# The Walmartization of America comes full circle **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 19, 2013, 2:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-walmartization-of-america-comes-full-circle/650757 "2013-02-19T02:01:03Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2013, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-walmartization-of-america-comes-full-circle/650757/141 "2013-02-20T21:58:24Z")
> [@panaccione](#): > > You can’t compare what happened in the past on the farms to modern day. That’s not fair. You can’t say what would happen if they went back either. Technology has improved a great deal since then. Unless of course you have a cite? Life on the farm in China _sucks_. Why do you think people are begging to move to the cities for factory jobs? But I’m not giving you any cites\* until you back up your claims of what life is like in the factories. \*Other than [this one](http://www.china.org.cn/english/2004/Feb/88515.htm), which is a bit out of date, but things have not changed substantively since then. ---
**Author:** ![panaccione](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/94ad74/32.png) [@panaccione](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panaccione)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2013, 10:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-walmartization-of-america-comes-full-circle/650757/142 "2013-02-20T22:07:16Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Life on the farm in China _sucks_. Why do you think people are begging to move to the cities for factory jobs? > > But I’m not giving you any cites\* until you back up your claims of what life is like in the factories. > > \*Other than [this one](http://www.china.org.cn/english/2004/Feb/88515.htm), which is a bit out of date, but things have not changed substantively since then. I don’t get your point of view. It’s like a job on the farm sucks, but the one in the city sucks a little less. In both cases they are being exploited, but it’s ok because they’re free to look for better opportunity. But there is none, because the powers that be would rather reap massive profits than provide a fair wage. But, of course, it’s the workers fault, because he should do somthing about it. Even in the face of overwhelming oppression. and you defend this. Why? Should things go on like this or is there a better solution? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2013, 10:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-walmartization-of-america-comes-full-circle/650757/143 "2013-02-20T22:09:53Z")
> [@panaccione](#): > > I don’t get your point of view. It’s like a job on the farm sucks, but the one in the city sucks a little less. In both cases they are being exploited, but it’s ok because they’re free to look for better opportunity. But there is none, because the powers that be would rather reap massive profits than provide a fair wage. But, of course, it’s the workers fault, because he should do somthing about it. Even in the face of overwhelming oppression. > > and you defend this. Why? Should things go on like this or is there a better solution? How is it exploiting someone by offering them a better opportunity? Do you think you can just wave a magic wand and “presto-change-o” make the whole world into a copy of the US? Why is the US the standard? Maybe those Chinese workers are being “exploited” if they don’t make 2x what American workers make? ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2013, 10:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-walmartization-of-america-comes-full-circle/650757/144 "2013-02-20T22:24:10Z")
[QUOTE=panaccione] I don’t get your point of view. It’s like a job on the farm sucks, but the one in the city sucks a little less. In both cases they are being exploited, but it’s ok because they’re free to look for better opportunity. [/QUOTE] You are using the word ‘exploited’ in a rather strange way, to be honest. Why are either exploitation? If you expect a company, ANY company to come in and offer this Chinese worker the equivalent pay and benefits to someone living in the US or Europe, then said worker would have NO alternative opportunities. The only reason they have even marginally better opportunities is because they are willing to work so cheaply…as someone said up thread, the alternative to bad jobs isn’t good jobs but no jobs, go back to the farm and scratch a living there. > [@](#): > > But there is none, because the powers that be would rather reap massive profits than provide a fair wage. What would a fair wage be, exactly? The same thing that a worker in the US, Canada or Europe makes? A FAIR wage is something that attracts potential workers, not some arbitrary wage you are pulling out of your ass. Because if companies had to pay whatever arbitrary ‘fair’ wage you are setting, then they wouldn’t be going to China to build manufacturing plants there…which would mean that instead of China being on the road to prosperity it would basically be bound at a low level agricultural economy for ever. This has nothing to do with ‘the powers that be’, but rather is part of that reality stuff you seem bent on ignoring. > [@](#): > > But, of course, it’s the workers fault, because he should do somthing about it. Even in the face of overwhelming oppression. Strawman…no one is saying this in this thread. > [@](#): > > and you defend this. Why? Should things go on like this or is there a better solution? Because it’s reality I presume. And things won’t go on like that forever. All nations go through this, starting out as basically agrarian and then going through a sweat shop period, and eventually to some level of prosperity. China has already started to climb in prosperity. It will be a long time before they match the west wrt wages and benefits, obviously (well, obviously to me, perhaps not to you), but eventually they will be much, much better than they are today. It’s not something you can just dictate by fiat and have happen on command though. ---
**Author:** ![panaccione](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/94ad74/32.png) [@panaccione](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panaccione)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2013, 10:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-walmartization-of-america-comes-full-circle/650757/145 "2013-02-20T22:35:02Z")
You know what I think you might have changed my mind. A fair wage will never be available in all positions. The supply of labor truly runs on scarcity. But, I still think exploited is the operative word. When people have to endlessly struggle for the basic necessities in life, what else can you call it? I’m still not on board with defending this strategy though. We need to get our priorities straight first. But I think I can be a bit more accepting of it now. ---
