [@](#): > > I think the National Guard unit did represent a threat, I can’t imagine a group of 10-15 soldiers assimilating easily into a civilian-run society. It’s easy to imagine a half-dozen scenarios in which they could severely disrupt the society the Governor built. The guardsman were not even aware of the existence of the Governor’s little town so they were not a threat. It’s not made clear how close the guardsman were to the town but they were far enough away that they didn’t see the helicopter crash. The Governor deliberately sought them out specifically so he could kill them and take their weapons, vehicles, ammunition and whatever additional supplies they might have. The argument that the guardsman were a threat does not stand up to scrutiny. Even the governor knows that such arguments won’t stand up to scrutiny. There’s a reason he doesn’t tell the town what really happened to the guardsman. > [@](#): > > We’ve watched him go from being essentially the elected leader of a fairly democratic group in season 1 to a self-appointed dictator in season 3. We’ve seen him kill to protect the group. Yes, Rick killed to protect the group. The Governor did not kill those guardsman to protect the group. > [@](#): > > We’re shown the Governor’s bad side right off the bat when he kills the National Guardsmen, but as we discover more about him it seems he genuinely cares about the well-being of his people, his past has been just as traumatic as Rick’s or anyone else, and he even seems to be trying to develop a cure. The fact that he genuinely cares about his people has no bearing on whether his actions regarding the guardsman were right or wrong. I’m sure \ loved his dog but that hardly redeems him. > [@](#): > > As far as we know, he’s practically saving mankind. It seems to me that Rick is on a downward slope, that the Governor has already slid down. When Rick starts murdering people who have done nothing to demonstrate that they are a danger to him I might agree with you. But then I’ll go ahead and say that Rick has become a monsters just like the Governor. ---
**Author:** ![emarkp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/3be4f8/32.png) [@emarkp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emarkp)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2012, 12:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-walking-dead-3-05-say-the-word-open-spoilers/640741/102 "2012-11-14T00:08:02Z")
> [@Baker](#): > > Those zombies Michonne had were said to be starving because they couldn’t eat. > > Hmmm, I wonder just what, or whom, the Governor’s daughter is eating? Did you notice the bucket being carried when Michonne’s walker-slaying was discovered? ---
**Author:** ![Scupper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b9bd4f/32.png) [@Scupper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scupper)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2012, 12:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-walking-dead-3-05-say-the-word-open-spoilers/640741/103 "2012-11-14T00:11:21Z")
When the governor ends up with a dozen guys with heavy weapons demanding to be let into his community and has no weapons with which to dissuade them, he would likely feel he should have gotten his hands dirty to protect his people. Ruthless? Absolutely? Evil? Subjective, but probably, but it is a comprehensible evil. He has taken it upon himself to protect his people, and they have in turn placed their faith in him. They might very well object to his methods, but he does have reasons for what he does other than simple self-interest. ---
**Author:** ![salinqmind](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/3ec8ea/32.png) [@salinqmind](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/salinqmind)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2012, 12:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-walking-dead-3-05-say-the-word-open-spoilers/640741/104 "2012-11-14T00:15:22Z")
The Talking Dead tv show is only half an hour long. Isn’t it? ---
**Author:** ![Push\_You\_Down](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/push_you_down/32/9095_2.png) [@Push\_You\_Down](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Push_You_Down)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2012, 12:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-walking-dead-3-05-say-the-word-open-spoilers/640741/105 "2012-11-14T00:18:57Z")
Was there any indication that the National Guard guys even knew about Woodbury? Seems like the Governor might have jumped the gun. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2012, 12:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-walking-dead-3-05-say-the-word-open-spoilers/640741/106 "2012-11-14T00:21:28Z")
> [@Scupper](#): > > Armored vehicles with heavy weapons means you are ready when somebody else comes along with armored vehicles and heavy weapons, instead of being at their mercy. I don’t know how to fire them, and I doubt that his guys do. Perhaps they can laern without blowing themselves up. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![running\_piglet\_cheese](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/22d042/32.png) [@running\_piglet\_cheese](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_piglet_cheese)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2012, 12:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-walking-dead-3-05-say-the-word-open-spoilers/640741/107 "2012-11-14T00:22:56Z")
