# The Walking Dead; 3.08 "Made to Suffer" (open spoilers) **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [December 3, 2012, 12:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-walking-dead-3-08-made-to-suffer-open-spoilers/642799 "2012-12-03T00:07:14Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![DigitalC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ebca7d/32.png) [@DigitalC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DigitalC)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2012, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-walking-dead-3-08-made-to-suffer-open-spoilers/642799/141 "2012-12-04T18:28:34Z")
Having some hope left that there might some day be a cure or that there might be something human left in them doesn’t really strike me as all that horrible either though. ---
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2012, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-walking-dead-3-08-made-to-suffer-open-spoilers/642799/142 "2012-12-04T18:30:05Z")
Curing a seperated head might be kind of a dick move. ---
**Author:** ![DigitalC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ebca7d/32.png) [@DigitalC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DigitalC)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2012, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-walking-dead-3-08-made-to-suffer-open-spoilers/642799/143 "2012-12-04T18:31:53Z")
I’m talking about the daughter. He said the heads were about acclimatizing himself to the horrors outside. ---
**Author:** ![Eyebrows\_0f\_Doom](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eyebrows_0f_doom/32/3119_2.png) [@Eyebrows\_0f\_Doom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eyebrows_0f_Doom)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2012, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-walking-dead-3-08-made-to-suffer-open-spoilers/642799/144 "2012-12-04T18:34:13Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > I’m not sure it’s entirely fair to say that she has done something similar. She kept her two traveling companions in order to ward off other walkers. That’s a very practical purpose. And not really comparable to what the governor was doing. I thought her zombies were related to her? Not that it was stated out loud but I thought that was the impression we were supposed to get. So yeah count me in as another who didn’t get her whole _OMG how horrible_ reaction to the Governor keeping his zombie daughter chained up. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2012, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-walking-dead-3-08-made-to-suffer-open-spoilers/642799/145 "2012-12-04T18:36:08Z")
Regardless of whether they have been related to her in some way while alive she kept them for a practical purpose and got rid of them when she needed to without hesitation. She didn’t keep them in her bedroom because she was still in love with them. ---
**Author:** ![LurkerInNJ](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ed655f/32.png) [@LurkerInNJ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LurkerInNJ)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2012, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-walking-dead-3-08-made-to-suffer-open-spoilers/642799/146 "2012-12-04T18:39:24Z")
Was I the only one laughing at how quickly Carl offered to put a bullet in the other kids mom’s head? ---
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2012, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-walking-dead-3-08-made-to-suffer-open-spoilers/642799/147 "2012-12-04T18:49:34Z")
> [@DigitalC](#): > > I’m talking about the daughter. He said the heads were about acclimatizing himself to the horrors outside. Oh, woops. Keeping your daughter alive because you think a part of her might be in there is actually a bigger dick move. You have to think that A) part of your daughter’s mind is in there somewhere but that B) she’s undergoing a horror beyond comprehension, forced to live in this horrible state, having something else control you, your body rotting while you’re traped inside… I thought the same thing about Hershel’s barn. If you love someone, and you think they’re still sort of in there, then kill the fuck out of them immediately. Prolonging their existance as a zombie is horrible, and the fact that you can’t pull the trigger is a moral failing - you’re forcing them to suffer through that existance because you’re not strong enough to come to terms with the situation. ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2012, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-walking-dead-3-08-made-to-suffer-open-spoilers/642799/148 "2012-12-04T20:05:14Z")
Let’s not be too kind to the Governor regarding those heads. After all, many of those heads probably belonged to his victims rather. ---
**Author:** ![Airbeck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/airbeck/32/6574_2.png) [@Airbeck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airbeck)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2012, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-walking-dead-3-08-made-to-suffer-open-spoilers/642799/149 "2012-12-04T20:08:52Z")
> [@Odesio](#): > > Let’s not be too kind to the Governor regarding those heads. After all, many of those heads probably belonged to his victims rather. Well we know that the helicopter pilot’s head was one of them, and he was alive when it was cut off presumably. So yeah, lets not go too easy on the guy. A lot of people are finding ways to cope with this new world, and so far I’m not aware of anyone else that keeps heads in fish tanks as a part of this process. ---
**Author:** ![Shark\_Sandwich](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f04885/32.png) [@Shark\_Sandwich](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shark_Sandwich)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2012, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-walking-dead-3-08-made-to-suffer-open-spoilers/642799/150 "2012-12-04T20:10:52Z")
I got the impression that up until this episode, we were supposed to see the Governor as “kinda crazy.” The killing of his daughter and having his eye skewered has advanced that to “full-blown batshit crazy.” ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2012, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-walking-dead-3-08-made-to-suffer-open-spoilers/642799/151 "2012-12-04T20:15:37Z")
