# The Walmartization of America comes full circle **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 19, 2013, 2:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-walmartization-of-america-comes-full-circle/650757 "2013-02-19T02:01:03Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 12
**Author:** ![panaccione](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/94ad74/32.png) [@panaccione](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panaccione)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2013, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-walmartization-of-america-comes-full-circle/650757/221 "2013-02-22T21:38:59Z")
> [@newcomer](#): > > Feds have a solution and it requires no effort: pump $80 billlion every month into the economy until things get better. > > US economy is like an upset stomach that is under lot of stress due to overindulgence and general mess of mixing all kinds of foods (tax on tax and another tax to prevent the other tax and similar). The US economy gets a heartburn which is unemployment and low wages and general decline. And then the fine doctors in Feds prescribe Pepto-Bismol or large amounts of cash so that you, the US economy, can continue with your merry ways of overindulgence. > > Sometimes saying that there is no problem is the best way to deal with it. If they had their priorities straight I could see it potentially working over time. But, they don’t. The people of this country especially don’t. But, what are the possible negative implications of this solution, if any? ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2013, 9:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-walmartization-of-america-comes-full-circle/650757/222 "2013-02-22T21:44:09Z")
> [@levdrakon](#): > > You like to dwell on and nitpick things that don’t need it. That doesn’t impress people around here. Darn, I’m not impressing people??? > [@levdrakon](#): > > Middle Class entitlements is not the same as “lazy entitled poor people, immigrants, minorities, Americans,” etc. You’re the one who used them interchangably, complete with quotes around entitlements when referring explicitly to Social Security and Medicare. > [@levdrakon](#): > > I’m certain you know this and I’m not entertaining you anymore. You should also look up sarcasm. I know that you like to caricature conservatives, if that’s what you mean. That’s one way to debate, sure, along with the classic “You probably should refrain from commenting” approach. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2013, 9:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-walmartization-of-america-comes-full-circle/650757/223 "2013-02-22T21:55:39Z")
> [@panaccione](#): > > If they had their priorities straight I could see it potentially working over time. But, they don’t. The people of this country especially don’t. > > But, what are the possible negative implications of this solution, if any? Well, for one, that works out to another $960 billion per year, when the 2013 deficit is already projected at $901 billion. We don’t want to end up like Japan, with a graying population and debt at 230% of GDP. ---
**Author:** ![panaccione](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/94ad74/32.png) [@panaccione](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panaccione)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2013, 10:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-walmartization-of-america-comes-full-circle/650757/224 "2013-02-22T22:45:22Z")
nm ---
**Author:** ![panaccione](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/94ad74/32.png) [@panaccione](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panaccione)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2013, 10:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-walmartization-of-america-comes-full-circle/650757/225 "2013-02-22T22:57:55Z")
Ok I’ve ranted for quite a while. I’ve learned some things and I appreciate that. This will be it for a while. The current system seems out of control, but our choices are limited at this point. Here’s what I don’t get. Conservatives and Libertarians are all for a free market, minimal government, minimal taxes. So, why are these giant corporations, oil companies, and banks receiving subsidy? I understand that they are important, but aren’t they profitable on their own? I admit I don’t have a fine economic sense, but it seems quite hypocritical and unproductive. This is why I think a Libertarian viewpoint is irresponsible. A company has an agenda all of their own, and are going to do what they need to do to be profitable. THERE IS NOTHING WRONG WITH THAT. That, in fact, is their responsibility. But that’s precisely why it’s wrong to look at society this way. Sure, capitalism has brought us into the modern world. We now have a solid understanding of engineering and science, and can put it to good use. We can see that profit does not match passion. We can see that more equality is better for all of us. We can see that meeting the basic needs of people is better for us all. This understanding of the world that we live in was made possible by Capitalism. However, we must adapt. We must understand the human being, and it’s flaws that can result in serious damage to the person and environment. The main culprits being selfishness, ignorance, and cognitive dissonance. We tend to ignore this aspect to our detriment. If you want to succeed in anything in life, you need to have “Structure,” “Vision,” and “Drive.” Government provides the structure. It is a system and if used properly can be beneficial. However, it’s only partly responsible. The people must provide the vision We are failing miserably at this and it shows. Lastly, drive is inherent in all of us as it amounts to our will to survive. That is why democracy is the only way. ---
