# The Walking Dead; 3.09 "The Suicide King" (open spoilers) **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [February 10, 2013, 11:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-walking-dead-3-09-the-suicide-king-open-spoilers/649915 "2013-02-10T23:12:33Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Unauthorized\_Cinnamon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/bc8723/32.png) [@Unauthorized\_Cinnamon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Unauthorized_Cinnamon)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2013, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-walking-dead-3-09-the-suicide-king-open-spoilers/649915/61 "2013-02-12T18:02:22Z")
Yeah, I figured the suicide king referred to either Rick or the Governor (or both), as it’s an image of a leader who at first appears to be wielding a sword, but on closer examination may be sticking it in his own head. Seems apt for both of them. (I never noticed the wonky sleeve - that’s an interesting take!) At this point, I’m really wishing they had established Michonne as being on the autism spectrum early on. It could actually be a very interesting exploration of the challenges and advantages (they could show how she fixated on swords and swordplay early in life and thus has those amazing skills) of a condition a growing number of people have, and it would provide great metaphors about communication, cooperation, and how much humans would need to discard niceties in favor of total practicality. But no. She just fights like a badass and scowls wordlessly at people. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2013, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-walking-dead-3-09-the-suicide-king-open-spoilers/649915/62 "2013-02-12T18:14:03Z")
> [@Unauthorized\_Cinnamon](#): > > At this point, I’m really wishing they had established Michonne as being on the autism spectrum early on. Is that from the comic? She seemed communicative with Andrea. ---
**Author:** ![SykoSkotty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c0e974/32.png) [@SykoSkotty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SykoSkotty)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2013, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-walking-dead-3-09-the-suicide-king-open-spoilers/649915/63 "2013-02-12T19:11:53Z")
I’m suddenly amazed - never thought to look up the characters after they’ve cleaned up. And the girl who plays Beth (Emily Kinney) is actually 27 years old?!!? [Beth Greene Wiki](http://walkingdead.wikia.com/wiki/Emily_Kinney) As far as who cleans up the best, [WINNER](http://walkingdead.wikia.com/wiki/Laurie_Holden) [First runner up](http://walkingdead.wikia.com/wiki/Emma_Bell) [Second runner up](http://walkingdead.wikia.com/wiki/Sonequa_Martin-Green) ---
**Author:** ![Unauthorized\_Cinnamon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/bc8723/32.png) [@Unauthorized\_Cinnamon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Unauthorized_Cinnamon)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2013, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-walking-dead-3-09-the-suicide-king-open-spoilers/649915/64 "2013-02-12T19:48:01Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > Is that from the comic? She seemed communicative with Andrea. No, sorry if that was misleading. I’m just imagining my own scenario that would fit with her ridiculous level of reticence and be more dramatically satisfying. ETA: from my limited understanding, lots of people on the autism spectrum are able to speak and interact with others, but may have trouble in unfamiliar situations or with new people, or with intuiting what are generally considered universal social cues. So if we run with my pretend backstory, perhaps she spent enough time with Andrea to warm up to her and feel comfortable speaking, but in high stress situations like dealing with Ricktator KooKooBananas, she clams up. It’s weird - I’ve heard Michonne is a huge fan favorite among comic readers. I wonder what she’s actually like in the books? ---
**Author:** ![gytalf2000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/ac91a4/32.png) [@gytalf2000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gytalf2000)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2013, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-walking-dead-3-09-the-suicide-king-open-spoilers/649915/65 "2013-02-12T19:54:30Z")
> [@SykoSkotty](#): > > I’m suddenly amazed - never thought to look up the characters after they’ve cleaned up. > > And the girl who plays Beth (Emily Kinney) is actually 27 years old?!!? > > [Beth Greene Wiki](http://walkingdead.wikia.com/wiki/Emily_Kinney) > > As far as who cleans up the best, [WINNER](http://walkingdead.wikia.com/wiki/Laurie_Holden) > > [First runner up](http://walkingdead.wikia.com/wiki/Emma_Bell) > > [Second runner up](http://walkingdead.wikia.com/wiki/Sonequa_Martin-Green) Hey, excellent choices for winner and the runners-up! I can’t believe that Emily Kinney is actually 27. Wow! Very young-looking actress… ---