**Author:** ![PatriotGrrrl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/9dc877/32.png) [@PatriotGrrrl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotGrrrl)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2013, 11:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-walmartization-of-america-comes-full-circle/650757/146 "2013-02-20T23:20:59Z")
> [@panaccione](#): > > Lets see. Making only a few dollars an hour. Working long, brutal shifts. Watching their children starve to death , which is quite common around the world. Being ravaged by disease with no support from the government, let alone the corporation. No access to education to empower themselves. > > Tell me, in what ways are they benefitting from this situation? And yet, the Chinese don’t even know that they aren’t making enough money to satisfy **panaccione**. But we all know asians are stupid and need westerners to take care of them. You can’t expect them to make their own decisions like white do. ---
**Author:** ![panaccione](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/94ad74/32.png) [@panaccione](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panaccione)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2013, 11:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-walmartization-of-america-comes-full-circle/650757/147 "2013-02-20T23:30:49Z")
> [@PatriotGrrrl](#): > > And yet, the Chinese don’t even know that they aren’t making enough money to satisfy **panaccione**. But we all know asians are stupid and need westerners to take care of them. You can’t expect them to make their own decisions like white do. I’m quite aware that the Chinese don’t know what I think. Don’t get it twisted either, this isn’t about the Chinese. That was just an example (that I didn’t even come up with). I never once implied any sort of racism or stupidity on their part. I’m talking about the big picture. Nice try. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2013, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-walmartization-of-america-comes-full-circle/650757/148 "2013-02-20T23:32:21Z")
> [@panaccione](#): > > You know what I think you might have changed my mind. A fair wage will never be available in all positions. The supply of labor truly runs on scarcity. > > But, I still think exploited is the operative word. When people have to endlessly struggle for the basic necessities in life, what else can you call it? > > I’m still not on board with defending this strategy though. We need to get our priorities straight first. But I think I can be a bit more accepting of it now. The young people (and they are almost all young people) working in those factories are trying to make a better life for themselves. They want their kids to go to college and have better lives than they have. And they probably expect to be promoted as the years go by and not have to “struggle”. That is the way of the world. It’s the way immigrants came here and worked their way up, and it’s the way internal migrants in China are doing the same. The middle class there is is exploding, and they are going to want political change at some point. This is a good thing. You can’t go from ox-cart farmer to suburbanite American with the snap of a finger. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2013, 11:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-walmartization-of-america-comes-full-circle/650757/149 "2013-02-20T23:42:12Z")
[QUOTE=panaccione] But, I still think exploited is the operative word. When people have to endlessly struggle for the basic necessities in life, what else can you call it? [/QUOTE] I call that life, especially life outside of the few lucky people who are born in one of the rich western nations. Even there, people have to struggle, though usually it’s not a matter of life and death, but more a matter of wanting a bit more than the basics. But for the majority of humans and for the majority of our history, an endless struggle for the basic necessities of life was and is basically just reality. You did it because you had to, and you didn’t have any other options. > [@](#): > > A fair wage will never be available in all positions. My point was that a ‘fair wage’ is going to vary from person to person…there is no way to set a yardstick that is meaningful wrt fairness. It boils down to personal choice…am I willing to take the offered wage with the offered conditions in exchange for my labor, or should I take my services somewhere else who will pay me more, or give me some other real or perceived advantage to me by doing so? IS there somewhere else that I can go…are my skills in demand, or are they the skills that everyone has or can be trained to do? Someone making that calculation who is working on a dirt farm in China and looking at the potential for a factory job and looking at the advantages and disadvantages is going to make a different calculation of potential fairness than you are…and, honestly, THEY are in a much better position to judge their options than you or I are, and judge what is or isn’t fair to them as an exchange for their labor. That’s the thing you are missing here IMHO…and the thing that is always missed in these threads. What people are trying to do in here is to set an arbitrary level of fairness (whatever that actually means), and then dictate what that should be not only to the workers but to the companies who are wanting workers to do a job for them. ---
**Author:** ![panaccione](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/94ad74/32.png) [@panaccione](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panaccione)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2013, 11:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-walmartization-of-america-comes-full-circle/650757/150 "2013-02-20T23:54:55Z")
True. The one thing that always gave me pause about my own point of view was the fact that learning from your mistakes and overcoming them can be one of the most powerful learning experiences available. Making things too easy can be detrimental in some ways. I’m still holding true to what I consider “the priorities” of an efficient government though. I think that these things set the foundation for us to live and work upon. They are too important for us to neglect or leave in the hands of a private entity. We are all born into this world and are entitled to the basic necessities that it provides. Not to say that you shouldn’t have to work for them, but that this is a common responsibility that we all share. I think that my passion for this ideology blinded me somewhat from what was true on the opposite end of the spectrum. I’ll probably bite my tounge a bit more before I start criticizing private enterprise and listen a little more closely. ---