> [@Shark\_Sandwich](#): > > I got the impression that up until this episode, we were supposed to see the Governor as “kinda crazy.” The killing of his daughter and having his eye skewered has advanced that to “full-blown batshit crazy.” The Governor is not crazy. He’s evil. He’s savvy enough to hide his wickedness, true enough, but he’s evil nonetheless. ---
**Author:** ![DigitalC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ebca7d/32.png) [@DigitalC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DigitalC)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2012, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-walking-dead-3-08-made-to-suffer-open-spoilers/642799/152 "2012-12-04T20:42:53Z")
Yeah, kidnapping Glen and Maggie and torturing them. Then wanting to kill their crew not to take over the safety of the prison but just because, i dunno because fuck them i guess? was already pretty indicative of the Governors insanity or evilness. ---
**Author:** ![Feyrat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/fbc32d/32.png) [@Feyrat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Feyrat)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2012, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-walking-dead-3-08-made-to-suffer-open-spoilers/642799/153 "2012-12-04T20:45:13Z")
> [@Face\_Intentionally\_Left\_Blank](#): > > It’s safe to say she aggravates everyone as much as she does the viewer. I think you should avoid generalizations. Michonne actually doesn’t aggravate me as much as a lot of the other characters. > [@LurkerInNJ](#): > > Michonne should have told Lori that the Gov sent his men after her to kill her after she left and that she had now hooked up with Rick and his group. And mentioning that Carl and Maggie had been taken hostage by Merle wouldn’t have hurt either. Silence is your best option to a point, but she should have shown her hand. THIS did bug me though. C’mon. I’m totally fine with her not talking to strangers, but she spent 8 months with Andrea and there’s some odd, almost romantic tension between the two of them. She couldn’t say “turn your head, he’s keeping live zombie heads in aquariums, and a little zombie girl in a straitjacket!” I mean, the Governor’s explanation after the fact may have soothed Andrea’s fears, but Michonne could have taken advantage of that moment of shock and horror to put him down before he could do that. I’m just grateful beyond measure that Michonne and the Governor’s backs-and-forths weren’t what happened in the comics. That would have been my last episode 😛 > [@SenorBeef](#): > > _Lost_ proved that the key to a successful TV show is making sure your characters never communicate in any sort of vaguely reasonable way with other characters. Ugh, it is going there, isn’t it? > [@Human\_Action](#): > > And a thoroughly unpleasant person: whiny, entitled, arrogant, demanding, promiscuous… The fuck? Two guys in a year is promiscuous? As to her sleeping only with powerful alpha males - so what? How nice a world do you think women are going to have in the zombie apocalypse? Most of the breeding-age females will be rape-and-baby-bait at best. We’ve already heard of it happening once, and we’ve been staying pretty closely to our one tiny group of survivors. The safest thing a healthy woman could possibly do in this situation is 1) learn how to shoot and keep a gun on her and 2) make sure the most powerful men have a vested interest in preventing her from being gangraped. It is what it is. What is isn’t is promiscuous. > [@Human\_Action](#): > > Agreed, that scene was sloppy, in that they cranked up the zombie-sounds, then had Michonne be surprised to find a zombie. It made her look pretty stupid. I didn’t hear zombie noises, just rattling from the door. > [@Human\_Action](#): > > So you are upset that I was too inclusive in a list of negative character traits possessed by a fictional character? My mistake. No, because it’s a bullshit sexist comment. > [@Cat\_Whisperer](#): > > I thought the use of the word “terrorist” was odd, too. “Intruders” would have been the one that came to my mind. The Governor seems to be taking a propagandist playbook to heart. I’m not at all surprised he’d use a word like that - very loaded to Americans - to describe the people who broke into a calm, secure and green-lawns settlement and started killing people. > [@Human\_Action](#): > > I read it that zombie Penny did respond to the music and/or her father’s voice, but once she noticed the meat, she was a mindless zombie again. But I am eager for signs of sentience from the zombies, so I need to rewatch that scene to make sure my take can be justified. I actually thought that scene was an awful fail. The little girl actress wasn’t selling the whole zombie thing at all. And the Governor’s face was easily within reach. Why fixate on a bowl of meat with a live face that close? She didn’t even lunge at him. If anything would “prove” she had some mind left, to me it’s the fact she didn’t react to him at all. > [@Human\_Action](#): > > Agreed, it might happen, but it won’t strike me as believeable if it does. And if The Governor has no intention of moving Woodbury to the prison, why is he so fixated on it? Just stamping out potential competition? I had thought he might take a chosen handful of residents and abandon the rest of Woodbury to move to the prison full-time, but that doesn’t seem to be the case. Probably because the prison group IS an actual threat. I mean, they managed to break in with 4 people, break two of their own people out of a guarded group, killed several of the Woodbury people, and then made it out unscathed. They wouldn’t have even lost Daryl if he hadn’t gone (apparently) looking for Merle. ---
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2012, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-walking-dead-3-08-made-to-suffer-open-spoilers/642799/154 "2012-12-04T21:02:28Z")
I rewatched the scene, there are definitely zombie noises although not full on attack loud zombie noises, more like idle vaguely choking zombie noises. Enough that someone experienced in walking among them would notice. Even if not, she could’ve talked to the girl and asked for a response, or even just kept her chained up and pulled the hood off at max distance. If we’re trying to portray Michone as a world-weary badass, it’s pretty silly for her to do what she did even without the sounds. ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Whisperer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cat_whisperer/32/4839_2.png) [@Cat\_Whisperer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Whisperer)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2012, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-walking-dead-3-08-made-to-suffer-open-spoilers/642799/155 "2012-12-04T21:03:38Z")
