# The war has begun??? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [March 20, 2003, 2:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-war-has-begun/162706 "2003-03-20T02:38:40Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![CuriousCanuck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/d2c977/32.png) [@CuriousCanuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CuriousCanuck)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2003, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-war-has-begun/162706/61 "2003-03-20T15:17:49Z")
What exactly are you looking for? George Bush addressed the world that military strikes were now taking place. Before the address positions in Iraq were bombed. Missiles were sent before the actual declaration of war, becasue the US saw an opportunity to decapitate the Iraqi government. Assassination attempts on a world leader before war is declared is a war crime. For a history of these events, you can read from: > **[The Globe and Mail: Canadian, World, Politics and Business News & Analysis](https://www.theglobeandmail.com/)** > > The Globe and Mail offers the most authoritative news in Canada, featuring national and international news > **[CNN - Breaking News, Latest News and Videos](https://www.cnn.com)** > > View the latest news and breaking news today for U.S., world, weather, entertainment, politics and health at CNN.com. to name but two (one in the US, one not). ---
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2003, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-war-has-begun/162706/62 "2003-03-20T15:32:28Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Diogenes the Cynic \* > [off-topic digression]I served _almost_ twenty years ago, and let me tell you gobear, I think your idealism would have been pretty severely challenged by the rampant homphobia that was present in the military back then (I don’t know how it is now, maybe it’s better). > They actually used homophobic taunts as part of training (“What are you, some kind of faggot?”) > > Just out of curiosity (I don’t talk to very many gay conservatives) how do you think you would have dealt with that aspect of the military?[/digression] \*\* I’m embarrassed to admit it, but I would very likely have totally bought into the homophobia at the time. In my early 20s I **hated** the idea of being gay because to me, gay guys were men who wanted to be women, and since I wasn’t the least bit feminine, there was no way I could be gay. I couldn’t reconcile my desire to love and be loved with the idea of gayness as being sick and unnatural (which was bad because years of physical and emotional abuse had already convinced me I was unworthy to live. For the same reason, I became an evangelical Christian so that God would see how hard I was trying not to be one of _them_. I can only plead youth and stupidity. To **Eva Luna** : > [@](#): > > And since when is opposing agression a purely partisan activity? Surely there is a Republican or two who oppose this war. Maybe you don’t hang out with them, but I do, and I’m damn proud to count them among my friends, even if they are Republicans **Jomo Mojo** said the he was ashamed to be an American and that’s what I reacted to. By all means oppose the president and disagree wioth his policies but _never_, **ever** say that you are ashamed of your country or your people. ---
**Author:** ![Amok](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/f17d59/32.png) [@Amok](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Amok)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2003, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-war-has-begun/162706/63 "2003-03-20T15:46:34Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by CuriousCanuck \* > Assassination attempts on a world leader before war is declared is a war crime. I’m pretty sure this is the point **Debaser** wanted supported. I’d like to see it too. Could you provide a link to the relevant treaty? Thanks. The U.S. has not declared war on Iraq and persumably won’t. An actual declaration of war would require a vote in congress not just a speech by a President. As far as I know, Bush’s speech was just to let America know what was happening, it didn’t have any relevance to international law. Therefore, I don’t understand why you think missiles aimed at Saddam prior to Bush’s speech were illegal, but missles afterwards wouldn’t be. ---
**Author:** ![hawthorne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c89c15/32.png) [@hawthorne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hawthorne)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2003, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-war-has-begun/162706/64 "2003-03-20T15:47:37Z")
> [@](#): > > _gobear_ > but never, ever say that you are ashamed of your country or your people. Why not? ---