Talking Dead comes on 11:00PM to 11:30. It is also available online at [amctv.com](http://amctv.com) ---
**Author:** ![Feyrat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/fbc32d/32.png) [@Feyrat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Feyrat)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2012, 12:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-walking-dead-3-05-say-the-word-open-spoilers/640741/108 "2012-11-14T00:24:59Z")
> [@Quimby](#): > > I think the Governor is clearly unhinged. The notebook, watching Zombie heads like TVs and his daughter make it clear. He murdered the chopper pilot, slaughtered the National Guard men and lied to his people about it. He may not be a mustache twirling villain (yet) but he is definitely not a nice guy. > [@Scupper](#): > > Unless there is one hell of a horrific revelation about the Governor than we’ve already seen, I don’t see him as too cartoonishly evil to tolerate. > > Yes, it was pretty cold-blooded that he killed the National Guard guys like that, but he would have been taking a hell of a chance trying to integrate a squad of well-armed and trained guys who were an integrated team into his small community, or even letting them wander around nearby, getting more and more desperate for exactly what his community has to offer: supplies, shelter, and women. Err, are we forgetting the FISHTANKS FULL OF HEADS? That’s not psycho enough? I have no problem with him taking out the Nat Guard squad but those fishtanks? WTF. Also, to me that notebook made it look like the little girl may not be his original/only child. It looked like there’d been quite a few and the little girl is just the latest. I assumed the hatchmarks were how many days he’s had her. Maybe the other kids couldn’t be properly housebroken, who knows? I’m still waiting for more on that. I’m confused by the confusion of the Rick scene. I thought it was pretty obvious that the zombie had gorged on Lori and was just kinda sitting there chillin. I would have liked to seen more meat and bones strewn around, or a couple more zombies, but I “got” what they were getting at. What confused me was the stabbing. At first I thought for sure he was gonna go fish for her wedding ring, but he just stabbed the belly over and over. It was like… wtf, are you ticked off someone else got to kill her and you need to stab her meat? What’s that about? ---
**Author:** ![Latimera](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/latimera/32/497_2.png) [@Latimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Latimera)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2012, 12:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-walking-dead-3-05-say-the-word-open-spoilers/640741/109 "2012-11-14T00:37:46Z")
> [@Feyrat](#): > > Err, are we forgetting the FISHTANKS FULL OF HEADS? That’s not psycho enough? I have no problem with him taking out the Nat Guard squad but those fishtanks? WTF. > > Also, to me that notebook made it look like the little girl may not be his original/only child. It looked like there’d been quite a few and the little girl is just the latest. I assumed the hatchmarks were how many days he’s had her. Maybe the other kids couldn’t be properly housebroken, who knows? I’m still waiting for more on that. > > I’m confused by the confusion of the Rick scene. I thought it was pretty obvious that the zombie had gorged on Lori and was just kinda sitting there chillin. I would have liked to seen more meat and bones strewn around, or a couple more zombies, but I “got” what they were getting at. What confused me was the stabbing. At first I thought for sure he was gonna go fish for her wedding ring, but he just stabbed the belly over and over. It was like… wtf, are you ticked off someone else got to kill her and you need to stab her meat? What’s that about? I have to admit, I thought the Rick scene was pretty clear too. Maybe I just have a warped imagination… ---
**Author:** ![Scupper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b9bd4f/32.png) [@Scupper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scupper)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2012, 12:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-walking-dead-3-05-say-the-word-open-spoilers/640741/110 "2012-11-14T00:39:11Z")
> [@Feyrat](#): > > Err, are we forgetting the FISHTANKS FULL OF HEADS? That’s not psycho enough? I have no problem with him taking out the Nat Guard squad but those fishtanks? WTF. Unhinged, yes. But he’s clearly not completely out of his mind. And we don’t know why he keeps them. Maybe they are a bizarre penance to remind him of the evils he’s done in the name of protecting Woodbury. > [@Feyrat](#): > > Also, to me that notebook made it look like the little girl may not be his original/only child. It looked like there’d been quite a few and the little girl is just the latest. I assumed the hatchmarks were how many days he’s had her. My impression was that the list was a list he was keeping of people he’d lost to the zombie apocalypse. He stopped keeping track when he lost the most important person in his life: his daughter. After that, he just scribbled disconsolately in the book. He’s f-d up, that’s for sure, but, Jesus, who wouldn’t be? Unlike Rick, we don’t see the Governor assaulting his friends, putting himself and the group into reckless danger in his grief, etc. He may do or have done those things, but we haven’t seen it yet. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2012, 1:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-walking-dead-3-05-say-the-word-open-spoilers/640741/111 "2012-11-14T01:38:05Z")