**Author:** ![Sampiro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sampiro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampiro)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2013, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-walking-dead-3-09-the-suicide-king-open-spoilers/649915/66 "2013-02-12T20:17:59Z")
> [@Tangent](#): > > Wow! The Walking Dead had 12.3 million viewers last night, with a 6.1 rating in the 18-49 demo. Pretty amazing numbers for a cable series. What’s even more amazing to me is that _The **T** alking Dead_ got well over 4 million viewers. In other words, a one hour talk show in which the sole subject of conversation is the preceding one hour show received almost as many viewers as the recent finale of _30 Rock_. ---
**Author:** ![Courk](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/91b2a8/32.png) [@Courk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Courk)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2013, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-walking-dead-3-09-the-suicide-king-open-spoilers/649915/67 "2013-02-12T20:37:24Z")
I’m still not totally getting the Suicide King thing, but I’ll grant them that it’s possibly alluding to future events that were set in motion here. I’ll reserve final judgement and settlement of this confusion for after the season finale. In other news, the sneak peak on AMC has me chomping at the bit to discuss next week. ---
**Author:** ![GrandWino](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/grandwino/32/67_2.png) [@GrandWino](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GrandWino)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2013, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-walking-dead-3-09-the-suicide-king-open-spoilers/649915/68 "2013-02-12T20:44:33Z")
> [@Courk](#): > > I’m still not totally getting the Suicide King thing, but I’ll grant them that it’s possibly alluding to future events that were set in motion here. I’ll reserve final judgement and settlement of this confusion for after the season finale. > > In other news, the sneak peak on AMC has me chomping at the bit to discuss next week. Did anyone watch Talking Dead? Was the title discussed there? Oh, and a nitpick: it’s “champing”, just fyi. ---
**Author:** ![LurkerInNJ](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ed655f/32.png) [@LurkerInNJ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LurkerInNJ)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2013, 10:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-walking-dead-3-09-the-suicide-king-open-spoilers/649915/69 "2013-02-12T22:56:55Z")
> [@Bob Ducca](#): > > Did anyone watch Talking Dead? Was the title discussed there? Wouldn’t miss it for the world and no. ---
**Author:** ![marshmallow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df705f/32.png) [@marshmallow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/marshmallow)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2013, 11:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-walking-dead-3-09-the-suicide-king-open-spoilers/649915/70 "2013-02-12T23:12:55Z")
> [@Bob Ducca](#): > > Oh, and a nitpick: it’s “champing”, just fyi. Chomping at the bit 2,760,000 results Champing at the bit 297,000 results You need a time machine to change history. ---
**Author:** ![MacTech](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c0e974/32.png) [@MacTech](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MacTech)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2013, 2:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-walking-dead-3-09-the-suicide-king-open-spoilers/649915/71 "2013-02-13T02:06:23Z")
> [@Bob Ducca](#): > > About the Suicide King thing… > > From the bit of reading I’ve done on the term, the King of Hearts is called this because of the way it looks as if he’s stabbing himself in the head with a sword. Apparently though, [because the pattern on the arm is different than what the king is wearing](http://squathole.files.wordpress.com/2010/03/king-of-hearts.jpg), there are thoughts that the arm and sword belong to another figure not seen on the card. > > So perhaps the term is being used to describe a coup against a leader? Or as Zoidberg would put it… A king giving himself brain surgery "Finally, I have a good claw, three human females, a number, and a king giving himself brain surgery ---
