# The Walking Dead; 3.16 "Welcome to the Tombs" (open spoilers) **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [March 31, 2013, 11:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-walking-dead-3-16-welcome-to-the-tombs-open-spoilers/654474 "2013-03-31T23:49:42Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![voltaire](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voltaire/32/313_2.png) [@voltaire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/voltaire)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2013, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-walking-dead-3-16-welcome-to-the-tombs-open-spoilers/654474/161 "2013-04-02T20:38:29Z")
> [@ministryman](#): > > By the way, is it only me that sees the SS symbols on Daryl’s bike? I know he and Merle are rednecks, but damn… I don’t think it was his bike pre-zombie apocalypse, he just scrounged it. ISTR him being happy to find it, but I could be wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2013, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-walking-dead-3-16-welcome-to-the-tombs-open-spoilers/654474/162 "2013-04-02T20:38:42Z")
> [@DigitalC](#): > > Merle dies and the one were they meet Morgan again. Correct, more precisely, “Clear” and “This Sorrowful Life”. In season 2, this fellow (Scott Gimple) wrote “Save The Last One” (in which Shane left Otis to be consumed so that medical supplies could be brought to Carl), “Pretty Much Dead Already” (in which Shane opens the barn o’ death), and “18 Miles Out” (in which Shane and Rick go to abandon Randal away from their camp, and set to fighting each other). His episodes seem to have stronger dialogue than most, and, notably, he used Michonne as an actual character with thoughts and motivations instead of a brooding behead-o-matic. He also seems adept at constructing dilemmas that reveal character: - Shane volunteering for the risky trip to get medical equipment, getting trapped and injured (back then the zombies were freakin’ _dangerous_!), trying to get Otis to leave him, and finally leaving Otis - Rick’s accomodating Hershel’s oddball notions about the zombies (the scene where the gang goes to confront Rick about the barn and finds him bringing in two more zombies to hide in it is a particularly good one) - Rick’s laying down the law with Shane at the beginning of “18 Miles Out”, then shortly after, Shane ignoring all that and taking the Randal situation into his own hands once Randal reveals that he knew Maggie from school. - Andrea’s novel approach to Beth’s suicide attempt. Now, it’s unclear how much control the showrunner of a money-machine like TWD really has, particularly when he’s the third one in four years. Also, writing episodes is a very different task from showrunning, we might see the Peter Principle at work. That said, looking at the various episodes and their writers, Gimple is the guy I’d have chosen from inside the show to take over. His episodes are all well above-average, and in parts, very strong. > [@ministryman](#): > > By the way, is it only me that sees the SS symbols on Daryl’s bike? I know he and Merle are rednecks, but damn… It’s Merle’s bike. Season 1 Merle was a foaming-at-the-mouth racist loon, so it fits. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2013, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-walking-dead-3-16-welcome-to-the-tombs-open-spoilers/654474/163 "2013-04-02T20:47:32Z")
> [@obfusciatrist](#): > > Carl knew he was in no danger from the other kid. He didn’t shoot him because he felt threatened. He shot him because he was a potential future threat. > > Approve or not, they are two entirely different moral decisions and he knew that and so initially lied about why he did it. If that’s what the show is trying to convey, they did an _awful_ job of it. There is nothing to be gained by the ambiguity here, if we’re to take away that Carl shot this kid because he was mad about being left out of the prison defense, or was worried about future threats, or mad that they’d been attacked, then just have the kid toss aside the shotgun and Carl kill him anyway. As is, it reads just as easily that Hershel is some sort of softcore pacifist or too sentimental. As staged and shot, the kid was not complying with the command to disarm. > [@obfusciatrist](#): > > I look forward to a couple more seasons when he is a bit older and realizing that re-population is a key part of surviving and then watching viewers defend the resulting rapes as ends-justified means required by a post-apocalyptically brutal world. I’m not on board with all the “The rules have changed! The old morals are dead and gone!” notions, but shooting an armed attacker who isn’t disarming when ordered is legal and moral **now**. > [@](#): > > In addition to it being stupid that Andrea was unable to simultaneously speak with Milton while trying to get the pliers my big problem is that she was free before he got to her and they’ve so nerfed the zombies over the last two seasons (including her taken out more of them just a couple episodes earlier while more restrained than in that moment) that I do not believe she could have been bitten. Yeah, they undercut themselves on that one. Once she got a hand free, she should have been fine. ---
**Author:** ![UncleRojelio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/unclerojelio/32/3160_2.png) [@UncleRojelio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UncleRojelio)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2013, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-walking-dead-3-16-welcome-to-the-tombs-open-spoilers/654474/164 "2013-04-02T21:00:47Z")
> [@alphaboi867](#): > > That’s even more upsetting that the news that season 4 will also be 16 episodes; this season had way too much filler. It’s okay, three of them will be commercials only. ---
