# The Walmartization of America comes full circle **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 19, 2013, 2:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-walmartization-of-america-comes-full-circle/650757 "2013-02-19T02:01:03Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2013, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-walmartization-of-america-comes-full-circle/650757/181 "2013-02-21T19:40:07Z")
Economics isn’t a zero sum game. ---
**Author:** ![Kearsen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/82dd89/32.png) [@Kearsen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kearsen)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2013, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-walmartization-of-america-comes-full-circle/650757/182 "2013-02-21T19:41:38Z")
> [@levdrakon](#): > > It better be prosperous because it’s going to have a lot of mouths to feed. > > Not everyone can be one of the winners. The whole system requires losers. Lots of losers. It doesn’t matter how much you tell people to go back to school and learn something marketable and then have them go back and learn something else marketable and then go and… > > Really, most humans are blue collar and they can’t go claim a piece of land and hunt and fish and farm for a nice simple living. So what are people supposed to do? Go back to school yet again? People can’t spend unlimited amounts of time racking up student loans going to school only to graduate and find out they aren’t winner material. 10 people get jobs, 50 don’t. > > What are the 50 supposed to do? Wait for business to create them some jobs? Business isn’t into that anymore. Make their own jobs? Doing what? They’re poor. Oh they’ll find something to do though. It probably won’t be legal. > > The military and government sector is mostly make work. It will simply have to expand until unemployment goes down to a healthy level. > > Business continues to rake in trillions in record setting profits. I have no patience for “it’s too expensive!” We spent what, three trillion now on Iraq? For what? > > Of course we can afford to put people to work. What else are we planning? Well, supposedly we are planning for 10% cuts across the board on everything. It’s amazing how much that war and Medicare/Social Security cost eh? ---
**Author:** ![levdrakon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@levdrakon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/levdrakon)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2013, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-walmartization-of-america-comes-full-circle/650757/183 "2013-02-21T20:01:51Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Which isn’t happening, and which no one is arguing for. So that’s just a strawman. It is exactly what you are arguing for, as is **msmith537**. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2013, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-walmartization-of-america-comes-full-circle/650757/184 "2013-02-21T20:07:07Z")
> [@levdrakon](#): > > It is exactly what you are arguing for, as is **msmith537**. Please quote the post from me where I am advocated that we “negotiating citizens’ wages down to that of Chinese rice paddy subsistence farmer”. You may think you have properly inferred that from something I posted, but if so, you were wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2013, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-walmartization-of-america-comes-full-circle/650757/185 "2013-02-21T20:09:24Z")
> [@levdrakon](#): > > It better be prosperous because it’s going to have a lot of mouths to feed. The U.S. GDP per capita of $48,112 ought to do it. > [@levdrakon](#): > > Not everyone can be one of the winners. The whole system requires losers. Lots of losers. It doesn’t matter how much you tell people to go back to school and learn something marketable and then have them go back and learn something else marketable and then go and… It’s not a zero-sum game, with winners and losers fighting over slices of a fixed “pie” of wealth. And who are the “losers”, exactly? Retail employees? $14,000 a year buys a level of comfort and luxury beyond the dreams of previous generations. It’s honest, productive work that one can be proud of, and can move through to more lucrative employment if one has the desire and capability. Are they “losers” because others have more? > [@levdrakon](#): > > Really, most humans are blue collar and they can’t go claim a piece of land and hunt and fish and farm for a nice simple living. So what are people supposed to do? Go back to school yet again? People can’t spend unlimited amounts of time racking up student loans going to school only to graduate and find out they aren’t winner material. 10 people get jobs, 50 don’t. > > What are the 50 supposed to do? Wait for business to create them some jobs? Business isn’t into that anymore. Make their own jobs? Doing what? They’re poor. Oh they’ll find something to do though. It probably won’t be legal. Well, for one thing, the unemployment rate stands at [7.9%](http://www.tradingeconomics.com/united-states/unemployment-rate), not 83%, so your systemic criticisms seem unfounded. ---
