# The War of Northern Aggression **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [April 14, 2007, 2:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-war-of-northern-aggression/400046 "2007-04-14T02:44:08Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2007, 11:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-war-of-northern-aggression/400046/61 "2007-04-14T23:57:30Z")
[QUOTE=Dangerosa] I have issues with them for the same reason, my daughter qualifies for the DAR - my son (an adoptee) does not. Which happens to be the stupidest thing I’ve ever heard of because God only knows how many people have birth certificates and baptismal records with their father’s name on them - but their mother was two timing. This isn’t something that (until recently) was provable for most people. [/QUOTE] Curious-do they allow African Americans who are descendents of slaves, who were fathered by white plantation owners and the like? ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2007, 12:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-war-of-northern-aggression/400046/62 "2007-04-15T00:18:21Z")
[QUOTE=Airman Doors, USAF] I think that the whole Civil War industry is absurd. Let it go, people. [/QUOTE] Yeah, and those Englishmen should stop making such a big deal about that stupid tower of theirs and find something better to do. Seriously, there’s nothing wrong with people being interested in history or going to sites and museums. Marc ---
**Author:** ![John\_Carter\_of\_Mars](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/2bfe46/32.png) [@John\_Carter\_of\_Mars](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Carter_of_Mars)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2007, 12:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-war-of-northern-aggression/400046/63 "2007-04-15T00:53:28Z")
[QUOTE=vibrotronica] Double or nothing this year! (I totally forgot about that! How much did we bet?) [/QUOTE] We bet one year’s subscription to The Dope. If you wanna’ go double or nothing, it’ll have to wait until September of '08. It’ll be in Knoxville. Until then, War Eagle! ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2007, 1:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-war-of-northern-aggression/400046/64 "2007-04-15T01:00:28Z")
[QUOTE=An Arky] … back then, that belief was not all that common yet; it was still formulating and catching on. … [/QUOTE] > [@](#): > > [**Britain**](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abolitionism#Britain) > > **The slave trade within England was made illegal in 1102** , and **the last form of enforced servitude (villeinage) had disappeared in Britain by the beginning of the seventeenth century.** However, by the eighteenth century, black slaves began to be brought into London and Edinburgh as personal servants. They were not bought or sold, and their legal status was unclear until 1772, when the case of a runaway slave named James Somerset forced a legal decision. The owner, Charles Steuart, had attempted to abduct him and send him to Jamaica to work on the sugar plantations. While in London, Somerset had been baptised and his godparents issued a writ of habeas corpus. As a result Lord Mansfield, Chief Justice of the Court of King’s Bench, had to judge whether the abduction was legal or not under English Common Law as there was no legislation for slavery in England. In his judgement of **22 June 1772** he declared: “Whatever inconveniences, therefore, may follow from a decision, I cannot say this case is allowed or approved by the law of England; and therefore the black must be discharged.” **It was thus declared that the condition of slavery did not exist under English law. This judgement emancipated the 10 to 14 thousand slaves in England and also laid down that slavery contracted in other jurisdictions (such as the American colonies) could not be enforced in England.** … [RIGHT] **Bold** =CMC[/RIGHT]but how many Americans in the 1800’s knew of this strange foreign nation called England? [QUOTE=An Arky] … back then, that belief was not all that common yet; it was still formulating and catching on. … [/QUOTE] Yeah, if you ignore Europe, North America, South America, and the Caribbean, > [@](#): > > [**National abolition dates**](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abolitionism#National_abolition_dates) > Slavery was abolished in these [nations](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavery#Timeline_of_the_abolition_of_slavery) in these years:[ul] > [li] **Sweden** , including **Finland** : **1335** , but not until **1847** in the colony of **St Barthélemy** [/li][li] **Japan** : **1588** , Toyotomi Hideyoshi ordered all slave trading to be abolished. His successor Tokugawa Ieyasu also continued abolishment of slavery …[/li][li] **Portugal** : **1761** -1869, abolished in European Portugal and