# The Walking Dead; 3.08 "Made to Suffer" (open spoilers) **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [December 3, 2012, 12:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-walking-dead-3-08-made-to-suffer-open-spoilers/642799 "2012-12-03T00:07:14Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![Feyrat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/fbc32d/32.png) [@Feyrat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Feyrat)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2012, 10:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-walking-dead-3-08-made-to-suffer-open-spoilers/642799/161 "2012-12-04T22:39:57Z")
Did anyone else notice that the Governor’s gauze eyepatch was clean when he started talking, but bloodstained on the bottom by the time he finished, as if he’d started oozing. I thought that was a nice touch by the costume/makeup folks! ---
**Author:** ![Furious\_Marmot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/dfb087/32.png) [@Furious\_Marmot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Furious_Marmot)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2012, 11:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-walking-dead-3-08-made-to-suffer-open-spoilers/642799/162 "2012-12-04T23:23:51Z")
At the risk of doing further damage to suspension of disbelief, how painful/incapacitating is an injury like that, IRL? It looks absolutely awful and I think I’d still be laying on the floor screaming while the Gov is stalking around giving speeches. Leaving aside infection, would the trauma have been life-threatening? ---
**Author:** ![Elmer\_J.Fudd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/elmer_j.fudd/32/1211_2.png) [@Elmer\_J.Fudd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elmer_J.Fudd)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2012, 12:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-walking-dead-3-08-made-to-suffer-open-spoilers/642799/163 "2012-12-05T00:17:58Z")
> [@Furious\_Marmot](#): > > At the risk of doing further damage to suspension of disbelief, how painful/incapacitating is an injury like that, IRL? It looks absolutely awful and I think I’d still be laying on the floor screaming while the Gov is stalking around giving speeches. Leaving aside infection, would the trauma have been life-threatening? I’ve had a severe eye injury and the ER put a drop of something in there that took the pain level from a 10 to a 0 in less than a second. As useful as they are, eyes are not vital organs. ---
**Author:** ![EllisDee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ellisdee/32/4531_2.png) [@EllisDee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EllisDee)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2012, 12:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-walking-dead-3-08-made-to-suffer-open-spoilers/642799/164 "2012-12-05T00:19:41Z")
> [@Airbeck](#): > > Well I meant that he wasn’t a zombie. He was in the infirmary or whatever injured, but still human, the last time we saw him. Then his head was in a fish tank. So what I was saying is that his head wasn’t a zombie head, it was a human head. It wasn’t a trophy from a zombie kill, but a human one. So yeah, evil. > > edit: simulpost. Yeah what he said. It was not a human head, it was a zombie head because everyone turns into a zombie when they die. The only possible way it wasn’t a zombie head is if they did enough brain trauma to prevent coming back as a zombie, which would have killed him before they lopped the head off anyway. I see no way they took the head off while he was alive. ---
**Author:** ![Elmer\_J.Fudd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/elmer_j.fudd/32/1211_2.png) [@Elmer\_J.Fudd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elmer_J.Fudd)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2012, 12:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-walking-dead-3-08-made-to-suffer-open-spoilers/642799/165 "2012-12-05T00:20:05Z")
> [@alphaboi867](#): > > There’s been nothing onscreen to suggest she knew her zombie pets. That sugestion was made by Andrea and Michonne didn’t dispute it. ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2012, 12:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-walking-dead-3-08-made-to-suffer-open-spoilers/642799/166 "2012-12-05T00:32:22Z")
> [@EllisDee](#): > > I see no way they took the head off while he was alive. I think you’re missing the salient point. The Governor took a perfectly healthy (okay injured) human being, murdered him and took his head as a trophy. Nobody’s arguing that the dude was literally alive when they cut his head off. Just that he was made dead either by the Governor’s hand or on his orders. ---
**Author:** ![EllisDee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ellisdee/32/4531_2.png) [@EllisDee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EllisDee)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2012, 12:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-walking-dead-3-08-made-to-suffer-open-spoilers/642799/167 "2012-12-05T00:35:07Z")
It goes without saying that the governor had him killed. I’m confused why people don’t think it was a zombie head, though. EDIT: What I mean is, I saw no obvious head trauma on the pilot head, and I saw other aquarium heads moving their mouths, so I assume the pilot head was also a zombie head. ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2012, 12:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-walking-dead-3-08-made-to-suffer-open-spoilers/642799/168 "2012-12-05T00:51:49Z")