**Author:** ![obfusciatrist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/4af34b/32.png) [@obfusciatrist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/obfusciatrist)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2013, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-walking-dead-3-16-welcome-to-the-tombs-open-spoilers/654474/165 "2013-04-02T21:20:36Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > If that’s what the show is trying to convey, they did an _awful_ job of it. There is nothing to be gained by the ambiguity here, I don’t think there was any ambiguity in terms fo the entire episodes, just in terms of the moment we’re first shown. At the same time, Carl was doing the calculations in his head. He didn’t shoot when the threat arose, he shot after it had been reduced, the gun wasn’t being held in a way that it could quickly be used against him, Herschel was also there and armed and ready to shoot. He decided it was best to kill him not for immediate safety but for perceived future safety. Yes, if a fear for immediate safety was the reason he shot then, even if wrong, it would generally be ok. But that isn’t the reason he shot him and they eliminated the ambiguity when they had Carl explain his motivation in very clear terms. And if Carl understands and explains that he shot the kid not because of an immediate threat but because his life experience shows that it is best to be very pro-active in eliminating possible future threats the question remains why he lied about it initially in claiming self defense. And the answer to that would be he knows that his conclusion was wrong, or at least would be perceived as wrong by the group. And further, without all of that being true, there is no motivation for him dropping the badge as he walks away. It is Carl understanding that he has come to a realization about the hard truth of thew orld and that his father is too much of a coward to accept it and therefore respect has been lost that drives the moment. If Carl just shot because he was scared in the moment then every other scene on the topic was even worse writing than is generally displayed. ---
**Author:** ![alphaboi867](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alphaboi867/32/3898_2.png) [@alphaboi867](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alphaboi867)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2013, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-walking-dead-3-16-welcome-to-the-tombs-open-spoilers/654474/166 "2013-04-02T21:21:21Z")
> [@Algernon](#): > > …So why do highly paid, probably talented, script writers mess up so badly? (Prometheus anyone?) Is it the time pressure of producing a script week after week? Or, like someone mentioned above, is it that the writers get pressure from the execs to write something stupid? Often there’s constant interference from studio/network execs, scripts going through endless rounds of revisions & rewrites, often each rewrite is done by a different screenwriter, and then there’s the budget to consider. That limits what sets you can use, whether you can do locations, if you can have extras, if any of the extras can talk, etc. > [@AtomicDog](#): > > There has to be other Woodburys out there, hopefully ones not run by mainiacs. It would be neat if Rick’s group got hold of a shortwave radio and discovered a network of communities around the world, sharing resources and ideas to rebuild civilization and push back the zombie horde. It’d be funny if they got their hands on a shortwave radio and came accross a newscast from Australia or New Zealand announcing new petrol rationing rules, or Queen Catherine having another baby or an upcoming general election. I mean how would they react to news that in some part of the world, completely beyond their reach, life is going on more or less as normal? Sure it’d give them hope, but it’d also be of no practicle help. > [@Chefguy](#): > > I’m not sure how much time is supposed to have elapsed in this show, but it seems like these people should have hair down to their asses by now and should have been able to score some clothing changes along the way. It’s been over a year since the zombie apocalypse started; there was a huge timejump between seasons 2 & 3 to get get Judith born and kill off Lori. > [@Human\_Action](#): > > …It’s Merle’s bike. Season 1 Merle was a foaming-at-the-mouth racist loon, so it fits. Yep, and Mere’s been in and out of prison alot. Given his personality it’s logical he’d have connections to the Ayran Brotherhood. ---
**Author:** ![Sampiro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sampiro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampiro)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2013, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-walking-dead-3-16-welcome-to-the-tombs-open-spoilers/654474/167 "2013-04-02T21:23:47Z")
[QUOTE=Human Action] It’s Merle’s bike. Season 1 Merle was a foaming-at-the-mouth racist loon, so it fits. [/QUOTE] Plus he spent years in prison, so he probably became Aryan in part for survival and in part for community. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2013, 10:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-walking-dead-3-16-welcome-to-the-tombs-open-spoilers/654474/168 "2013-04-02T22:47:17Z")
It’s only the cartoonish artificiality of the prison melee that makes Carl’s action seem unusual. Had there been a dozen or so Woodburians killed at the prison (as would have happened by any plausible chain of events, given the utter stupidity of their attack plan and the number of bullets flying around, unless we presume Glen and Maggie were consciously trying _not_ to hit anyone), Carl plugging one in the forest would have been worthy of a pat on the back. ---