Atlantic Isles in 1761 by Prime-Minister Marquis of Pombal. Abolished in the **African colonies of the Portuguese Empire** in **1869** [/li][li] **England** and **Wales** : **1772** , as a result of Somersett’s case; although the legal effect of this was much more limited …[/li][li] **Scotland** : **1776** , as a result of Wedderburne’s case[/li][li] **Vermont** : **1777** , Commonwealth of Vermont, an independent republic created after the American Revolution, on July 8, 1777[/li][li] **Haiti** : **1791** , revolt among nearly half a million slaves[/li][li] **Canada** , Upper: **1793** , abolished slavery under Sir John Graves Simcoe, but did not free all the existing slaves until 1810[/li][li] **France** (first time): **1794** -1802, including all colonies (although abolition was never carried out in some colonies under British occupation)[/li][li] **Canada** , Lower: **1803** , William Osgoode, then Chief Justice of Lower Canada, ruled that slavery was not compatible with British law[/li][li] **Chile** : 1811, partially, and in **1823** for all who remained as slave and “whoever slave setting a foot on Chilean soil”[/li][li] **Argentina** : **1813** [/li][li]Gran Colombia ( **Ecuador** , Colombia, **Panama** , and Venezuela): **1821** , through a gradual emancipation plan ( **Colombia** in **1853** , **Venezuela** in **1854** )[/li][li] **Federal Republic of Central America** , present (Guatemala, El Salvador, Honduras, Nicaragua and Costa Rica): **1824** [/li][li] **Mexico** : **1829** [/li][li] **British Empire** : **1833** , including **all colonies** (with effect from 1 August **1834** ; in **East Indies** from 1 August **1838** )[/li][li] **Mauritius** : 1 February **1835** , under the British government. …[/li][li] **Trinidad & Tobago** , **Jamaica** , **Barbados** , **Leeward Islands** , **Windward Islands** : **1838** , abolished the last vestiges of slavery two years ahead of schedule[/li][li] **Denmark** : **1848** , including **all colonies** [/li][li] **France** (second time): **1848** , including **all colonies** [/ul][/li][/quote] > [RIGHT] **Bold** =CMC[/RIGHT]but how many Americans in the 1800’s knew of all these strange foreign nations? > [QUOTE=An Arky] > … Hard for us to conceive of the notion, but for them it was still debatable. Something tells me the only people who really thought slavery was still debatable, were the folks who wanted to own slaves. CMC fnord! ---
**Author:** ![Weirddave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/919ad9/32.png) [@Weirddave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weirddave)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2007, 2:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-war-of-northern-aggression/400046/65 "2007-04-15T02:18:41Z")
Seems to me that you’re making Arky’s point for him, as you provide an excellent time line detailing the formation and spread of the belief that slavery was wrong and should be abolished; I note also that with the exception of Japan (which is a non-sequitor to this discussion), all of the examples happened within a hundred years of the Civil War. It’s a textbook example of an idea “formulating and catching on” over the course of a century. ---
**Author:** ![Baldwin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/baldwin/32/7264_2.png) [@Baldwin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baldwin)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2007, 3:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-war-of-northern-aggression/400046/66 "2007-04-15T03:08:29Z")
When it comes to ardent Confederate apologists, I’ve learned not to argue with them. It’s like trying to argue a fanatic out of his religion; they’re immune to logic and facts. I learned this after dating a Southern Belle who was inordinately proud of her Southron heritage and was a Civil War reenactor. (Have you ever been under one of those hoop skirts? It’s like a little circus tent.) Cost me some incredible sex. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2007, 3:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-war-of-northern-aggression/400046/67 "2007-04-15T03:26:45Z")
[QUOTE=BrainGlutton] George Carlin once said of Civil War re-enactors, “Let 'em use live ammunition and clean up the gene pool!” 😃 [/QUOTE] Hey, I was a Union reenactor for five years. And we were _'way_ smarter and less inbred than those Johnny Rebs, lemme tell ya… ---
**Author:** ![Sampiro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sampiro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampiro)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2007, 5:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-war-of-northern-aggression/400046/68 "2007-04-15T05:38:46Z")
I always wanted to be a Civil War reenactor but I just couldn’t stand the thoughts of the heat or all the things that could go wrong on one of those battlefield meetings, so I paid an Irish guy $300 to go reenact it in my place. ---