> [@EllisDee](#): > > I’m confused why people don’t think it was a zombie head, though. > > EDIT: What I mean is, I saw no obvious head trauma on the pilot head, and I saw other aquarium heads moving their mouths, so I assume the pilot head was also a zombie head. Nobody thinks that it wasn’t a zombie head. Perhaps some posters could have more carefully chosen their words but nobody is arguing that the head wasn’t a zombie. They simply meant that the head was removed from a person that was murdered rather than removed from some zombie they found. ---
**Author:** ![obfusciatrist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/4af34b/32.png) [@obfusciatrist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/obfusciatrist)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2012, 1:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-walking-dead-3-08-made-to-suffer-open-spoilers/642799/169 "2012-12-05T01:01:56Z")
And decapitation may well have been the method of killing him meaning the head wasn’t a zombie head until after it was just a head. ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Whisperer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cat_whisperer/32/4839_2.png) [@Cat\_Whisperer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Whisperer)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2012, 3:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-walking-dead-3-08-made-to-suffer-open-spoilers/642799/170 "2012-12-05T03:10:03Z")
> [@Feyrat](#): > > \ > The Governor seems to be taking a propagandist playbook to heart. I’m not at all surprised he’d use a word like that - very loaded to Americans - to describe the people who broke into a calm, secure and green-lawns settlement and started killing people. > \ I was thinking about this some more, and I realized why his use of the word terrorists bothered me so much - it indicates that they were innocent victims of bad people, which we know was far from the truth - the Prison Gang wouldn’t have been there at all if Merle and the Governor hadn’t kidnapped and tortured Glenn and Maggie. His people in Woodbury don’t know what a piece of crap he is, but we do. I guess part of his reasons for using the word terrorists was to stop anyone from questioning why those big, bad men were showing up and messing with them. ---
**Author:** ![Critical1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/3e96dc/32.png) [@Critical1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Critical1)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2012, 7:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-walking-dead-3-08-made-to-suffer-open-spoilers/642799/171 "2012-12-05T07:25:32Z")
I havent noticed anyone mention this yet, in the last ep the Gov had a pretty serious hard on for Michonnes head and sword, Merle had to lie about both being lost. those heads are trophies. ---
**Author:** ![Baker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/bb73d2/32.png) [@Baker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baker)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2012, 10:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-walking-dead-3-08-made-to-suffer-open-spoilers/642799/172 "2012-12-05T10:25:42Z")
> [@Critical1](#): > > I havent noticed anyone mention this yet, in the last ep the Gov had a pretty serious hard on for Michonnes head and sword, Merle had to lie about both being lost. > those heads are trophies. I think you’ve hit the nail on the _head_!😃 ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2012, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-walking-dead-3-08-made-to-suffer-open-spoilers/642799/173 "2012-12-05T15:45:36Z")
> [@SenorBerf](#): > > The more I think about it, the more I think the Epic Climactic Mid-season finale battle could’ve been great but ended up being stupid…They should’ve either emphasized the previous theme of our group = hardened, woodbury = soft, or at least had our people come up with a clever plan using their initiatve. We got a little bit of that theme with Glenn manufacturing weapons from the bones of a walker, but it went unaddressed in the rest of the mission. I think a running, mobile gunfight would have worked best. Under fire, the Woodbury people could have sought cover, as people do, while the bolder, more reckless prison group could have outpaced them and escaped. > [@SenorBeef](#): > > They would’ve showed our group to be both clever, explained how a small group could take on bigger numbers, and used their environment better if instead of smoke grenades they used teargas, and they used the gas masks from the prison. It could’ve even been fairly organized and planned rather than the ad-hoc “throw smoke on the road and stand on it” plan that we actually saw. Teargas would have been much better, but it would have meant having the