**Author:** ![vivalostwages](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/d07c76/32.png) [@vivalostwages](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vivalostwages)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2013, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-walmartization-of-america-comes-full-circle/650757/226 "2013-02-23T18:04:45Z")
Just to lighten things up for a moment, here is a Walmart bingo card. I hope you all win. [http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://cdn-www.i-am-bored.com/media/25873\_walmartbingo.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.i-am-bored.com/bored\_link.cfm?link\_id%3D43165&h=755&w=515&sz=235&tbnid=sFT3lhAqBGtSgM:&tbnh=84&tbnw=57&prev=/search%3Fq%3Dwalmart%2Bbingo%26tbm%3Disch%26tbo%3Du&zoom=1&q=walmart+bingo&usg=\_\_g7HJhPYU-Vzk\_Nh5jne406jKeFU=&docid=1taenVxsmU-MaM&hl=en&sa=X&ei=fQQpUY-2COOVjAL45IDoDQ&ved=0CC8Q9QEwAA&dur=364](http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://cdn-www.i-am-bored.com/media/25873_walmartbingo.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.i-am-bored.com/bored_link.cfm?link_id%3D43165&h=755&w=515&sz=235&tbnid=sFT3lhAqBGtSgM:&tbnh=84&tbnw=57&prev=/search%3Fq%3Dwalmart%2Bbingo%26tbm%3Disch%26tbo%3Du&zoom=1&q=walmart+bingo&usg=__g7HJhPYU-Vzk_Nh5jne406jKeFU=&docid=1taenVxsmU-MaM&hl=en&sa=X&ei=fQQpUY-2COOVjAL45IDoDQ&ved=0CC8Q9QEwAA&dur=364) ---
**Author:** ![LonesomePolecat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a88e57/32.png) [@LonesomePolecat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LonesomePolecat)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2013, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-walmartization-of-america-comes-full-circle/650757/227 "2013-02-23T19:01:16Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Interesting hypothesis. Got any data to support it? How much data would be enough? ---
**Author:** ![LonesomePolecat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a88e57/32.png) [@LonesomePolecat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LonesomePolecat)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2013, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-walmartization-of-america-comes-full-circle/650757/228 "2013-02-23T19:12:18Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > It’s such a fantastic and complex story that you’re going to to need all sorts of data to support it. All I can say is go line by line in your OP, and offer data that supports it. > > How else could it be? I think you need to explain which points are questionable first. There’s no doubt that we’ve had high unemployment for quite some time and there’s been heavy downward pressure on wages and benefits, that the average American household has lost a lot of income and wealth since 2008, that retirement is becoming more and more unlikely for more and more American workers, that employers are drastically reducing the number of full time workers to avoid paying for benefits, etc. etc. Frankly, I think the burden of evidence and argument is more on you than Senor Beef. ---
**Author:** ![LonesomePolecat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a88e57/32.png) [@LonesomePolecat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LonesomePolecat)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2013, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-walmartization-of-america-comes-full-circle/650757/229 "2013-02-23T19:16:33Z")
> [@Ludovic](#): > > My sister “likes” WalMart on Facebook! :eek: > > You can generalize this into all the resources that WalMart get other people to pay. In addition to the some (but not all) cases where resources are wasted on cheaply-produced crap that breaks, you have the sprawl effect where WalMart > a) builds on cheap, (or even subsidized but I don’t have a cite for that) land that may be cheap in price but still has the same environmental, traffic, and infrastructure impact that land closer to consumers would have, and > b) causes customers to expend resources to get to said faraway store. And c) pays such poor wages that many of their employees must turn to public assistance for basic needs. I understand they even offer advice and counseling to their employees on how to get such assistance. So they’re transferring a large part of their labor costs to the taxpayers. ---
**Author:** ![levdrakon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@levdrakon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/levdrakon)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2013, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-walmartization-of-america-comes-full-circle/650757/230 "2013-02-23T19:35:37Z")
> [@LonesomePolecat](#): > > And c) pays such poor wages that many of their employees must turn to public assistance for basic needs. I understand they even offer advice and counseling to their employees on how to get such assistance. So they’re transferring a large part of their labor costs to the taxpayers. Sounds like corporate welfare! ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2013, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-walmartization-of-america-comes-full-circle/650757/231 "2013-02-23T19:49:55Z")
> [@LonesomePolecat](#): > > I think you need to explain which points are questionable first. No, I don’t. That’s not how debates work. The person making the claims is obligated to back them up. > [@](#): > > There’s no doubt that we’ve had high unemployment for quite some time and there’s been heavy downward pressure on wages and benefits, that the average American household has lost a lot of income and wealth since 2008, that retirement is becoming more and more unlikely for more and more American workers, that employers are drastically reducing the number of full time workers to avoid paying for benefits, etc. etc. Frankly, I think the burden of evidence and argument is more on you than Senor Beef. Frankly, you are wrong. See above. Your post is not your cite, nor is Sr. Beef’s. ---
