# The war does not seem to be going well - now what? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 29, 2001, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-war-does-not-seem-to-be-going-well-now-what/90347 "2001-10-29T19:42:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 10\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![system](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/original/2X/e/e489c3b7d8fce19c4b355dd4fc3f88cc39c34b87.png) [@system](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/system)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2001, 6:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-war-does-not-seem-to-be-going-well-now-what/90347/61 "2001-11-01T06:28:39Z")
Sam, I do agree with your scenario. That is how it will play out, but sometimes things are about limiting losses. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by leander \* > \*\*“wounded sense of self…” > > Heehee. I dunno why you’d think that since I keep exposing you for what you are: an arrogant, ignorant ass. Ah, yes, I had forgotten the part where you exposed my ignorance with your own extensive knowledge. Forgive me, I was perhaps in a parrallel univerise where you merely posted assertions as to the stability of Pakistan based on a White House press conference and other items of similar weight while never quite replying to anything substantive. > [@](#): > > But again, this is not the place for diatribe; so let’s not bait each other, shall we? I have to have my hobbies. > [@](#): > > My point was only that this is the time for thoughtful rhetoric and not jingoistic outbursts. Wonderful, I shall be sure to look to you for models of clear understanding of others writing. > [@](#): > > (Oh yeah, and I was _clarifying_ something you said. Sorry your ego can’t take it.) It is helpful when clarifying to get it right. ---
**Author:** ![leander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/bcef8e/32.png) [@leander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/leander)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2001, 6:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-war-does-not-seem-to-be-going-well-now-what/90347/62 "2001-11-01T06:30:08Z")
Too easy, kid, too easy… ---
**Author:** ![system](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/original/2X/e/e489c3b7d8fce19c4b355dd4fc3f88cc39c34b87.png) [@system](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/system)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2001, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-war-does-not-seem-to-be-going-well-now-what/90347/63 "2001-11-01T15:45:07Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Collounsbury \* > First, I could give a fuck if a NA government is better on human rights. That is not my goal, it is not a rational goal in a country of utter poverty, of more than 20 years of war and hatred. My goal is to disrupt the al-Qaeda network, destroy one of its main nodes and send a big ass message that there is a price for 11 September. > > That goal should be reasonablely bounded but I think it’s clear. Hmm, well let me qualify what I said. I do hope that the NA government will be a step up from the Taleban on the human rights scale. It’s a rather abysmal standard. What I meant above is waiting on a government that will make our Western HR lobby feel all warm and fuzzy inside is fairly useless. It’s a matter of not letting the perfect be the enemy of the good. ---
**Author:** ![IzzyR](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/2acd7d/32.png) [@IzzyR](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IzzyR)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2001, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-war-does-not-seem-to-be-going-well-now-what/90347/64 "2001-11-01T16:09:58Z")
I think the offer of a trial for OBL was worthless. Beyond the objections mentioned by other posters, I’m skeptical if the evidence linking OBL to the WTC bombings is of the type that would stand up in court. I would imagine it would be of the sort “so-and-so was involved and had known links to so-and-so who is a member of the OBL group” etc. This is the type of stuff that is good enough for intelligence analysts, but might not be enough to find OBL guilty, especially if the tribunal is not opposed to OBL. If OBL were being tried by a US court he might well be found innocent. OTOH, under warlike circumstances sometimes you gotta do what you gotta do. > [@](#): > > _Originally posted by Collounsbury_ > So, on one hand, yes I agree we must hunt down Mullah Omar et coterie, and ObL et coterie and kill them. Not try them. Kill them. Hmm, maybe you’re not such a liberal after all… I wouldn’t hope for too much out of the NA. They were pretty bad last time they were in power. Which is one reason the Taliban are so popular. This is also one reason the US has been wavering in supporting them. But I think recent setbacks may be changing this. ---