**Author:** ![panaccione](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/94ad74/32.png) [@panaccione](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panaccione)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2013, 11:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-walmartization-of-america-comes-full-circle/650757/151 "2013-02-20T23:58:01Z")
> [@XT](#): > > I call that life “All life is suffering” - Buddha ---
**Author:** ![emacknight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/3ec8ea/32.png) [@emacknight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emacknight)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2013, 12:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-walmartization-of-america-comes-full-circle/650757/152 "2013-02-21T00:17:29Z")
> [@panaccione](#): > > “All life is suffering” - Buddha “The Buddha discovered that the direct causes of suffering are desire or craving, and ignorance.” ---
**Author:** ![panaccione](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/94ad74/32.png) [@panaccione](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panaccione)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2013, 12:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-walmartization-of-america-comes-full-circle/650757/153 "2013-02-21T00:21:59Z")
nm. I talk too much. ---
**Author:** ![levdrakon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@levdrakon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/levdrakon)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2013, 12:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-walmartization-of-america-comes-full-circle/650757/154 "2013-02-21T00:49:26Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > As a wise man said, “the alternative to bad jobs isn’t good jobs, it’s no jobs.” Yeah but the same guy said “the alternative to slavery isn’t freedom, it’s death.” Most people don’t listen to that guy much anymore. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2013, 1:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-walmartization-of-america-comes-full-circle/650757/155 "2013-02-21T01:46:34Z")
> [@panaccione](#): > > We are all born into this world and are entitled to the basic necessities that it provides. Not to say that you shouldn’t have to work for them, but that this is a common responsibility that we all share. I think that my passion for this ideology blinded me somewhat from what was true on the opposite end of the spectrum. We are all entitled to the same opportunities. However all the basic necessities are the result of someone else’s labor - farmers, doctors, carpenters, textile makers and all the middle men in between. The reason so many countries are in debt is because people think they are entitled to a lot more wealth than is actually being generated. > [@PatriotGrrrl](#): > > But we all know asians are stupid and need westerners to take care of them. You can’t expect them to make their own decisions like white do. I guess you don’t work in a technical or quant field?😉 ---
**Author:** ![panaccione](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/94ad74/32.png) [@panaccione](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panaccione)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2013, 3:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-walmartization-of-america-comes-full-circle/650757/156 "2013-02-21T03:10:26Z")
We are all entitled to the same opportunities, but in reality we are not born into the same. Yes, the basic necessities are produced from the work of others, however we all share the common responsibility to take care of one another. Which implies that we all must work together, not that it’s ok for some to be lazy. That is not the only reason so many countries are in debt. I don’t really want to get into again, though. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2013, 4:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-walmartization-of-america-comes-full-circle/650757/157 "2013-02-21T04:49:41Z")
> [@panaccione](#): > > “All life is suffering” - Buddha “It’s like a flock of orcs…'cept orcs don’t fly!” - War Mage ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2013, 4:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-walmartization-of-america-comes-full-circle/650757/158 "2013-02-21T04:51:45Z")
> [@astro](#): > > People’s memories are often very short. Do you really think that mid-to small town retail offered bargain prices and wide selection? They did not. Nor is that the point of the commentary. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2013, 4:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-walmartization-of-america-comes-full-circle/650757/159 "2013-02-21T04:52:59Z")
> [@bump](#): > > Here’s the thing that his article entirely ignores- it’s not some unique property of big-box stores that are making them struggle; it’s general economic conditions. > > Or put a little differently- if the big-box retailers, with their finely tuned logistical and purchasing systems and vast economies of scale are struggling, how in the world does he think that Mom & Pop shops are going to outcompete them in a contracting economy? By buying from more local and therefore soon-to-be-cheaper manufacturers/wholesalers. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2013, 4:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-walmartization-of-america-comes-full-circle/650757/160 "2013-02-21T04:55:48Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > Most economists seem to disagree with you. [ur=[Amazon.com](http://www.amazon.com/Bad-Samaritans-Secret-History-Capitalism/dp/1596915986/ref=sr_1_3?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1361422503&sr=1-3&keywords=ha-joon+chang)]Ha-joon Chang is an economist. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-walmartization-of-america-comes-full-circle/650757.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-walmartization-of-america-comes-full-circle/650757.md?page=9)