**Author:** ![Folacin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/folacin/32/3195_2.png) [@Folacin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Folacin)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2013, 11:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-walking-dead-3-16-welcome-to-the-tombs-open-spoilers/654474/169 "2013-04-02T23:18:39Z")
> [@obfusciatrist](#): > > In addition to it being stupid that Andrea was unable to simultaneously speak with Milton while trying to get the pliers my big problem is that she was free before he got to her and they’ve so nerfed the zombies over the last two seasons (including her taken out more of them just a couple episodes earlier while more restrained than in that moment) that I do not believe she could have been bitten. I’ve just sort of assumed that most of the zombies we see these days are pretty old, rotten and hence squishable. Milton was fresh, so presumably tougher. ---
**Author:** ![Fubaya](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/c2a13f/32.png) [@Fubaya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fubaya)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2013, 12:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-walking-dead-3-16-welcome-to-the-tombs-open-spoilers/654474/170 "2013-04-03T00:27:48Z")
I bet next season they take 10 episodes to unload the Woodbury people from the bus. I guess I’m only watching because I’ve already devoted so much time to it. I just tried to imagine what I would feel if the show were cancelled and I honestly think I would feel relief, and that tells me I should spend my time elsewhere. Things I enjoyed this season: The Morgan and Michonne/Carl episode. Merle being philosophical, and some of the times he and Daryl were together in a scene. Things I didn’t enjoy: Merle most any other time. At least we won’t have to see that absurd prosthetic knife thing anymore. If that were attached to the last two inches of his arm nub it would be flopping all over the place. It would only work for people who have hands. It’s obviously a difficult problem for an actor with a hand to play one without a hand, but every time I saw it I thought a) I’m glad Rooker has an actual hand to hold that silly thing on, and b) I wonder if he has different attachments like a fork and spoon, a toothbrush, a bottle opener… I didn’t enjoy any of the Governor or Woodbury and only a little of Andrea toward the end. I didn’t mind them being in the show but I surely didn’t need 16 episodes of them. I can’t think of any of the action that was enjoyable, either against the living or dead. The human action ranged from 2-second murders to ‘meh’ “battles”. Zombies are just background now. They skewer and decap a few at the gates just to remind us that it’s a zombie world, but that’s about all. ---
**Author:** ![coolbyrne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/bc79bd/32.png) [@coolbyrne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/coolbyrne)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2013, 12:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-walking-dead-3-16-welcome-to-the-tombs-open-spoilers/654474/171 "2013-04-03T00:40:24Z")
> [@voltaire](#): > > Your post made me curious to go back and review what I had posted in the previous episode’s thread, where I was speculating _and hoping_ that the newly instituted dumbocracy would vote to leave the prison - doubting that even \*they \*would be stupid enough to stay. Since it was speculation based on the preview for this episode, I spoiler-boxed it, but now I’ll quote the relevant excerpt out in the open: > > And I’m glad I went back to look at that thread, because \*\*coolbyrne \*\*had replied to the points in my post with a books-based spoiler that I didn’t read at the time. And now that I really don’t give a fuck, I read it. > > I recommend that anyone as jaded as I am should also read his post. NOTE: They’re fairly major long term, high-level story-arc spoilers, but since there’s not much in the way of specifics, they’re really not that bad, even if you do plan on sticking with the show. Plus, there’s a good chance that the show will deviate greatly from the books (since that’s already happened with the Governor and other stuff, from what I’ve been told) so they’re almost not even spoilers. > > All that said, if I didn’t have major gripes about the show and serious doubts about continuing to watch it, I would never want to read any of it. As it is, though, I’m glad I just did. > > Now that you’ve been properly and thoroughly warned, [here’s the direct link to his (spoiler boxed) post from last episode’s thread.](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=16133422&postcount=65) I will note that reviewing the [comic storyline thus far](http://walkingdead.wikia.com/wiki/Storyline_%28By_Issue%29), I am reminded at how wildly different the show is from the comics. I mean, _wildly_ different, specifically in the chronological order of things, but also in what events affect which characters. (Now that it’s over, I will say it was never meant to be Andrea in that chair.) So who knows how the show will play out, and perhaps with another new group of storywriters, next season will be better. I just don’t know if I’ll stick around to find out. And for the record, I’m a woman. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![alphaboi867](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alphaboi867/32/3898_2.png) [@alphaboi867](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alphaboi867)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2013, 12:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-walking-dead-3-16-welcome-to-the-tombs-open-spoilers/654474/172 "2013-04-03T00:42:13Z")
> [@Fubaya](#): > > I bet next season they take 10 episodes to unload the Woodbury people from the bus. I guess I’m only watching because I’ve already devoted so much time to it. I just tried to imagine what I would feel if the show were cancelled and I honestly think I would feel relief, and that tells me I should spend my time elsewhere… Not that it’ll happen, but I’d to see a few episodes next season devoted to showing how bringing that many soft, elderly people and children into the prison at once turned out to be a horrible diaster and they ended having to abandon the prison anyway. Given how many seniors there are it’s a shame that they know about everyone being infected by now. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Face\_Intentionally\_Left\_Blank](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/face_intentionally_left_blank/32/288_2.png) [@Face\_Intentionally\_Left\_Blank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Face_Intentionally_Left_Blank)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2013, 12:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-walking-dead-3-16-welcome-to-the-tombs-open-spoilers/654474/173 "2013-04-03T00:59:14Z")