> [@Scupper](#): > > After that, he just scribbled disconsolately in the book. I wonder if he thinks he is writing some master plan. I think he is fruitier than a nutcake. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Whisperer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cat_whisperer/32/4839_2.png) [@Cat\_Whisperer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Whisperer)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2012, 2:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-walking-dead-3-05-say-the-word-open-spoilers/640741/112 "2012-11-14T02:33:20Z")
I still think he’s poisoning all the people in Woodbury with something they’re drinking. I’m sticking with that. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2012, 2:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-walking-dead-3-05-say-the-word-open-spoilers/640741/113 "2012-11-14T02:43:41Z")
> [@Feyrat](#): > > FISHTANKS FULL OF HEADS One of Clint Eastwood’s lesser-known westerns, I assume. Anyway, I like the Governor way more than Broody McBlackula. ---
**Author:** ![randwill](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/a3d4f5/32.png) [@randwill](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/randwill)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2012, 2:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-walking-dead-3-05-say-the-word-open-spoilers/640741/114 "2012-11-14T02:46:01Z")
> [@running\_piglet\_cheese](#): > > Talking Dead comes on 11:00PM to 11:30. It is also available online at [amctv.com](http://amctv.com) It seems like there are only about 7 minutes of actual program to it. The rest of the half hour is commercials. ---
**Author:** ![running\_piglet\_cheese](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/22d042/32.png) [@running\_piglet\_cheese](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_piglet_cheese)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2012, 2:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-walking-dead-3-05-say-the-word-open-spoilers/640741/115 "2012-11-14T02:53:43Z")
The Governor’s goals and Rick’s are different. The Gov wants a controlled community with plans for future development and stability. He looks at things from a more detached manner than Rick. The people in his community are his “subjects” that he cares about superficially, but has no real deep attachment to. Probably after the zombie apocalypse he suffered some real heart wrenching losses of family and now he has just gone into complete self protective mode, only letting himself remember/feel when he’s alone with Penny or with his swimming heads. Rick, OTOH, has a very small group which he is extremely close to, they are indeed his family. He is doing all he can to keep them safe and together. But he has not learned to protect his psyche and compartmentalize so he goes outwardly bonkers and acts irrationally at times. For instance when he shut Albert out in the yard w/the walkers or when he went off and killed 2 dozen walkers on his own. Other times, however, he is rational and effective. Like when he made the plan to take the prison or keeping the group safe and moving during the months after they left the farm. I think Rick is on a pendulum at the moment and will swing back to the more rational side soon and perhaps stay there, but then again, maybe not. The Gov while outwardly performing his duties well, inside the grief and corruption is eating away and he may not be able to hold it together if something horrific should happen to Penny. The thing is will the people be willing to accept a more irrational, emotional and despotic governor in order to keep “paradise”? ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2012, 4:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-walking-dead-3-05-say-the-word-open-spoilers/640741/116 "2012-11-14T04:24:23Z")
> [@Push\_You\_Down](#): > > Was there any indication that the National Guard guys even knew about Woodbury? > > Seems like the Governor might have jumped the gun. Bingo. There are all sorts of rationalizations for why he murdered the guardsman. They were a threat or they had equipment that the town needed being the two most popular rationalizations. I have yet to see any justification for his actions though. As if a “comprehensible” evil is somehow acceptable. ---