**Author:** ![Terrifel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c68b51/32.png) [@Terrifel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terrifel)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2007, 5:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-war-of-northern-aggression/400046/69 "2007-04-15T05:47:31Z")
[QUOTE=Weirddave] Seems to me that you’re making Arky’s point for him, as you provide an excellent time line detailing the formation and spread of the belief that slavery was wrong and should be abolished; I note also that with the exception of Japan (which is a non-sequitor to this discussion), all of the examples happened within a hundred years of the Civil War. It’s a textbook example of an idea “formulating and catching on” over the course of a century. [/QUOTE] **An Arky’s** point was that the idea of slavery being wrong was “not all that common” in 1857. **Crowmanyclouds** ’ time line demonstrates that dozens of nations around the globe, including America’s own neighbors Canada and Mexico, already considered slavery to be wrong. By 1857, England, Scotland, Wales, France, Sweden, Finland, Japan, Portugal, Haiti, Chile, Argentina, Canada, Mexico, Equador, Colombia, Panama, Venezuela, El Salvador, Guatemala, Honduras, Nicaragua, Costa Rica, Peru, Mauritius, Denmark, Russia, Wallachia, Moldavia, and the Northern U.S. all considered the abolitionist cause sufficiently obvious to warrant enacting into law. How does that possibly represent a “not all that common idea?” ---
**Author:** ![Weirddave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/919ad9/32.png) [@Weirddave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weirddave)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2007, 6:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-war-of-northern-aggression/400046/70 "2007-04-15T06:29:46Z")
Because you fail to take into consideration just how non-connected everything was back then. We’re used to the instant communication of the later half of the twentieth century and the twenty first. Anytime someone farts in Uganda, we can access dozens of reports detailing how that fart sounded, what it smelled like, why it happened and when we can expect a follow up fart, and everyone, everywhere has that knowledge and reacts to it. It wasn’t like that back then, and as always, economic reality drives everything. In parts of the world where slavery did not give a great economic advantage to slave owners, it was easy to outlaw it, nobody, or at least not many people, lost money by doing so, and it’s easy to do the right thing when it’s not costing you anything. In parts of the world where slaves were particularly valuable and were the means by which people got rich, it wasn’t so easy. Look at how many of the countries on the list outlawed slavery at home (but not in their colonies until some later date). The idea that slavery was bad certainly was around, and where it was economically feasible to outlaw it without hitting the pocketbook very hard it happened fairly quickly. The southern states in the US were in a unique position that made slavery an economically lucrative practice, and so they resisted the hardest. Still, even had the war not happened, I would expect that slaves would have been manumitted on a state by state basis over the next twenty years or so as advances in technology made the institution cost prohibitive. From Americans 150 or more years past that time, the idea that slavery itself is simply repugnant seems like more than enough of a reason to abolish the practice. Well, we are where we are now as a result of the civil war and all that followed, through the civil rights struggles of the 50s and 60s and beyond. What we assume is as plain as the nose on our face wasn’t back then. Yes, the idea that slavery is evil and should be abolished because of that existed back then, but it wasn’t a majority view; lots of people thought so, sure, but just about as many didn’t, and a great number of people in the middle didn’t care one way or another, to one degree or another. That’s simply the way it was back then. Looking back from out perspective as twenty first century Americans it seems bizarre and abhorrent that most people didn’t just condemn slavery because of what it was, but that’s the way things were back then. Societies grow and evolve just as people do, it takes time for beliefs and attitudes to change. ---