**Author:** ![levdrakon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@levdrakon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/levdrakon)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2013, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-walmartization-of-america-comes-full-circle/650757/186 "2013-02-21T20:20:36Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Please quote the post from me where I am advocated that we “negotiating citizens’ wages down to that of Chinese rice paddy subsistence farmer”. > > You may think you have properly inferred that from something I posted, but if so, you were wrong. There is no _the_ post, but here is one from post #106: > [@](#): > > If a Chinese guy can make a product I want cheaper than you can, and if it’s of acceptable quality to me, then frankly you are SOL. Why shouldn’t be that way? What’s wrong with importing goods from other countries? It’s not just importing products cheaper. It’s also labor. As long as there is anyone on earth desperate and starving enough to work for even less than I’m willing to, you should fuck me and hire the more desperate until the going wage is the lowest possible rate, globally. That is your idea of “globalization.” It just so happens it is impossible to live in the US on 3rd-world starvation wages, so I’m interested in hearing your plan. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2013, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-walmartization-of-america-comes-full-circle/650757/187 "2013-02-21T20:21:03Z")
**levdarakon** : Don’t confuse passion with logic. You are bringing mostly the former to this debate. ---
**Author:** ![levdrakon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@levdrakon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/levdrakon)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2013, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-walmartization-of-america-comes-full-circle/650757/188 "2013-02-21T20:23:26Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > **levdarakon** : Don’t confuse passion with logic. You are bringing mostly the former to this debate. I think perhaps you don’t understand the implications of the beliefs you espouse. ---
**Author:** ![Deeg](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/deeg/32/2955_2.png) [@Deeg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Deeg)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2013, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-walmartization-of-america-comes-full-circle/650757/189 "2013-02-21T20:27:59Z")
> [@levdrakon](#): > > As long as there is anyone on earth desperate and starving enough to work for even less than I’m willing to, you should fuck me and hire the more desperate until the going wage is the lowest possible rate, globally. That is your idea of “globalization.” With apologies to you, why are you more important than the starving person? If we were to base the job on need I’d say the starving person is more deserving of the job (if we pretended that all jobs are zero-sum, which they aren’t). ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2013, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-walmartization-of-america-comes-full-circle/650757/190 "2013-02-21T20:41:26Z")
> [@levdrakon](#): > > Not everyone can be one of the winners. The whole system requires losers. Lots of losers. It doesn’t matter how much you tell people to go back to school and learn something marketable and then have them go back and learn something else marketable and then go and… > > Really, most humans are blue collar and they can’t go claim a piece of land and hunt and fish and farm for a nice simple living. So what are people supposed to do? Go back to school yet again? People can’t spend unlimited amounts of time racking up student loans going to school only to graduate and find out they aren’t winner material. 10 people get jobs, 50 don’t. > > What are the 50 supposed to do? Wait for business to create them some jobs? Business isn’t into that anymore. Make their own jobs? Doing what? They’re poor. Oh they’ll find something to do though. It probably won’t be legal. > > The military and government sector is mostly make work. It will simply have to expand until unemployment goes down to a healthy level. > > Business continues to rake in trillions in record setting profits. I have no patience for “it’s too expensive!” We spent what, three trillion now on Iraq? For what? > > Of course we can afford to put people to work. What else are we planning? That’s a good idea. Be angry at the people who actually do create jobs and generate wealth. Let’s punish them for their success. Maybe everyone can’t be a lawyer, doctor or corporate executive. An economy like that wouldn’t work anyway. But you can work in the sandwich shop where they eat lunch. And if you think that job is beneath your intellect, take out a loan and go to law, medical or business school. Plus where do you get your bizarro numbers that over %80 of college grads can’t find jobs? It’s at best half at graduation and usually most (%95) have a job within one year of graduation. ALL job growth in the past 2 decades (including post 2008) has been in the college educated workforce. [Interesting study by Georgetown.](http://cew.georgetown.edu/collegeadvantage/) ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2013, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-walmartization-of-america-comes-full-circle/650757/191 "2013-02-21T21:11:39Z")