**Author:** ![Enderw24](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ba9def/32.png) [@Enderw24](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enderw24)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2012, 4:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-walking-dead-3-05-say-the-word-open-spoilers/640741/117 "2012-11-14T04:35:00Z")
> [@AuntiePam](#): > > But it’s a threat only to the Governor, and it’s only a possible threat at that. And they’re not back in the stone age. We’ve seen everyone find food, shelter, gas, weapons. This isn’t the world of _The Road_, where behavior like the Governor’s would be expected. > > The Governor wasn’t thinking of protecting his people when he shot those guys. We’ve already compared the killing of the one national guard to Randall last year. Yeah, Rick wavered on what to do, and the governor didn’t, but the result was the same. They both took someone in, helped them, then killed them because it was too big a risk. But you don’t think Rick, Shane & co wouldn’t have killed all of Randall’s buddies in cold blood if they could, merely because there was a slight chance they’d have found the farm? They absolutely would have. They just didn’t have the manpower. ---
**Author:** ![AuntiePam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/f19dbf/32.png) [@AuntiePam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AuntiePam)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2012, 5:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-walking-dead-3-05-say-the-word-open-spoilers/640741/118 "2012-11-14T05:20:40Z")
> [@Enderw24](#): > > But you don’t think Rick, Shane & co wouldn’t have killed all of Randall’s buddies in cold blood if they could, merely because there was a slight chance they’d have found the farm? They absolutely would have. They just didn’t have the manpower. But at least Rick would have had a reason – a better reason than maintaining his authority. Their actions might be the same but their motivation isn’t. ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2012, 5:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-walking-dead-3-05-say-the-word-open-spoilers/640741/119 "2012-11-14T05:36:46Z")
> [@Enderw24](#): > > But you don’t think Rick, Shane & co wouldn’t have killed all of Randall’s buddies in cold blood if they could, merely because there was a slight chance they’d have found the farm? They absolutely would have. They just didn’t have the manpower. Big difference. Randall’s group already demonstrated that they were a bunch of murders, rapist and thieves. Yes, rapist. Remember Randall talking about how his group came across a man and his two daughters whom they proceeded to rape? You’re comparing apples and oranges. The guardsman had not demonstrated that they were any threat to the Governor’s people. They weren’t even aware of the existence of the Governor’s people. There is no morally equivalency here. ---
**Author:** ![wheresmymind](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/91b2a8/32.png) [@wheresmymind](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wheresmymind)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2012, 5:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-walking-dead-3-05-say-the-word-open-spoilers/640741/120 "2012-11-14T05:57:34Z")
I’m sort of playing devil’s advocate here. I know the Gov’s supposed to be bad, and I suspect that as we learn more about him I’ll realize what a bastard he is. But just for the sake of argument… For the Governor, maintaining his authority is the same thing as protecting his people. Under his rule Woodbury has been a smashing success, with a large number of people enjoying relative safety and a much higher quality of life than those on the outside. They’re doing even better than the well-armed, trained soldiers that until a few days ago had a freaking _helicopter_. Imagine the group of soldiers showing up and (with the best intentions) saying “Okay people, the cavalry’s here, do what we say and you’ll be fine.” They usurp authority from the Governor with the help of their heavy weaponry, and proceed to run Woodbury into the ground. They were unable to keep themselves safe, why should they have better luck keeping a whole town running? The fact is it’s extremely likely that the soldiers discovering Woodbury would be bad for the town in the long run, one way or another. Whether they knew about the town or not is immaterial - they were on the move, exploring within a short drive of the town. The odds are they would have found Woodbury eventually, assuming the walkers didn’t do them in first. It’s true the Governor didn’t wait to find out if they were friendly or not, but it generally won’t go well for you if you wait 'till you’re absolutely sure the guys with .50 caliber machine guns are against your best interests before you go after them. In his eyes he made a pre-emptive strike that eliminated a threat and netted their town some much-needed weapons and equipment. He spared the rest of the town the details because they don’t need to know how the sausage gets made. I’m not saying he’s a great guy, but you seem to think he’s looking out for himself and himself only. I see him as trying to keep Woodbury (and all that it represents) from falling apart. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-walking-dead-3-05-say-the-word-open-spoilers/640741.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-walking-dead-3-05-say-the-word-open-spoilers/640741.md?page=7)