**Author:** ![system](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/original/2X/e/e489c3b7d8fce19c4b355dd4fc3f88cc39c34b87.png) [@system](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/system)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2001, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-war-does-not-seem-to-be-going-well-now-what/90347/65 "2001-11-01T16:25:21Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by IzzyR \* > > > [@](#): > > > > _Originally posted by Collounsbury_ > > So, on one hand, yes I agree we must hunt down Mullah Omar et coterie, and ObL et coterie and kill them. Not try them. Kill them. > > Hmm, maybe you’re not such a liberal after all… You’ve all read me wrong if you all thought I was a liberal. Bloody hell, look at my discussions on free trade with Kimstu many months back. > [@](#): > > I wouldn’t hope for too much out of the NA. They were pretty bad last time they were in power. Which is one reason the Taliban are so popular. This is also one reason the US has been wavering in supporting them. But I think recent setbacks may be changing this. Quite right, thus my repeated statements in re developing assets of our own. However, also Afghanistan is not a place where one can make choices and come out smelling like a rose. ---
**Author:** ![IzzyR](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/2acd7d/32.png) [@IzzyR](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IzzyR)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2001, 1:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-war-does-not-seem-to-be-going-well-now-what/90347/66 "2001-11-02T01:30:06Z")
Excellent (if depressing) article in the Washington Post: [At Pentagon: Worries Over War’s Costs, Consequences](http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A27875-2001Oct20.html) ---
**Author:** ![system](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/original/2X/e/e489c3b7d8fce19c4b355dd4fc3f88cc39c34b87.png) [@system](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/system)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2001, 4:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-war-does-not-seem-to-be-going-well-now-what/90347/67 "2001-11-02T04:33:29Z")
Izzy, it’s a good article. Of course I confess I think so because it makes precisely the points I have been trying to make so far in this and other threads. ---
**Author:** ![Tejota](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/958977/32.png) [@Tejota](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tejota)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2001, 9:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-war-does-not-seem-to-be-going-well-now-what/90347/68 "2001-11-02T09:03:43Z")
[http://www.tnr.com/111201/kaplan111201.html](http://www.tnr.com/111201/kaplan111201.html) > [@](#): > > commander of U.S. forces in the Middle East, General Tommy R. Franks, enjoys unprecedented room for maneuver in conducting the war. Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld and Myers speak with Franks twice a day, but it is Franks who decides which targets to hit–and, more important, which not to. > … > according to senior defense officials, Franks’s approach to the war has thus far been characterized by a marked aversion to risk. In addition to his infamous decision to seek legal counsel before bombing Mullah Omar’s compound (thereby permitting him to escape), the career artillery officer has employed special forces teams neither aggressively nor creatively. In essence, the story says that Bush refuses to manage the war directly, and the General in charge hasn’t got the balls to do the job properly. Not good news, but hopefully Bush will get fed up with lack of progress after a while and start kicking some High Brass butt. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2001, 1:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-war-does-not-seem-to-be-going-well-now-what/90347/69 "2001-11-04T01:29:28Z")
Why is it preferable to kill bin Laden instead of capturing him alive and taking him for trial, one asks? Assuming it’s even possible, of course. Try this: Every day he’s in custody, either before his trial or after his sentencing, there will be a risk of other elements of his organization or its sympathizers trying some other act of terrorism, probably kidnapping on as large a scale as possible, and demanding bin Laden’s release in exchange for releasing the hostages. The military means at hand would not be certain to end the situation, and there would be a risk of another right away. The only way to avoid that would be to militarily destroy or incapacitate the organization first, and save the capture of bin Laden for last - I just don’t think that could be managed. If he’s dead, there’s no additional leverage the remaining organization would have. I think that’s enough reason to claim he was trying to escape and it that it was therefore necessary to shoot him to stop him. And that’s before considering how a trial would allow him a pulpit to reach and inspire another round of fundamentalist militants for another generation of this crap. We have a laudable stated long-term goal of draining the swamp, and we need to emphasize it perhaps more than we are at present. ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2001, 4:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-war-does-not-seem-to-be-going-well-now-what/90347/70 "2001-11-05T04:58:17Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by jshore \* > \*\* > > > [@](#): > > > > \*Originally posted by Sam Stone \* > > At some point, the media had better learn that with freedom comes responsibility. They act like spoiled children, with the grade-school notion that anything that is legal to say is right to say. > > But, Sam, isn’t this what capitalism and the free market is all about? Don’t the media conglomerates have a fiduciary responsibility to their stockholders to go for the highest viewership (and resulting revenues) possible? And, hey, if a few lives are sacrificed in the process, it’s sort of like layoffs, right? > \*\* Except that the public will hate and despise any media organization that would do such a despicable, treasonous thing. How are you going to keep advertisers when you broadcast things that kill our soldiers? Don’t you think that might have a teensy effect on the fawking bottom line? This reasoning is specious, and is just a cheap shot against capitalism. If you think the media should betray our country, then say so. Otherwise, stop setting up straw men. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-war-does-not-seem-to-be-going-well-now-what/90347.md?page=3)