**Author:** ![levdrakon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@levdrakon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/levdrakon)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2013, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-walmartization-of-america-comes-full-circle/650757/232 "2013-02-23T19:52:46Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > No, I don’t. That’s not how debates work. The person making the claims is obligated to back them up. > > Frankly, you are wrong. See above. Your post is not your cite, nor is Sr. Beef’s. Isn’t “you are wrong” a claim that needs backing up? ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2013, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-walmartization-of-america-comes-full-circle/650757/233 "2013-02-23T20:07:17Z")
> [@levdrakon](#): > > Middle Class entitlements is not the same as “lazy entitled poor people, immigrants, minorities, Americans,” etc. “Middle class entitlements” is also not the same as “giving everything to the rich”. Therefore, since the US is in debt because of middle class entitlements, it is not the case, as you claimed, that we are in debt because we gave everything to the rich. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![levdrakon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@levdrakon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/levdrakon)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2013, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-walmartization-of-america-comes-full-circle/650757/234 "2013-02-23T20:31:41Z")
The richest 20% of the country owns almost 88% of the wealth. The top 1% owns fully 37% of the wealth. I’d say “we gave it all to the rich” is more accurate than “the debt is because of middle class entitlements.” BTW, do you have a cite for that? > **[Distribution of wealth](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Distribution_of_wealth)** > > The distribution of wealth is a comparison of the wealth of various members or groups in a society. It shows one aspect of economic inequality or economic heterogeneity. > The distribution of wealth differs from the income distribution in that it looks at the economic distribution of ownership of the assets in a society, rather than the current income of members of that society. According to the International Association for Research in Income and Wealth, "the world distribution of wealth is much ... ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2013, 10:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-walmartization-of-america-comes-full-circle/650757/235 "2013-02-23T22:33:20Z")
> [@levdrakon](#): > > The richest 20% of the country owns almost 88% of the wealth. The top 1% owns fully 37% of the wealth. I’d say “we gave it all to the rich” is more accurate than “the debt is because of middle class entitlements.” You can say it, but that doesn’t make it true. The US government is not in debt because they gave everything to the rich. > [@](#): > > As this 2012 edition of Federal Spending by the Numbers shows, total federal spending for fiscal year 2012[1] reached $3.6 trillion, or 22.9 percent the size of the entire U.S. economy. In the past 20 years, federal outlays have grown 71 percent faster than inflation. The average American household’s share of this spending is $29,691, roughly two-thirds of median household income. This relentless growth is projected to continue, pushing total government outlays to $5.5 trillion a decade from now, and to about 36 percent of gross domestic product (GDP) in the next 25 years. > > Federal entitlements are driving this spending growth, having increased from less than half of total federal outlays just 20 years ago to nearly 62 percent in 2012. Three major programs—Medicare, Medicaid, and Social Security—dominate in size and growth, soaking up about 44 percent of the budget. All three programs are growing faster than inflation, and—when joined with $1.7 trillion in new Obamacare spending—will drain about 18.5 percent of the nation’s total economic output by mid-century. > > _snip_ > > Other entitlements continue growing as well. Anti-poverty programs have surged by 49 percent in just the past decade, even after adjusting for inflation. Spending for food stamps alone has more than tripled since 2002. Health programs, including Medicaid, have increased by 38 percent, and housing assistance by 48 percent. [Cite](http://www.heritage.org/research/reports/2012/10/federal-spending-by-the-numbers-2012). Which program would you characterize as a give away to the rich - Medicare, Medicaid, Social Security, or food stamps and housing assistance? Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![levdrakon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@levdrakon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/levdrakon)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2013, 10:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-walmartization-of-america-comes-full-circle/650757/236 "2013-02-23T22:45:49Z")
How did the rich get all the wealth? Did they find it in a brown paper bag on the street and decided to keep it? ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2013, 10:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-walmartization-of-america-comes-full-circle/650757/237 "2013-02-23T22:55:47Z")