**Author:** ![EllisDee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ellisdee/32/4531_2.png) [@EllisDee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EllisDee)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2013, 2:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-walking-dead-3-09-the-suicide-king-open-spoilers/649915/72 "2013-02-13T02:42:07Z")
> [@bouv](#): > > “Oh, the woman that kept me alive for several months is fighting with some guy I’ve known for two weeks. Oh yeah, he also had a room full of zombie heads in fish tanks, and is crying while cradling what can only be his double-dead zombie daughter…but no, I’m going to go ahead and _stay with him, never questioning him about the incident, even after he admits to kidnapping a couple friends of mine._” She did question him a little. I suppose she could give him the same pass they all (except Shane) gave to Hershel’s barn, clinging to the idea that some humantiy was left in walkers. So the Governor’s zombie daughter in the closet could be seen as sort of understandable. He did explictly say that he kept the aquarium heads to remind himself what the world had become. With his rant this episode about how soft the townspeople are, that could actually strengthen his case about the aquarium heads. Both explanations are pretty weak, but probably sufficient to rationalize away problems with the guy you’re banging. > [@](#): > > Drama that only arises from lazy writing and bad characters isn’t good. It would have been interesting for Andrea to actually get the whole story, _but still decide to stay_ be cause she feels Woodbury is safer, and it’s all for “the greater good,” and she slowly turns into a kind of “ends justify the means” kind of person. Agreed 100%. That would be so much better. > [@Human\_Action](#): > > I’m particularly irritated by the way the show has treated the residents of Woodbury. They are somehow both soft and spoiled by a barbecue and picnic filled life inside the walls, ignorant of the real dangers of the post-zombie world; and crave bloodsport and brutal capital punishment like mindless, leering savages. There is no connection between the Woodbury people we see on the town streets and the way others speak of them, and the lynch mob slavering over human pain in the gladiator pit, when they are supposedly the same group. I don’t see a huge disconnect there. The reason mob rule is so frightening is because well-reasoned rational people can quickly devolve into a bloodthirsty mob. > [@YogSosoth](#): > > Stuff I didn’t like: > […] > The strange way Glenn was distancing himself from Maggie after almost giving up his life to save her. He should be grabbing and kissing her and holding her at every chance, not be so wracked with self-conflict that he’s driving her away Steven Yeun (who plays Glenn) talked about this on Talking Dead. He said he did a lot of research, and found that spouses of abuse victims often take on the role of abuser. Not that they pick up where the assailant left off, but more just not being very nice to them. He didn’t really explain it; just that that’s what he found in his research. I see the way they portray it as pretty believable though, even ignoring what the actor said. At this point, Glenn is probably feeling immense impotent rage, plus probably some unmerited shame, every time he sees Maggie, knowing what she went through and that he was powerless to stop it. This next bit is probably reading too much into minutia, but I’d also guess he has issues with him not breaking even when the gun was pointed at Maggie’s head. It was Maggie who caved when the gun was pointed at Glenn. Glenn could be full of self-hatred for not saving his love or resentful of Maggie for being weak and caving. In any case, I find it fully believable that they aren’t all puppies and rainbows after that kind of trauma. That kind of nightmare could easily tear a relationship apart. > [@AngelSoft](#): > > I’m not really feeling the father/son characters. > [@bouv](#): > > Besides, we all know Carl was makin’ eyes at her, and he totally called dibs. 😛 I see the son as the most logical choice for Beth. How much would it suck to be in a love triangle with Carl? Dude shot his own mother in the head; what’s he going to do to some stranger sniffing around his girl? > [@Tangent](#): > > Wow! The Walking Dead had 12.3 million viewers last night, with a 6.1 rating in the 18-49 demo. Pretty amazing numbers for a cable series. In the 18-49 demo, the Walking Dead is the highest-rated scripted drama on television. Including the networks. ---
**Author:** ![EllisDee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ellisdee/32/4531_2.png) [@EllisDee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EllisDee)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2013, 3:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-walking-dead-3-09-the-suicide-king-open-spoilers/649915/73 "2013-02-13T03:27:03Z")
> [@Bob Ducca](#): > > From the bit of reading I’ve done on the term, the King of Hearts is called this because of the way it looks as if he’s stabbing himself in the head with a sword. Apparently though, [because the pattern on the arm is different than what the king is wearing](http://squathole.files.wordpress.com/2010/03/king-of-hearts.jpg), there are thoughts that the arm and sword belong to another figure not seen on the card. > > So perhaps the term is being used to describe a coup against a leader? Supposedly the suicide king represents Charlemagne, Charles VI, or Charles VII. I can’t get a definitive read on which. Playing cards themselves were popularized during the reign of Charles VI. In any case, it seems that the four kings are modeled on four actual kings: Diamonds: Julius Caeser (rich) Clubs: Alexander the Great (brutal) Spades: King David (fair) Hearts: Charles VI (beloved, but eventually insane so the “suicide” part was added to the picture later) ---