main cast wear masks for much of their screentime. Remember the SWAT armor from episode 102, “Guts”, which was used once and then discarded forever? Same problem. The show always chooses ease of filming over realism or storytelling. > [@Soylent Juicy](#): > > You’d think that Michonne would WANT Andrea on her side and against The Governer and that she’d want to expose Andrea to what a psycho the Gov. really is. Instead she just scowled and took off. What the hell. > [@Feyrat](#): > > I’m totally fine with her not talking to strangers, but she spent 8 months with Andrea and there’s some odd, almost romantic tension between the two of them. She couldn’t say “turn your head, he’s keeping live zombie heads in aquariums, and a little zombie girl in a straitjacket!” I mean, the Governor’s explanation after the fact may have soothed Andrea’s fears, but Michonne could have taken advantage of that moment of shock and horror to put him down before he could do that. I think there’s three ways to take that scene. 1. Michonne is more plot device than character, and keeping Andrea uninformed and on The Governor’s side serves the plot. 2. Michonne no longer wants Andrea on her side, and returned to Woodbury purely for revenge on The Governor. 3. Michonne believes that Andrea should trust her without the need for evidence or explanation. > [@DigitalC](#): > > Having some hope left that there might some day be a cure or that there might be something human left in them doesn’t really strike me as all that horrible either though. I have to agree. Keeping Penny in and of itself is not evidence that The Governor is crazy or evil, I think it’s a pretty understandable response, and he’s taken due care to make sure she’s not a threat to anyone. > [@SenorBeef](#): > > Keeping your daughter alive because you think a part of her might be in there is actually a bigger dick move. You have to think that A) part of your daughter’s mind is in there somewhere but that B) she’s undergoing a horror beyond comprehension, forced to live in this horrible state, having something else control you, your body rotting while you’re traped inside… Perhaps; but not enough is known about zombie-ism to speculate as to what their inner life might be like. It might involve suffering, but it might not. And The Governor is in a unique position that Herschel wasn’t: he has a scientist of some kind working on zombie research, finding a cure or at least a treatment isn’t out of the realm of possibility. > [@Shark Sandwich](#): > > I got the impression that up until this episode, we were supposed to see the Governor as “kinda crazy.” The killing of his daughter and having his eye skewered has advanced that to “full-blown batshit crazy.” Keeping his daughter around was an indicator of hope for the future, just as Woodbury itself is. Losing that hope forever would naturally harden someone. > [@Feyrat](#): > > The fuck? Two guys in a year is promiscuous? > [@Feyrat](#): > > No, because it’s a bullshit sexist comment. Already addressed. > [@Feyrat](#): > > As to her sleeping only with powerful alpha males - so what? How nice a world do you think women are going to have in the zombie apocalypse? Most of the breeding-age females will be rape-and-baby-bait at best. We’ve already heard of it happening once, and we’ve been staying pretty closely to our one tiny group of survivors. The safest thing a healthy woman could possibly do in this situation is 1) learn how to shoot and keep a gun on her and 2) make sure the most powerful men have a vested interest in preventing her from being gangraped. It is what it is. Women should use their sexuality to manipulate men into protecting and providing for them? **That’s** sexist. > [@Feyrat](#): > > Probably because the prison group IS an actual threat. I mean, they managed to break in with 4 people, break two of their own people out of a guarded group, killed several of the Woodbury people, and then made it out unscathed. They wouldn’t have even lost Daryl if he hadn’t gone (apparently) looking for Merle. True, but that was a rescue mission to free two captives that The Governor’s operative brought in. Woodbury has created its own threat. ---
**Author:** ![Fubaya](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/c2a13f/32.png) [@Fubaya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fubaya)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2012, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-walking-dead-3-08-made-to-suffer-open-spoilers/642799/174 "2012-12-05T16:21:12Z")
Man shoots woman over Walking Dead argument: [http://www.newsday.com/news/nation/cops-man-shoots-girlfriend-over-walking-dead-argument-1.4289872](http://www.newsday.com/news/nation/cops-man-shoots-girlfriend-over-walking-dead-argument-1.4289872) Alright, which one of you was it? ---