**Author:** ![Eva\_Luna](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e495f1/32.png) [@Eva\_Luna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eva_Luna)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2003, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-war-has-begun/162706/65 "2003-03-20T15:57:14Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by gobear \* > > **Jomo Mojo** said the he was ashamed to be an American and that’s what I reacted to. By all means oppose the president and disagree wioth his policies but _never_, **ever** say that you are ashamed of your country or your people. He didn’t say he was ashamed of his country or its people; he said he was ashamed to be an American. I understood him completely, and if he feels that way, he certainly has the right to express it. You, of course, have the right to respectfully disagree (Lord, I hate splitting infinitives, but every other way to say that sounds awkward!) It would be nice, though, if we could all debate with each other without hurling insults. Have you ever spent an extended period overseas and had political opinions imputed to you because of your nationality? Perhaps this anecdote will shed some light: in 1988, I spent a semester in Spain. At that time, many Spaniards wanted the U.S. to close its military base at Torrejón, because they believed that NATO or no NATO, the planes, etc. stationed there made Spain a target for Soviet missiles. I couldn’t begin to tell you how many times I had to fend off angry, drunken Spaniards in bars who thought that I, as a 19-year-old American, somehow had a certain level of influence on Ronald Reagan’s foreign policy. It got to the point that I just stopped telling people I was American. I’d make stuff up; depending on who I was talking to, I’d try to pass for a Canadian, Italian, Romanian, or whatever I thought was less likely to get verbal abuse hurled at me. **Jomo Mojo** is certainly capable of clarifying this for himself, but I’m certainly concerned that many foreigners will impute the actions and beliefs of Bush, et. Al. to Americans at large, and we will see much ill will and terrorist activity directed at innocent American civilians as a result. I hope that if nothing else, America’s experiences over the past year or so will make many of us, especially those in positions of power and influence over foreign and international economic policy, do some long, hard thinking about why Americans are perceived as arrogant warmongers in far too many places. The current issue of \*Newsweek has an excellent and thought-provoking article on this subject: “The Arrogant Empire: America’s unprecedented power scares the world, and the Bush administration has only made it worse. How we got there, and what we can do about it now.” > **[MSNBC News - Breaking News and News Today | Latest News](https://www.msnbc.com/)** > > MSNBC breaking news and the latest news for today. Get daily news from local news reporters and world news updates with live audio & video from our team. I welcome any and all thoughts on this subject. ---
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2003, 4:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-war-has-begun/162706/66 "2003-03-20T16:04:20Z")
> [@](#): > > Have you ever spent an extended period overseas and had political opinions imputed to you because of your nationality? BWHAHAHAHA! Sugar, I spent six years living in Seoul, South Korea, where I had my nationality thrown in my face every goddamn day! You think it’s pleasant trying to take the rap for every drunken soldier who committed a crime off-base that got played up big in the papers or having to avoid the student demonstrations every spring? Hell, I got punched in the Taegu train station by an anti-American asshole who was looking for a white face to bust. But you know somethign? I never once “try to pass for a Canadian, Italian, Romanian, or whatever I thought was less likely to get verbal abuse hurled at me.” but then I’m not a coward. ---
**Author:** ![Eva\_Luna](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e495f1/32.png) [@Eva\_Luna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eva_Luna)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2003, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-war-has-begun/162706/67 "2003-03-20T16:13:58Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by gobear \* > \*\*BWHAHAHAHA! Sugar, I spent six years living in Seoul, South Korea, where I had my nationality thrown in my face every goddamn day! You think it’s pleasant trying to take the rap for every drunken soldier who committed a crime off-base that got played up big in the papers or having to avoid the student demonstrations every spring? Hell, I got punched in the Taegu train station by an anti-American asshole who was looking for a white face to bust. > But you know somethign? I never once “try to pass for a Canadian, Italian, Romanian, or whatever I thought was less likely to get verbal abuse hurled at me.” but then I’m not a coward. \*\* Well, I’m guessing you aren’t a 5’1", 110-pound woman, either, and are hopefully a little more able to depend yourself against your average 180-pound drunken Spaniard in a bar. I didn’t se the point in taking the rap for policies that I had no hand in making or enforcing, and with which I vehemently diagreed. If that makes me a coward in your eyes, so be it. I think it just makes me a vulnerable, but prudent person. Sorry I don’t know your life story; that’s why I asked. ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2003, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-war-has-begun/162706/68 "2003-03-20T16:55:20Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by gobear \* > \*\*By all means oppose the president and disagree wioth his policies but _never_, **ever** say that you are ashamed of your country or your people. \*\* The thought police have spoken. Those making the types of comments proscribed by **gobear** are to report to the nearest INS office for deportation. Some, upon demonstrating sufficient contrition, might be allowed to undergo rehabilitative training in order to remain in the US. Such training will involve an afternoon in a padded room, wrapped in the Stars and Stripes and watching a TV wall with continuous loops of Ann Coulter and Bill O’Reilly. What doesn’t kill you will only make you stronger. God Bless America. ---
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2003, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-war-has-begun/162706/69 "2003-03-20T17:02:12Z")
> [@](#): > > The thought police have spoken. Those making the types of comments proscribed by gobear are to report to the nearest INS office for deportation. Well, apparently your blinders have kept you from understanding what you quoted, so let me break it down for you: I am all for dissent. Go ahead and protest the war until you’re blue in the face. But I have a strong problem with people who trash the country because of the policies of the leaders. That way Jane Fonda and Sean Penn lie. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2003, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-war-has-begun/162706/70 "2003-03-20T17:12:21Z")
> [@](#): > > just because we peace activists disagree with you doesn’t make us ignorant, stupid, or even unpatriotic. Agreed. Just as being in favor of the war does not make us the same. Even Bush. **Airman Doors, USAF** - God go with you, and keep you safe, and give swift victory to the US and its allies. Thru Christ our Lord. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Mockingbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c68b51/32.png) [@Mockingbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mockingbird)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2003, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-war-has-begun/162706/71 "2003-03-20T17:17:57Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by gobear \* > \*\ ***Jomo Mojo** said the he was ashamed to be an American and that’s what I reacted to. By all means oppose the president and disagree wioth his policies but _never_, **ever** say that you are ashamed of your country or your people. \*\* May your sex life be as rigid and unwavering as your political beliefs. ---
**Author:** ![Eva\_Luna](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e495f1/32.png) [@Eva\_Luna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eva_Luna)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2003, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-war-has-begun/162706/72 "2003-03-20T17:24:11Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Shodan \* > \*\*Agreed. Just as being in favor of the war does not make us the same. Even Bush. > > \*\* Agreed to the extent that no specific individual should be considered stupid without evaluating his/her position on the war on an individual basis, including whatever he/she has made public about the reasoning behind said position and the information on which is based. Which means Bush is a whole other thread. [hijack] \*\*mhendo, \*\* INS no longer exists as of March 1, 2003; it has been subsumed into the Department of Homeland Security. I wrote a thread on this at the end of February, if anyone’s interested. Of course, it will take a while before those of us in the immigration field get used to saying DHS instead of INS; I’ve even heard various legislators slip and refer to INS while being interviewed on TV. [/hijack] ---
**Author:** ![Mockingbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c68b51/32.png) [@Mockingbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mockingbird)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2003, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-war-has-begun/162706/73 "2003-03-20T17:24:27Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by gobear \* > \*\*BWHAHAHAHA! Sugar, I spent six years living in Seoul, South Korea, where I had my nationality thrown in my face every goddamn day! You think it’s pleasant trying to take the rap for every drunken soldier who committed a crime off-base that got played up big in the papers or having to avoid the student demonstrations every spring? Hell, I got punched in the Taegu train station by an anti-American asshole who was looking for a white face to bust. > But you know somethign? I never once “try to pass for a Canadian, Italian, Romanian, or whatever I thought was less likely to get verbal abuse hurled at me.” but then I’m not a coward. \*\* Oh you big brave martyr to the cause. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Mockingbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c68b51/32.png) [@Mockingbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mockingbird)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2003, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-war-has-begun/162706/74 "2003-03-20T17:28:15Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by gobear \* > \*\*Well, apparently your blinders have kept you from understanding what you quoted, so let me break it down for you: > I am all for dissent. Go ahead and protest the war until you’re blue in the face. But I have a strong problem with people who trash the country because of the policies of the leaders. That way Jane Fonda and Sean Penn lie. \*\* Gee. We’ve got you telling us how to be a good American and Shodan is praying for our victory. Any thoughts of you taking a part of the county and turning it into a facist state of thought controlled masses who believes that for every move you make, your deity is on your side? :wally ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2003, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-war-has-begun/162706/75 "2003-03-20T17:29:32Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by gobear \* > \*\*Well, apparently your blinders have kept you from understanding what you quoted, so let me break it down for you: > I am all for dissent. Go ahead and protest the war until you’re blue in the face. But I have a strong problem with people who trash the country because of the policies of the leaders. That way Jane Fonda and Sean Penn lie. \*\* Actually, what i quoted seemed to be a pretty straightforward injunction. No matter that you _now_ say that you are “all for dissent,” this sentence: > [@](#): > > By all means oppose the president and disagree wioth his policies but _never_, **ever** say that you are ashamed of your country or your people. is a pretty clear indication that there are, in fact, certain types of dissent that you don’t support. Saying you “have a problem” with certain people, as you did in your most recent post, is not the same as ordering people not to say something, which is what the quoted sentence does. ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2003, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-war-has-begun/162706/76 "2003-03-20T17:33:30Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Eva Luna \* > \*\*[hijack] \*\*mhendo, \*\* INS no longer exists as of March 1, 2003; it has been subsumed into the Department of Homeland Security. I wrote a thread on this at the end of February, if anyone’s interested. Of course, it will take a while before those of us in the immigration field get used to saying DHS instead of INS; I’ve even heard various legislators slip and refer to INS while being interviewed on TV. [/hijack] \*\* You are, of course correct. As a foreign student studying in the US, i’m a little apprehensive about my next trip outside the country, because when i return it’s the DHS that i will have to deal with on my way back into the US. I’ve never had any problems before, but some of the stories in the media recently (e.g. Canadian woman having passport ripped up and being sent back to India) indicate that things are getting worse. I suppose one thing working in my favor is the fact that i’m from Australia, whose leader has his face firmly planted up George Bush’s arse. ---
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2003, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-war-has-begun/162706/77 "2003-03-20T17:40:26Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Mockingbird \* > \*\*May your sex life be as rigid and unwavering as your political beliefs. \*\* Why, thank you, but my dick is plenty hard. > [@](#): > > Oh you big brave martyr to the cause. Hey, I’ve taken my lumps as an American aqnd I have seen what it is like to live in an unfree society. What have you done? . . . Yeah, that’s what I thought. Fuck you. > [@](#): > > Gee. We’ve got you telling us how to be a good American and Shodan is praying for our victory. > > Any thoughts of you taking a part of the county and turning it into a facist state of thought controlled masses who believes that for every move you make, your deity is on your side Wow, exaggerate much? I am a libertarian, you moron, which means that I am for freedom from censorship. I support your right to speak out, but don’t expect me to approve or not to tell you exactly how I feel about those who enjoy the freedom of this country while disparaging the servicemen and women who secure those comforts for you. I think traducing our nation is wrong and I will continue to tell people that they shouldn’t do so, but that is NOT censorship, you goddam idiot. If there were ever a genuine threat form the government to your freedom to speak, I’ll be alongside you defending your right to protest while deploring what you have to say. Asshole. ---