**Author:** ![joyfool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/df788c/32.png) [@joyfool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/joyfool)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2013, 3:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-walking-dead-3-09-the-suicide-king-open-spoilers/649915/74 "2013-02-13T03:52:28Z")
> [@AngelSoft](#): > > Me either. As I would specifically remember puking my guts out at the sight. And I’d have to be taping it for all posterity. 😛 I think Carol has turned into a bit of a badass (and is incredibly attractive) and Daryl is hawt, hawt, HAWT. Yum. They can’t get it on fast enough for me. ---
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2013, 6:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-walking-dead-3-09-the-suicide-king-open-spoilers/649915/75 "2013-02-13T06:08:40Z")
> [@EllisDee](#): > > I see the way they portray it as pretty believable though, even ignoring what the actor said. At this point, Glenn is probably feeling immense impotent rage, plus probably some unmerited shame, every time he sees Maggie, knowing what she went through and that he was powerless to stop it. Refresh my memory, but wasn’t Maggie explicitly not raped? The worst that happened to her that we know of is that she had to take her shirt off. Yeah, skeevy, but compared to Glenn getting his fucking face beat in repeatedly and making him fight for his life against a zombie while chained up, big fucking deal. I see people in these threads talking about poor maggie this and that, and I think someone in the show echoed that, but I’m pretty sure I’d take “letting someone see you half naked” over “getting beaten half to death and left for dead against a zombie” ---
**Author:** ![AngelSoft](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/angelsoft/32/440_2.png) [@AngelSoft](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AngelSoft)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2013, 6:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-walking-dead-3-09-the-suicide-king-open-spoilers/649915/76 "2013-02-13T06:38:31Z")
> [@SenorBeef](#): > > Refresh my memory, but wasn’t Maggie explicitly not raped? The worst that happened to her that we know of is that she had to take her shirt off. Yeah, skeevy, but compared to Glenn getting his fucking face beat in repeatedly and making him fight for his life against a zombie while chained up, big fucking deal. I see people in these threads talking about poor maggie this and that, and I think someone in the show echoed that, but I’m pretty sure I’d take “letting someone see you half naked” over “getting beaten half to death and left for dead against a zombie” It seemed pretty clear to me that the Governor stopped short of actual rape, yah. But I don’t think it was ever made clear to Glenn. Unless she mentioned to him that nothing happened and I just don’t remember it. Even so, I’m not sure if he believed her. I’m not sure what’s going on with him right now, tbh. ---
**Author:** ![Courk](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/91b2a8/32.png) [@Courk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Courk)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2013, 9:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-walking-dead-3-09-the-suicide-king-open-spoilers/649915/77 "2013-02-13T09:25:17Z")
In the end, the Governor didn’t actually rape her, but he definitely threatened it and came very close, which would still be a traumatic event. In Made To Suffer Glenn asks Maggie, “Did he-” to which Maggie responds, “No, I swear.” But like AngelSoft said, he might not believe that. Even if he did, there’s still a lot of other guilt stuff going on. ---
**Author:** ![Debaser](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3da27b/32.png) [@Debaser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Debaser)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2013, 3:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-walking-dead-3-09-the-suicide-king-open-spoilers/649915/78 "2013-02-13T15:22:18Z")
> [@EllisDee](#): > > Steven Yeun (who plays Glenn) talked about this on Talking Dead. He said he did a lot of research, and found that spouses of abuse victims often take on the role of abuser. Not that they pick up where the assailant left off, but more just not being very nice to them. He didn’t really explain it; just that that’s what he found in his research. I got this immediately by watching the episode. Maybe not so much “blame” her for what happened, but at the very least there is awkwardness about what happened. Being assaulted (possibly raped) is bound to impact their relationship, and not in a good way. I also think this is yet another example of the sloppy writing the show is so often guilty of. Was she raped? I wouldn’t be surprised for that to be mentioned in a follow up episode matter of fact as if the audience knows. But at this point it’s unclear. Similarly, it came out in this episode that Michone hadn’t told the group about her past with Andrea. Viewers were left wondering if that was withheld, left unsaid and off camera or what was going on. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2013, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-walking-dead-3-09-the-suicide-king-open-spoilers/649915/79 "2013-02-13T15:44:30Z")
> [@EllisDee](#): > > She did question him a little. I suppose she could give him the same pass they all (except Shane) gave to Hershel’s barn, clinging to the idea that some humantiy was left in walkers. So the Governor’s zombie daughter in the closet could be seen as sort of understandable. The idea of stashing away a zombified loved one in case a cure was ever developed is perfectly reasonable, to my mind. Treating the loved one as though they were zombified, much less so. > [@Ellis Dee](#): > > He did explictly say that he kept the aquarium heads to remind himself what the world had become. With his rant this episode about how soft the townspeople are, that could actually strengthen his case about the aquarium heads. > > Both explanations are pretty weak, but probably sufficient to rationalize away problems with the guy you’re banging. Yeah, I could buy that explanation too, were I in Andrea’s place. > [@Ellis Dee](#): > > I don’t see a huge disconnect there. The reason mob rule is so frightening is because well-reasoned rational people can quickly devolve into a bloodthirsty mob. Agreed, but it’s the switching back and forth that I don’t buy. Mobs are formed to _do_ something in times of extreme emotion, they don’t get back to barbecue and picnics the next morning. > [@Ellis Dee](#): > > Steven Yeun (who plays Glenn) talked about this on Talking Dead. He said he did a lot of research, and found that spouses of abuse victims often take on the role of abuser. Not that they pick up where the assailant left off, but more just not being very nice to them. He didn’t really explain it; just that that’s what he found in his research. > > I see the way they portray it as pretty believable though, even ignoring what the actor said. At this point, Glenn is probably feeling immense impotent rage, plus probably some unmerited shame, every time he sees Maggie, knowing what she went through and that he was powerless to stop it. > > This next bit is probably reading too much into minutia, but I’d also guess he has issues with him not breaking even when the gun was pointed at Maggie’s head. It was Maggie who caved when the gun was pointed at Glenn. Glenn could be full of self-hatred for not saving his love or resentful of Maggie for being weak and caving. > > In any case, I find it fully believable that they aren’t all puppies and rainbows after that kind of trauma. That kind of nightmare could easily tear a relationship apart. I think “impotent rage” covers it nicely. Glenn was the same guy that cowered during the gunfight in season 2, he’s become a much stronger warrior/man, but was still unable to protect Maggie or to get revenge on their behalf. He may decide to kill someone to vent his rage; Merle if he can be found, or someone else from Woodbury. In the meantime, it is believable for the relationship to be strained. ---
**Author:** ![Eyebrows\_0f\_Doom](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eyebrows_0f_doom/32/3119_2.png) [@Eyebrows\_0f\_Doom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eyebrows_0f_Doom)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2013, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-walking-dead-3-09-the-suicide-king-open-spoilers/649915/80 "2013-02-13T18:07:55Z")
> [@Debaser](#): > > I also think this is yet another example of the sloppy writing the show is so often guilty of. Was she raped? I wouldn’t be surprised for that to be mentioned in a follow up episode matter of fact as if the audience knows. But at this point it’s unclear. No it’s not. It’s very clear. The Governer acted like he was going to rape her (whether he \*would \*have or not, or was just pretending in order to scare her, is another discussion) but he very obviously stopped before anything happened. All that happened to Maggie is that she was half naked and threatened with rape. And then when Glen asked Maggie is she was raped she said no. If you think that’s unclear then you missed something. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-walking-dead-3-09-the-suicide-king-open-spoilers/649915.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-walking-dead-3-09-the-suicide-king-open-spoilers/649915.md?page=5)