> [@digitalc](#): > > Merle dies and the one were they meet morgan again. wonderful!!! ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Whisperer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cat_whisperer/32/4839_2.png) [@Cat\_Whisperer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Whisperer)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2013, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-walking-dead-3-16-welcome-to-the-tombs-open-spoilers/654474/174 "2013-04-03T17:18:15Z")
> [@Fubaya](#): > > \ They skewer and decap a few at the gates just to remind us that it’s a zombie world, but that’s about all. _It’s a zombie, zombie, zombie, zombie world…_ Sorry. 🙂 Here’s a little something for everyone - [The Governor’s road trip.](http://i.imgur.com/985hj47.gif) 😃 I like this show, and I’ll probably stick with it to the bitter end - I just wish it was _better._ There are so many opportunities for it to be better, and they just won’t take them. Instead they always choose the obvious cliché - it’s a race against time, so Andrea drops the pliers the first try. You can recite the dialogue along with the characters any time they have any kind of Serious Talk. That kind of thing. ---
**Author:** ![gytalf2000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/ac91a4/32.png) [@gytalf2000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gytalf2000)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2013, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-walking-dead-3-16-welcome-to-the-tombs-open-spoilers/654474/175 "2013-04-03T17:28:53Z")
> [@Cat\_Whisperer](#): > > _It’s a zombie, zombie, zombie, zombie world…_ > > Sorry. 🙂 > > Here’s a little something for everyone - [The Governor’s road trip.](http://i.imgur.com/985hj47.gif) 😃 Hey, that was great! ---
**Author:** ![TBG](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c89c15/32.png) [@TBG](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TBG)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2013, 11:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-walking-dead-3-16-welcome-to-the-tombs-open-spoilers/654474/176 "2013-04-03T23:57:51Z")
If you like Talking Dead, heads up, this Saturday’s edition of the Nerdist (Chris Hardwick’s other show, which airs on BBCA at 10pm EDT) is a salute to the zombie apocalypse. Michael Rooker (Merle) and Robert Kirkman will be on as guests. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2013, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-walking-dead-3-16-welcome-to-the-tombs-open-spoilers/654474/177 "2013-04-04T17:35:09Z")
This is kind of funny (especially for those of us who are somewhat frustrated with the show): > **[A few things that make no sense about ‘The Walking Dead’ (33 Photos)](https://thechive.com/humor/wtf/a-few-things-that-make-no-sense-about-the-walking-dead-33-photos/)** > > That guy drinking water in a sea of zombies ---
**Author:** ![alphaboi867](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alphaboi867/32/3898_2.png) [@alphaboi867](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alphaboi867)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2013, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-walking-dead-3-16-welcome-to-the-tombs-open-spoilers/654474/178 "2013-04-04T19:54:33Z")
> [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > This is kind of funny (especially for those of us who are somewhat frustrated with the show): > > [A few things that make no sense about 'The Walking Dead'](http://thechive.com/2013/04/03/a-few-things-that-make-no-sense-about-the-walking-dead-33-photos/) #26 was my favourite. 😉#15 is actually justifiable, or at least it would be if he was tilling a victory garden instead of raking an empty lawn. :smack: ---
**Author:** ![voltaire](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voltaire/32/313_2.png) [@voltaire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/voltaire)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2013, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-walking-dead-3-16-welcome-to-the-tombs-open-spoilers/654474/179 "2013-04-04T20:23:51Z")
> [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > This is kind of funny (especially for those of us who are somewhat frustrated with the show): > > [A few things that make no sense about 'The Walking Dead'](http://thechive.com/2013/04/03/a-few-things-that-make-no-sense-about-the-walking-dead-33-photos/) I get the impression that whoever made the last one (Urinating… Just because.) doesn’t understand how pregnancy tests work. ---
**Author:** ![El\_Kabong](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/el_kabong/32/496_2.png) [@El\_Kabong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/El_Kabong)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2013, 11:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-walking-dead-3-16-welcome-to-the-tombs-open-spoilers/654474/180 "2013-04-04T23:16:09Z")
[QUOTE=Cat Whisperer;16159258I like this show, and I’ll probably stick with it to the bitter end - I just wish it was _better._ [/QUOTE] If any a show ever needed a bit of Joss Whedon, it’s this one. Just one spud’s opinion. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-walking-dead-3-16-welcome-to-the-tombs-open-spoilers/654474.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-walking-dead-3-16-welcome-to-the-tombs-open-spoilers/654474.md?page=10)