**Author:** ![Don\_t\_fight\_the\_hypothetical](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/59ef9b/32.png) [@Don\_t\_fight\_the\_hypothetical](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Don_t_fight_the_hypothetical)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2007, 8:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-war-of-northern-aggression/400046/71 "2007-04-15T08:29:40Z")
[QUOTE=David Simmons] I agree, but after all, weren’t the Founding Fathers traitors to the British government? [/QUOTE] Yes and that was my point. We wouldn’t be the same “we” if the south had won. Paris Nov. 13. 1787 > [@Thomas Jefferson](#): > > _"Let them take arms. The remedy is to set them right as to facts, pardon & pacify them. What signify a few lives lost in a century or two? The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots & tyrants. it is it’s natural manure._ History is written by the winners. FTR, I abhor the cause that the southern states were fighting for, despite **Marley23** ’s mangled intention. ---
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2007, 3:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-war-of-northern-aggression/400046/72 "2007-04-15T15:01:45Z")
[QUOTE=Elendil’s Heir] Nitpick: Alexander Stephens was the Confederate VP. Stephen Douglas was a Democratic candidate for President from Illinois in 1860 and a friend of Lincoln; Douglas strongly backed the Union war effort once fighting began. [/QUOTE] :smack: Worst part was that I did actually get it correct in other posts. ---
**Author:** ![Terrifel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c68b51/32.png) [@Terrifel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terrifel)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2007, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-war-of-northern-aggression/400046/73 "2007-04-15T15:08:16Z")
[QUOTE=Weirddave] Because you fail to take into consideration just how non-connected everything was back then. We’re used to the instant communication of the later half of the twentieth century and the twenty first. [/quote] What, the telegraph wasn’t fast enough? Even Moldavia was on board with the idea by then! When even Dracula’s neighborhood agrees that slavery is bad, it’s a bit too late to claim that the idea is outrageously progressive. Instant communication doesn’t enter into it. > [@](#): > > The idea that slavery was bad certainly was around, and where it was economically feasible to outlaw it without hitting the pocketbook very hard it happened fairly quickly. The southern states in the US were in a unique position that made slavery an economically lucrative practice, and so they resisted the hardest. I don’t think anybody is arguing that the South held on to slavery solely because they enjoyed it; certainly the driving reason was economical. But they didn’t cling to slavery because abolition was a new and audacious idea; they hung onto the institution long after all their neighbors had abandoned it precisely because they uniquely stood to gain from it. > [@](#): > > Looking back from out perspective as twenty first century Americans it seems bizarre and abhorrent that most people didn’t just condemn slavery because of what it was, but that’s the way things were back then. Societies grow and evolve just as people do, it takes time for beliefs and attitudes to change. This is true, but to shrug and say ‘that’s the way things were back then’ seems to grossly minimalize the fact that many, many nations and people did condemn slavery because of what it was, even at that time… perhaps not ‘most’ people, but a significant fraction of the world’s population. Word on the street is that Mauritania still practices slavery today; should the rest of the world refrain from judgement, because their society just hasn’t evolved far enough yet? ---
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2007, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-war-of-northern-aggression/400046/74 "2007-04-15T16:46:51Z")
You’re overlooking the fact that most people in Europe had no problem with slavery per se. They just didn’t want _white_ slavery. Black slavery was perfectly alright too; they just wanted it kept nicely far and distant where they didn’t have to look at it. Slavery was banned not because of any great moral courage, but because no-one had a reason to defend it. Even in England, it was banned only after considerable debate - and was left for some time untouched in their colonies. France, too. This is not to be confused with saying that slavery was good or should not have been dismantled. But the idea that slavery was actually a morally bad thing in and of itself was relatively new. It had lasted about two generation in America before the Civil War, and was gaining steam. In the South, certain actions by the pro-slave side made speaking against slavery a very dangerous thing to do, but there was a considerable antislave sentiment. However, many Southerners felt they could not morally fight against or abandon their home states, either - poor whites especially felt torn. America was unique in the amount of blood we were willing to shed over the issue. And this convinced the Latin American nations to end the practice. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2007, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-war-of-northern-aggression/400046/75 "2007-04-15T17:56:27Z")
