# The War in Iraq is going Well; Discuss.
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-war-in-iraq-is-going-well-discuss/206646
**Category:** Great Debates
**Created:** [October 10, 2003, 10:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-war-in-iraq-is-going-well-discuss/206646 "2003-10-10T10:42:25Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 4
### Author:  [@Rashak\_Mani](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rashak_Mani)
#### Post date: [October 13, 2003, 4:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-war-in-iraq-is-going-well-discuss/206646/61 "2003-10-13T04:02:17Z")
Doesn’t change the fact that someone is more concerned about writing positive letters to newspapers than what the soldiers themselves might want to say.
```
What if they want to send not so good news ? The way this administration seeks to punish dissent... its scary. Blab too much and we drag your family thru the newspaper mud. Every government no matter how popular or not has been criticized and has had dissent.
```
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### Author:  [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)
#### Post date: [October 13, 2003, 4:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-war-in-iraq-is-going-well-discuss/206646/62 "2003-10-13T04:26:15Z")
There have already been many letters with bad news, mainly from soldiers in areas where there are a lot of attacks.
The good news letters are mainly coming from peaceful areas.
It would also be nice if Americans knew that most of Iraq was at peace.
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### Author:  [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)
#### Post date: [October 13, 2003, 8:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-war-in-iraq-is-going-well-discuss/206646/63 "2003-10-13T08:02:21Z")
> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by adaher \*
> Judging from the story, it looks like a soldier wrote a letter and asked other soldiers to sign it and send it if they agreed with it.
Read the article again. Some of the soldiers’ superior officers gave them the letter, and then offered them a chance to sign it (and have it sent home) if they agreed with it. That means somebody _higher up in the chain of command_ wrote the letter, made copies, and distributed it to the grunts below. This is nowhere near “Joe wrote a letter and the rest of the gang signed it in solidarity.”
And don’t forget that some letters were sent home in soldiers’ names even when they _didn’t_ sign anything. Which means someone (again, higher up in the CoC) was harvesting names, slapping them on letters, and sending them out _without the soldiers’ knowledge._
Still not convinced this is a coordinated propaganda campaign?
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### Author:  [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)
#### Post date: [October 13, 2003, 8:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-war-in-iraq-is-going-well-discuss/206646/64 "2003-10-13T08:07:22Z")
> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by Rashak Mani \*
> What if they want to send not so good news ? The way this administration seeks to punish dissent… its scary. Blab too much and we drag your family thru the newspaper mud.
The soldiers in Iraq are probably too scared to say what’s _really_ on their minds, anyway. After all, look at how the Pentagon [punished those troopers](http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2003/07/18/MN248299.DTL) who gave their honest criticisms of the war and Donald Rumsfeld back in July:
> [@](#):
>
> On Wednesday morning, when the ABC news show reported from Fallujah, where the division is based, the troops gave the reporters an earful. One soldier said he felt like he’d been “kicked in the guts, slapped in the face.” Another demanded that Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld quit.
>
> The retaliation from Washington was swift.
>
> “It was the end of the world,” said one officer Thursday. “It went all the way up to President Bush and back down again on top of us. **At least six of us here will lose our careers.** ”
>
> First lesson for the troops, it seemed: Don’t ever talk to the media “on the record” – that is, with your name attached – unless you’re giving the sort of chin-forward, everything’s-great message the Pentagon loves to hear.
I can only imagine Donald’s as thin-skined as George is.
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### Author:  [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)
#### Post date: [October 13, 2003, 10:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-war-in-iraq-is-going-well-discuss/206646/65 "2003-10-13T10:32:23Z")
Mr. Svinlesha, your attendance is requested in [the pit.](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=217027)
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### Author:  [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)
#### Post date: [October 13, 2003, 12:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-war-in-iraq-is-going-well-discuss/206646/66 "2003-10-13T12:51:08Z")
> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by adaher \*
> \*\*
> It would also be nice if Americans knew that most of Iraq was at peace. \*\*
Most of Iraq is unpopulated or sparsely populated. The areas w/o people at all are completely peaceful. The minority of the country, the parts with people living in them, are the only parts that aren’t at peace.
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### Author:  [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)
#### Post date: [October 13, 2003, 12:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-war-in-iraq-is-going-well-discuss/206646/67 "2003-10-13T12:58:50Z")
> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by Sam Stone \*
> \*\*
> Y’know, when you say stuff like this, it sounds like you WANT Afghanistan to fail. It’s also incredibly snobbish.
> \*\*
An assessment of facts is not the same thing as cheering those facts.
> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by Sam Stone \*
> \*\*
> Afghanistan IS attracting significant amounts of private investment. They just set up a 100 million dollar line of credit with India for reconstruction. About 2 billion is coming from the U.S. next year. Canada now has 3,000 peacekeepers in country. There is a 50 million dollar Mariott being built in Kabul. Over 800 civil reconstruction projects have been completed by the army corps of engineers.
> \*\*
While these are great, theoir signifigance is relevant to the amount of need. If Afghanistan needs $40bil and the total aid available is $2bil, then the $2bil is inadequate. If, when you post these numbers, you could include the relevant relations needed to evaluate their signifigance, it would make your case more signifgant. As it is, when you post empty numbers, w/o their relative impact, it makes your posts appear designed to be disingenuous.
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### Author:  [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)
#### Post date: [October 13, 2003, 1:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-war-in-iraq-is-going-well-discuss/206646/68 "2003-10-13T13:02:28Z")
> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by rjung \*
> \*\*The soldiers in Iraq are probably too scared to say what’s _really_ on their minds, anyway. \*\*
Not the ones who’ve been sending [this letter to the newspapers](http://www.theolympian.com/home/news/20031011/frontpage/121390.shtml). No, everything is so fine and dandy over there that they all even use the same wording. No doubt it’s in so many places because of the need to get it into the RW blogs as _proof_ that things are fine and dandy over there. Thanks to the always-reliable (and you can check) DU for the heads-up.
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### Author:  [@Beagle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beagle)
#### Post date: [October 13, 2003, 1:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-war-in-iraq-is-going-well-discuss/206646/69 "2003-10-13T13:27:52Z")
DU?
That is one of the most viciously partisan, totally biased, sandbagging, strawmanning group of hateful Democrats in real or cyberspace. No, I won’t read through their spew and pick out lies.
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### Author:  [@Rashak\_Mani](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rashak_Mani)
#### Post date: [October 13, 2003, 1:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-war-in-iraq-is-going-well-discuss/206646/70 "2003-10-13T13:43:47Z")
This heavy hitting on internal dissent does seem to confirm suspicions that the administration can endure no admittance of being wrong in their quest for “good”. They react heavily when americans criticize since apparently they are less bothered by international recriminations. So much for democratic values.
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### Author:  [@Beagle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beagle)
#### Post date: [October 13, 2003, 1:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-war-in-iraq-is-going-well-discuss/206646/71 "2003-10-13T13:48:58Z")
Heavy hitting on internal dissent? I AM internal dissent, if that was directed at me.
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### Author:  [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)
#### Post date: [October 13, 2003, 2:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-war-in-iraq-is-going-well-discuss/206646/72 "2003-10-13T14:05:22Z")
**Beagle** , the link is to the Olympia, Washington daily newspaper, The Olympian. Don’t worry, it’s safe to click - and as presumably factual as any other daily paper.
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### Author:  [@Gorsnak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gorsnak)
#### Post date: [October 13, 2003, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-war-in-iraq-is-going-well-discuss/206646/73 "2003-10-13T15:27:15Z")
> [@](#):
>
> _Originally posted by Sam Stone_
> annual economic growth in 2003-2004 could be well above 10% with inflation kept in reasonable check…
>
> The ADO estimates 2002 gross domestic product (GDP) at US$4.4 billion, with annual per capita GDP at $170.
Okay, so the per capita GDP in Afghanistan _might_ go all the way up to a staggering $187 next year, and you think this is _good_ news?!? On what planet is this economic situation not massive incentive to plant poppies? Sheesh. Just because 10% growth would be a serious boom in the industrialized west doesn’t mean that 10% growth in a place with virtually no economic activity to begin with is anything to trumpet. Toss out all the investment statistics you like, the fact, as your own cite demonstrates, is that the average Afghan still has sweet bupkiss. I’m sure he’ll be happy about the existence of a luxury hotel in Kabul, though. That’ll go a long ways to making his life better.
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### Author:  [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)
#### Post date: [October 13, 2003, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-war-in-iraq-is-going-well-discuss/206646/74 "2003-10-13T16:10:57Z")
Average wordl wide per capita GDP is [$7,900](http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/xx.html#Econ).
$187 is 2.4% of $7,900.
@ 10% growth per year, how many years before Afghanistan reaches 50% of the world average? How many years until it reaches 75% world average? How long until 100%?
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### Author:  [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)
#### Post date: [October 13, 2003, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-war-in-iraq-is-going-well-discuss/206646/75 "2003-10-13T19:13:18Z")
There is no doubt that Afghanistan is a very poor place. Even the 3rd world per capita annual income is about $800, so Afghanistan really sucks.