> [@levdrakon](#): > > I think perhaps you don’t understand the implications of the beliefs you espouse. Enlighten us, then. And show your work. No hand-waving or appeals to emotion. ---
**Author:** ![levdrakon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@levdrakon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/levdrakon)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2013, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-walmartization-of-america-comes-full-circle/650757/192 "2013-02-21T21:20:00Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Enlighten us, then. And show your work. No hand-waving or appeals to emotion. It’s not rocket science. Why do you think we have minimum wage laws? Because employers are so moral? ---
**Author:** ![toyo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ea5d25/32.png) [@toyo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/toyo)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2013, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-walmartization-of-america-comes-full-circle/650757/193 "2013-02-21T21:46:45Z")
> [@levdrakon](#): > > It’s not rocket science. Why do you think we have minimum wage laws? Because employers are so moral? We have minimum wage laws because some skill sets aren’t marketable. A person making minimum wage is likely overpaid because if left to market forces alone, the negotiated pay would be less. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2013, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-walmartization-of-america-comes-full-circle/650757/194 "2013-02-21T21:49:42Z")
[QUOTE=levdrakon] Don’t know about other countries but the US is in debt because we gave everything to the rich, they spent it and charged up more, and then told the middle class it was lazy poor immigrants fault for both “stealing jobs” and “being too entitled and lazy to work.” [/QUOTE] Actually, we are mostly in debt because of middle-class entitlements like Social Security and Medicare. Medicaid and defense, too, but that is not a benefit to the rich either. I suppose you could argue that TARP benefited the rich, but that’s been almost all repaid. And I doubt the GM bailout was money to the rich, unless you want to define the UAW as “the rich”. Unless you are confusing “giving everything” with “not taking away everything”. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2013, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-walmartization-of-america-comes-full-circle/650757/195 "2013-02-21T21:54:13Z")
> [@levdrakon](#): > > It’s not rocket science. Why do you think we have minimum wage laws? Because employers are so moral? If that is your final answer I feel perfectly justified dismissing out hand. It is, among other thins, a non sequitur. ---
**Author:** ![panaccione](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/94ad74/32.png) [@panaccione](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panaccione)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2013, 10:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-walmartization-of-america-comes-full-circle/650757/196 "2013-02-21T22:01:10Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > That’s a good idea. Be angry at the people who actually do create jobs and generate wealth. Let’s punish them for their success. > > Maybe everyone can’t be a lawyer, doctor or corporate executive. An economy like that wouldn’t work anyway. But you can work in the sandwich shop where they eat lunch. And if you think that job is beneath your intellect, take out a loan and go to law, medical or business school. See, this is what I’m talking about. In these modern times we all realize the benefit of an education. It should be a collective “priority” of this country and its people. The answer should not be “take out a loan.” The answer is “how can we make education accessible and efficient?” But some of us think that lower taxes are more important. ---
**Author:** ![panaccione](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/94ad74/32.png) [@panaccione](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panaccione)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2013, 10:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-walmartization-of-america-comes-full-circle/650757/197 "2013-02-21T22:07:18Z")
If we had more engineers, we’d have less sandwich shop workers. ---
**Author:** ![levdrakon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@levdrakon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/levdrakon)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2013, 11:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-walmartization-of-america-comes-full-circle/650757/198 "2013-02-21T23:31:03Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Actually, we are mostly in debt because of middle-class entitlements like Social Security and Medicare. Medicaid and defense, too, but that is not a benefit to the rich either. > > I suppose you could argue that TARP benefited the rich, but that’s been almost all repaid. And I doubt the GM bailout was money to the rich, unless you want to define the UAW as “the rich”. > > Unless you are confusing “giving everything” with “not taking away everything”. > > Regards, > Shodan That doesn’t really jibe with this [Business Insider](http://www.businessinsider.com/whos-responsible-for-budget-deficit-2012-8) assessment, nor