> [@Feyrat](#): > > \ > The Governor seems to be taking a propagandist playbook to heart. I’m not at all surprised he’d use a word like that - very loaded to Americans - to describe the people who broke into a calm, secure and green-lawns settlement and started killing people.\ Good point. He’s making his citizens all good and propagandized. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2012, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-walking-dead-3-08-made-to-suffer-open-spoilers/642799/156 "2012-12-04T21:08:04Z")
> [@DigitalC](#): > > Yeah, kidnapping Glen and Maggie and torturing them. Then wanting to kill their crew not to take over the safety of the prison but just because, i dunno because fuck them i guess? was already pretty indicative of the Governors insanity or evilness. Actually, my point was that the Governor’s actions do not generally seem purposeless, delusional, or irrational; rather, they are selfish, callous,and designed to consolidate and increase his hold on power, and to bring him pleasure regardless of the cost to others. Evil. ---
**Author:** ![EllisDee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ellisdee/32/4531_2.png) [@EllisDee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EllisDee)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2012, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-walking-dead-3-08-made-to-suffer-open-spoilers/642799/157 "2012-12-04T21:22:21Z")
> [@Airbeck](#): > > Well we know that the helicopter pilot’s head was one of them, and he was alive when it was cut off presumably. Why would the pilot have been alive when they cut his head off? I highly doubt that’s how it went down. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2012, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-walking-dead-3-08-made-to-suffer-open-spoilers/642799/158 "2012-12-04T21:27:35Z")
> [@EllisDee](#): > > Why would the pilot have been alive when they cut his head off? I highly doubt that’s how it went down. I think the point is “Not a zombie when taken.” ---
**Author:** ![Airbeck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/airbeck/32/6574_2.png) [@Airbeck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airbeck)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2012, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-walking-dead-3-08-made-to-suffer-open-spoilers/642799/159 "2012-12-04T21:30:40Z")
> [@EllisDee](#): > > Why would the pilot have been alive when they cut his head off? I highly doubt that’s how it went down. Well I meant that he wasn’t a zombie. He was in the infirmary or whatever injured, but still human, the last time we saw him. Then his head was in a fish tank. So what I was saying is that his head wasn’t a zombie head, it was a human head. It wasn’t a trophy from a zombie kill, but a human one. So yeah, evil. edit: simulpost. Yeah what he said. ---
**Author:** ![alphaboi867](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alphaboi867/32/3898_2.png) [@alphaboi867](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alphaboi867)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2012, 10:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-walking-dead-3-08-made-to-suffer-open-spoilers/642799/160 "2012-12-04T22:33:49Z")
> [@Elmer\_J.Fudd](#): > > Another thing that occurs to me about the Axle character is that he’s been written to be an ironic counterpoint to Carl… I fear for Axel’s safetly once Carl starts to pick up on his interest in Beth. Carl wouldn’t even need to kill him himself; one little false accusation and Carol would kill him without a second thought. 😉 > [@SenorBeef](#): > > It’s ridiculous because of the obvious zombie sounds playing when that happened, which is why it makes the character look stupid. The scene clearly called for silence. I have a hard time believing the writer actually called for the zombie sound (which ruins the suspense, since we’re expecting Michone to figure it out before she gets in danger), so I suspect the sound guys were being dumb. Michonne had several, conflicting clues. Yes, Penny was changed up in a cage & there some odd sounds. She was also wearing clean clothes, there were toys insight, and probally smells heavily of perfume. It’s not hard to believe she mistook Penny for a living child at all. Hell we know she could’ve been flashing back to her own childhood memories. > [@Eyebrows\_0f\_Doom](#): > > I thought her zombies were related to her? Not that it was stated out loud but I thought that was the impression we were supposed to get. So yeah count me in as another who didn’t get her whole _OMG how horrible_ reaction to the Governor keeping his zombie daughter chained up. There’s been nothing onscreen to suggest she knew her zombie pets; she destroyed them without hesitation the moment they became a liability. In the comics… …one was her boyfriend, the other his best friend. > [@LurkerInNJ](#): > > Was I the only one laughing at how quickly Carl offered to put a bullet in the other kids mom’s head? Yeah, that was pretty funny. You know Carl was probally thinking something like “What a wus, he can’t even watch someone hell put his mother down.” > [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > Actually, my point was that the Governor’s actions do not generally seem purposeless, delusional, or irrational; rather, they are selfish, callous,and designed to consolidate and increase his hold on power, and to bring him pleasure regardless of the cost to others. Evil. Agreed. And I think the Governor isn’t doing this for purely selfish reasons; he genuinely believes his actions are what’s best for Woodbury & his leadership is the only thing keeping them safe. Don’t get me wrong; he is an extremist, and he’s making some pretty torturous rationalizations. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-walking-dead-3-08-made-to-suffer-open-spoilers/642799.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-walking-dead-3-08-made-to-suffer-open-spoilers/642799.md?page=9)