The point is that it is getting better, not worse. We can all wish that it was MUCH better, but this is a country that not long ago sparked the biggest refugee crisis in the world because conditions were so bad, and there was much talk of mass starvation the year of the war. Which didn’t happen.
Afghanistan is coming up from essentially zero. The people were starving. The Taliban was expropriating most of the food aid and other resources and leaving the people with nothing. There was no functioning economy to speak of.
Since then, the economy has increased by 28%, and is forecast to grow at 10% next year and the year after. Growth is going to be slow for a while no matter how much money you pump in - there’s not much infrastructure, the warlord problem makes it hard to build up national commerce, the population is uneducated, etc.
But I’m not sure what you expect. Rather than just pick at what I’m saying, how about someone offer some alternatives? Tell me where the Bush administration went wrong in Afghanistan. Tell me what you think their GDP SHOULD be at this point, and what steps you would have taken to achieve that. It’s really easy to simply knock down any accomplishment as not being sufficient - it’s another to offer substantive criticisms of policy and alternatives.
So let’s hear it - what’s you Afghanistan policy, and how is it better than what has happened to date?
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### Author:  [@Rashak\_Mani](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rashak_Mani)
#### Post date: [October 13, 2003, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-war-in-iraq-is-going-well-discuss/206646/76 "2003-10-13T19:25:23Z")
Maybe that Afghanistan should be getting tens of billions of US help rather than Iraq ? After all Afghanistan was the terrorist hotbed.
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I think his criticism of your 10% figure standing alone means very little... we can throw numbers and not show what is happening in Afghanistan. Spinning things doesnt change anything.
```
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### Author:  [@pantom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pantom)
#### Post date: [October 13, 2003, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-war-in-iraq-is-going-well-discuss/206646/77 "2003-10-13T20:18:40Z")
In the case of Afghanistan, the problem is something I alluded to in another context: it’s a supply region. The rest of the world only cares that Afghanistan exists, from an economic point of view, because it supplies raw opium from which all of the drugs in the opiate family can be produced.
Given that, the entire economy revolves around this, and as is typical in such a place, a small elite lords it over a large, impoverished mass. To solve the problem you first have to break the back of the opium economy. The Taliban saw this, and banned the growing of opium poppies. We have to offer a carrot along with that stick, to diversify the economy and to break the power of the warlords.
Given that, the below is very bad news:
> [@](#):
>
> WASHINGTON - The United States has no ready answer to calls for action to reverse the upward trend in opium production in Afghanistan, Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld said Thursday.
> Rumsfeld was responding to a question from his audience at a “town hall” session with Pentagon civilian and military employees. The questioner said he had read that opium production is higher now than when American forces entered Afghanistan in October last year.
> Rumsfeld confirmed the rise.
> “You ask what we’re going to do and the answer is, I don’t really know,” the defense chief said.
From [http://www.duluthsuperior.com/mld/duluthsuperior/news/6532118.htm](http://www.duluthsuperior.com/mld/duluthsuperior/news/6532118.htm)
But this is problem number one for Afghanistan. Diversify the economy away from opium, and you break the economic support for the warlords, and give the country a chance to develop a true economy. Without solving this problem, it’s all just band-aids.
As to my Pit question, why would you believe these guys and their press releases? As the above shows, they’re unwilling to do the hard things to solve the actual problems that they’re confronted with.
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### Author:  [@pantom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pantom)
#### Post date: [October 13, 2003, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-war-in-iraq-is-going-well-discuss/206646/78 "2003-10-13T20:20:41Z")
In case that wasn’t clear, the question was directed at **Sam Stone**.
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### Author:  [@Roland\_Saul](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Roland_Saul)
#### Post date: [October 14, 2003, 2:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-war-in-iraq-is-going-well-discuss/206646/79 "2003-10-14T02:47:27Z")
Wow!! Fantastic!! In another 30 years, the Afghans will be almost as well off as they were before we started screwing with them… AND we get good cheap smack again!! Bonus!!
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### Author:  [@Beagle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beagle)
#### Post date: [October 14, 2003, 1:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-war-in-iraq-is-going-well-discuss/206646/80 "2003-10-14T13:10:34Z")
The predictions made about the future of Afghanistan in 2001 have been shot out of the water by the successful (for Afghanistan) US military intervention. The predictions involved millions starving and millions more being displaced or killed by the civil war. Sure, it _still sucks_ to live in Afghanistan.
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