this [Motley Fool](http://www.fool.com/investing/general/2011/05/18/where-all-that-debt-came-from.aspx) assessment, nor this[FactCheck.org](http://www.factcheck.org/2012/02/dueling-debt-deceptions/) assessment. As I understand it, it’s tax cuts, lost revenue due to shitty economies, and increased government spending. I think it’s more accurate to say the rich screwed up than blame it on middle class “entitlements.” If the middle class were in a position to negotiate fairly with business they’d have better wages, benefits and pensions and they wouldn’t need “middle class entitlements” to stay alive, much less live with some human dignity. ---
**Author:** ![levdrakon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@levdrakon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/levdrakon)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2013, 1:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-walmartization-of-america-comes-full-circle/650757/199 "2013-02-22T01:28:19Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > Maybe everyone can’t be a lawyer, doctor or corporate executive. An economy like that wouldn’t work anyway. But you can work in the sandwich shop where they eat lunch. And if you think that job is beneath your intellect, take out a loan and go to law, medical or business school. > Plus where do you get your bizarro numbers that over %80 of college grads can’t find jobs? It’s at best half at graduation and usually most (%95) have a job within one year of graduation. > > ALL job growth in the past 2 decades (including post 2008) has been in the college educated workforce. > > [Interesting study by Georgetown.](http://cew.georgetown.edu/collegeadvantage/) From a [Huffpo](http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/04/22/job-market-college-graduates_n_1443738.html) article from last year: > [@](#): > > About 1.5 million, or 53.6 percent, of bachelor’s degree-holders under the age of 25 last year were jobless or underemployed, the highest share in at least 11 years. > … > Broken down by occupation, young college graduates were heavily represented in jobs that require a high school diploma or less. > … > According to government projections released last month, only three of the 30 occupations with the largest projected number of job openings by 2020 will require a bachelor’s degree or higher to fill the position – teachers, college professors and accountants. Most job openings are in professions such as retail sales, fast food and truck driving, jobs which aren’t easily replaced by computers. > … > David Neumark, an economist at the University of California-Irvine, said a bachelor’s degree can have benefits that aren’t fully reflected in the government’s labor data. He said even for lower-skilled jobs such as waitress or cashier, employers tend to value bachelor’s degree-holders more highly than high-school graduates, paying them more for the same work and offering promotions. So, doesn’t look great for college grads and most work is low wage retail and waitressing but the good news is employers like their waitresses and bartenders to have bachelor’s degrees. Wow. Soon you’ll need a bachelor’s to get a job as a waiter. And your career progression is what? Waiter, then… waiter at a different restaurant? Going back to school seems like a great way to rack up debt just so you can get an unskilled job that won’t even pay the debt, much less starting a family or anything. So, we’re looking at what is largely an unskilled, low-paying future for the bulk of humanity. Winners and losers. Moreover, I don’t think there are going to be that many food server jobs anyway. At some point, we have to make up jobs. The military and government already do. They’ll have to make more, or give people welfare to do nothing. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2013, 2:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-walmartization-of-america-comes-full-circle/650757/200 "2013-02-22T02:41:18Z")
> [@levdrakon](#): > > From a [Huffpo](http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/04/22/job-market-college-graduates_n_1443738.html) article from last year: > > So, doesn’t look great for college grads and most work is low wage retail and waitressing but the good news is employers like their waitresses and bartenders to have bachelor’s degrees. > > Wow. Soon you’ll need a bachelor’s to get a job as a waiter. And your career progression is what? Waiter, then… waiter at a different restaurant? > > Going back to school seems like a great way to rack up debt just so you can get an unskilled job that won’t even pay the debt, much less starting a family or anything. > > So, we’re looking at what is largely an unskilled, low-paying future for the bulk of humanity. Winners and losers. Moreover, I don’t think there are going to be that many food server jobs anyway. At some point, we have to make up jobs. The military and government already do. They’ll have to make more, or give people welfare to do nothing. Like I said, lots of passion, little logic. You need to bring more of the latter if you want to play in this forum. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-walmartization-of-america-comes-full-circle/650757.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-walmartization-of-america-comes-full-circle/650757.md?page=11)