**Author:** ![FoieGrasIsEvil](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foiegrasisevil/32/16638_2.png) [@FoieGrasIsEvil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FoieGrasIsEvil)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2012, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-walking-dead-3-08-made-to-suffer-open-spoilers/642799/175 "2012-12-05T16:32:04Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > And a thoroughly unpleasant person: whiny, entitled, arrogant, demanding, promiscuous… She has a great ass, though. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2012, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-walking-dead-3-08-made-to-suffer-open-spoilers/642799/176 "2012-12-05T16:35:58Z")
> [@Fubaya](#): > > Man shoots woman over Walking Dead argument: [http://www.newsday.com/news/nation/c...ment-1.4289872](http://www.newsday.com/news/nation/c...ment-1.4289872) > > Alright, which one of you was it? Seems it was an arguement about the plausibility of the premise, not nitpicking the show itself: > [@Linked Article](#): > > “I just know that he felt very adamant that there could be some type of military mishap that would result in some sort of virus or something being released that could cause terrible things to happen,” Cote said. > > Gelderman, Cote said, thought her boyfriend’s belief was absurd. > > “She felt that it was ridiculous,” Cote said. So I think we’re in the clear. > [@FoieGrasIsEvil](#): > > She has a great ass, though. I was surprised to learn that Laurie Holden was 42, I’ll say that. It’s hard to think of a reason The Governor was so attracted to her other than her being a main character, though. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2012, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-walking-dead-3-08-made-to-suffer-open-spoilers/642799/177 "2012-12-05T16:42:26Z")
Michonne’s reaction to Penny is influenced in part by the paricular concern she has for children. She took the formula to the prison, and was shown having a long and meaningful look at the baby through the bars of the door. She wasn’t offended by the Governor’s treatment of a walker, but was disappointed and shocked that it wasn’t a live child under the hood. In that sense, if she had seen the child first rather than hearing zombie noises, I would forgive them having her miss obvious cues that something was wrong. The sound effects for that scene were even messed up before then. She was initially drawn to that room by a noise that was clealy a thumping on a wooden door. Penny couldn’t have made the noise on her metal grate, so what was bumping the door? ---
**Author:** ![Feyrat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/fbc32d/32.png) [@Feyrat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Feyrat)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2012, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-walking-dead-3-08-made-to-suffer-open-spoilers/642799/178 "2012-12-05T16:56:07Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > Women should use their sexuality to manipulate men into protecting and providing for them? **That’s** sexist. Should, no. That would be the world a woman lives in though. I firmly believe the only reason that women have any rights and safety is through the civilization laws we live under. That’s not even true in most of the world. And even in this country, [these](http://www.rainn.org/statistics) fun statistics. Maybe it’s ok as a male to pretend that women would continue to be treated as people and not chattel if society collapsed, but I certainly don’t believe it. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2012, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-walking-dead-3-08-made-to-suffer-open-spoilers/642799/179 "2012-12-05T17:16:37Z")
> [@Feyrat](#): > > Should, no. That would be the world a woman lives in though. > > I firmly believe the only reason that women have any rights and safety is through the civilization laws we live under. That’s not even true in most of the world. And even in this country, [these](http://www.rainn.org/statistics) fun statistics. > > Maybe it’s ok as a male to pretend that women would continue to be treated as people and not chattel if society collapsed, but I certainly don’t believe it. Society doesn’t need to collapse, really. In our civilized military, woman are treated as chattel. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2012, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-walking-dead-3-08-made-to-suffer-open-spoilers/642799/180 "2012-12-05T17:28:56Z")
> [@Feyrat](#): > > Should, no. That would be the world a woman lives in though. If I may steer things toward TWD, you are stating that Andrea’s relationships with Shane and The Governor, both being “alpha male” types, were deliberate choices on her part to ensure that she was protected, above all other concerns. And that other women should pursue this course in TWD’s world. Correct? Do you feel that the show is conforming to your ideas about how women should use their sexuality in an apocalypse scenario? That is, are Maggie, Carol, Beth, the late Lori, and the other female characters acting as they should? > [@Acsenray](#): > > In our civilized military, woman are treated as chattel. Can you elaborate on this? “Chattel” literally means “movable personal property”, so I’m not following you. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-walking-dead-3-08-made-to-suffer-open-spoilers/642799.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-walking-dead-3-08-made-to-suffer-open-spoilers/642799.md?page=10)