**Author:** ![Mockingbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c68b51/32.png) [@Mockingbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mockingbird)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2003, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-war-has-begun/162706/78 "2003-03-20T18:16:42Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by gobear \* > \*\*Why, thank you, but my dick is plenty hard. > Hey, I’ve taken my lumps as an American aqnd I have seen what it is like to live in an unfree society. What have you done? > > . > . > . > Yeah, that’s what I thought. > > Fuck you. > > \*\* Listen, you self-righteous martyr: I have travelled outside the country. I have not denied my natonality when asked, even if it might have posed a threatening proposition. Even in Canada, many were disparaging on the basis of my national origin and treated me as if I was the narrowminded idiot that you show yourself to be. I vote in every election, I have worked for different political campaigns, and I have worked on my local level to maintain services for the disabled and disadvantaged. Who the fuck do you think you are to assume that you have the default on involvement and committment and that everyone else must be sub par in comparison? On top of having to deal with foreigners who see Americans as you are behaving, I also have to deal with a segment of my own people who feel that they can fall back to a pseudo Cold War/McCarthy like finger waving and righteous indignation. Oh… your dick, by the way? Whatever. Its rigdity seems to be a reflection of the inflexibility of your ‘mind.’ ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2003, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-war-has-begun/162706/79 "2003-03-20T18:25:42Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by gobear \* > \*\*Wow, exaggerate much? I am a libertarian, you moron, which means that I am for freedom from censorship. I support your right to speak out, but don’t expect me to approve or not to tell you exactly how I feel about those who enjoy the freedom of this country while disparaging the servicemen and women who secure those comforts for you. > > I think traducing our nation is wrong and I will continue to tell people that they shouldn’t do so, but that is NOT censorship, you goddam idiot. If there were ever a genuine threat form the government to your freedom to speak, I’ll be alongside you defending your right to protest while deploring what you have to say. \*\* You see, like quite a lot of libertarians who haven’t quite grasped the concepts that they supposedly support, **gobear** firmly believes in your right to say what you want, but is quite happy to tell you what you should be saying. Rather than say “I don’t agree with you, for the following reasons…” he actually tries to prescribe and proscribe the content of your speech, such as when he says: > [@](#): > > By all means oppose the president and disagree wioth his policies but _never_, **ever** say that you are ashamed of your country or your people. Of course, **gobear** insists that none of this is censorship, and in a narrow sense he’s correct. Because he also seems to be one of those libertarians who believes that the _only_ threat to liberty comes from government. It never occurs to him that having a whole bunch of flag-wavers in your face telling you to “_never_, **ever** say that you are ashamed of your country” might have a chilling effect on free speech. I often disagree with the other libertarians on this board - like **erislover** and **libertarian** - over many issues, but at least their libertarianism seems to be consistent and not simply a flag of convenience to be run up on some days and kept in the closet on others. ---
**Author:** ![More\_Cowbell](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b5a626/32.png) [@More\_Cowbell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/More_Cowbell)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2003, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-war-has-begun/162706/80 "2003-03-20T18:33:13Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Mockingbird \* > I have travelled outside the country. I have not denied my natonality when asked, even if it might have posed a threatening proposition. Is dumbfuck a nationality now? > [@](#): > > Even in Canada, many were disparaging on the basis of my national origin and treated me as if I was the narrowminded idiot that you show yourself to be. Canada? That hot bed of political unrest? How brave of you! > [@](#): > > I vote in every election, I have worked for different political campaigns, and I have worked on my local level to maintain services for the disabled and disadvantaged. Awwwww… take your hand, reach behind that head of yours and pat yourself on the back. It will probably be easier to do if you leave your head where it’s at, firmly up your ass. > [@](#): > > Who the fuck do you think you are to assume that you have the default on involvement and committment and that everyone else must be sub par in comparison? Nope, just you. > [@](#): > > On top of having to deal with foreigners who see Americans as you are behaving, I also have to deal with a segment of my own people who feel that they can fall back to a pseudo Cold War/McCarthy like finger waving and righteous indignation. God bless America! > [@](#): > > Oh… your dick, by the way? Whatever. Its rigdity seems to be a reflection of the inflexibility of your ‘mind.’ Now I’m not a gay man, but I’ll take gobear’s solid cock over your empty head anyday. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-war-has-begun/162706.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-war-has-begun/162706.md?page=5)