> [@panaccione](#): > > Ok I’ve ranted for quite a while. I’ve learned some things and I appreciate that. This will be it for a while. > > The current system seems out of control, but our choices are limited at this point. Here’s what I don’t get. Conservatives and Libertarians are all for a free market, minimal government, minimal taxes. So, why are these giant corporations, oil companies, and banks receiving subsidy? I understand that they are important, but aren’t they profitable on their own? > > I admit I don’t have a fine economic sense, but it seems quite hypocritical and unproductive. This is why I think a Libertarian viewpoint is irresponsible. Libertarians are opposed to such subsidies. There is no hypocrisy there. Non-libertarian conservatives are a mixed bag, economically. > [@panaccione](#): > > That is why democracy is the only way. Democracy is not an economic system, just as capitalism is not a political system. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2013, 10:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-walmartization-of-america-comes-full-circle/650757/238 "2013-02-23T22:58:27Z")
> [@levdrakon](#): > > How did the rich get all the wealth? Did they find it in a brown paper bag on the street and decided to keep it? Through the marketplace: salaries, investment income, and so on. Not through government spending. Thus, they had little to no part in the national debt, which is primarily a result of excess military spending, and middle-to-lower class programs like Social Security and Medicare. ---
**Author:** ![Labrador\_Deceiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7c8e57/32.png) [@Labrador\_Deceiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Labrador_Deceiver)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2013, 11:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-walmartization-of-america-comes-full-circle/650757/239 "2013-02-23T23:08:32Z")
> [@levdrakon](#): > > How did the rich get all the wealth? Did they find it in a brown paper bag on the street and decided to keep it? Are you saying they borrowed it from the US government? Do you understand how debt works? ---
**Author:** ![LonesomePolecat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a88e57/32.png) [@LonesomePolecat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LonesomePolecat)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2013, 11:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-walmartization-of-america-comes-full-circle/650757/240 "2013-02-23T23:20:11Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > No, I don’t. That’s not how debates work. The person making the claims is obligated to back them up. No, John, debates don’t work by throwing the burden of evidence and argument on one side. Both sides must support their positions, and you can’t insist that you’re not obligated to do any heavy lifting because it’s the other side that’s making claims. Obviously, you think those claims are highly doubtful or simply wrong, but you aren’t willing to say why. This isn’t a case of simply being prudent about an unsupported proposition, it’s a case of conflicting points of view, and you aren’t entitled to opt out of doing your homework just by insisting that “it’s the other side that’s making claims.” > [@John\_Mace](#): > > Frankly, you are wrong. See above. Your post is not your cite, nor is Sr. Beef’s. Well, John, believe it or not, I do keep up with the news and current events somewhat, and recently it’s come to my attention that, according to pretty much every source of information I’ve come across from far left to far right, there’s a very, very widespread consensus that the working and middle classes have been hit hard in the last five years, and that living standards for millions of people have suffered badly. I’m not just relying on the media for that, either. I’ve seen an awful lot of bad things happening to family, friends, acquaintances and myself. Before I retired from a state position, I and my co-workers hadn’t received merit pay increases for five years, and for three of those years we were furloughed without pay for one day a month. Basically, we took temporary pay cuts and watched our purchasing power shrink for five years even with modest inflation. Our medical insurance costs went up, the deductibles and co-pays went up, and the deposits to our HRAs shrank. And I’m somewhat lucky. New hires will not get pensions, only 401k’s to which the state doesn’t contribute. The staff began to shrink as our department didn’t replace people who retired, resigned or otherwise left. Our work loads increased. Some of the work was outsourced to contractors who got their consultants, as they were called, from foreign countries under the H1B visa program. The work was being given to foreigners rather than to American citizens. I have two nieces trying to enter the work force. They manage to get part-time work in the service industries, but the jobs seldom last, don’t pay much, and don’t provide any benefits. Another niece has a husband in the IT field who is becoming desperate because employers keep abusing the H1B program to bring in cheap foreign labor, making it difficult for him to find and keep work. I have a brother in his late fifties who’s finally given up on trying to find work at all and gone on disability. He spends most of his day on the couch drinking beer and watching TV. My sister-in-law has become very worried about him. I could go on and on here. So, yeah, John, I’d say you have a pretty heavy burden of evidence and argument here. You’re asking me not only to doubt or disbelieve news sources from all across the political spectrum who agree that the middle and working classes are getting hammered, but to doubt the things that I’ve seen for myself in my own life. You can’t just insist, “Oh, but it’s your side that’s making claims!” and then sit back to nitpick and quibble about any information that’s offered you. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-walmartization-of-america-comes-full-circle/650757.md?page=11) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-walmartization-of-america-comes-full-circle/650757.md?page=13)