[QUOTE=smiling bandit] America was unique in the amount of blood we were willing to shed over the issue. And this convinced the Latin American nations to end the practice. [/QUOTE] Except, as was mentioned, the Latin American nations, with the exception of Brazil, abolished slavery before we did. ---
**Author:** ![Zebra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/c0e974/32.png) [@Zebra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zebra)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2007, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-war-of-northern-aggression/400046/76 "2007-04-15T18:25:47Z")
[QUOTE=Monty] If you were taught the reason the southern states went to war was to preserve state’s rights, you were taught wrong. If you were taught that those fought for the Confederacy weren’t traitors, you were taught wrong. I’m with the OP. Let’s put the kibosh on this revisionist history of a bunch of traitors and slavers. [/QUOTE] And don’t forget losers. They were slavers, traitors, and losers. ---
**Author:** ![Zebra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/c0e974/32.png) [@Zebra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zebra)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2007, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-war-of-northern-aggression/400046/77 "2007-04-15T18:27:59Z")
[QUOTE=Sampiro] I always wanted to be a Civil War reenactor but I just couldn’t stand the thoughts of the heat or all the things that could go wrong on one of those battlefield meetings, so I paid an Irish guy $300 to go reenact it in my place. [/QUOTE] BRILLANT! ---
**Author:** ![Baker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/bb73d2/32.png) [@Baker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baker)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2007, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-war-of-northern-aggression/400046/78 "2007-04-15T18:28:57Z")
When mentioning hanging of important Confederate figures, it’s interesting to note that the only person hung, for any reason, after the Civil War, was the commandant of the Andersonville prison camp. [http://www.law.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/Wirz/Wirz.htm](http://www.law.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/Wirz/Wirz.htm) The story of that camp is a little more connected for me because my grandmother, still with us at the age of 102, can remember, and tell us about her grandfather, who was incarcerated in that camp. ---
**Author:** ![Terrifel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c68b51/32.png) [@Terrifel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terrifel)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2007, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-war-of-northern-aggression/400046/79 "2007-04-15T19:59:20Z")
[QUOTE=smiling bandit] You’re overlooking the fact that most people in Europe had no problem with slavery per se. They just didn’t want _white_ slavery. Black slavery was perfectly alright too; they just wanted it kept nicely far and distant where they didn’t have to look at it. Slavery was banned not because of any great moral courage, but because no-one had a reason to defend it. Even in England, it was banned only after considerable debate - and was left for some time untouched in their colonies. France, too. [/quote] Wait… Europe had no problem with slavery, even though most of Europe had already outlawed slavery? No one had a reason to defend it… yet it was banned only after considerable debate? You’re trying to burn out my logic circuit, aren’t you? So why did they bother to ban slavery if everyone was cool with it? And if no one was defending it, then why was it debated? Can someone get Dracula in here to explain how all this makes sense? > [@](#): > > This is not to be confused with saying that slavery was good or should not have been dismantled. But the idea that slavery was actually a morally bad thing in and of itself was relatively new. It had lasted about two generation in America before the Civil War, and was gaining steam. Vermont outlawed slavery before they were even a state. The president of the first abolitionist society in America was Ben Franklin. This ‘relatively new’ idea had been circulating since before the United States was founded, and was promoted by some of its most distinguished citizens. It’s been less than two generations since the Jim Crow laws were overturned, so their repeal is a much more ‘relatively new’ idea than abolitionism was in 1861. Yet I sincerely hope that few Americans still consider them morally debatable. > [@](#): > > America was unique in the amount of blood we were willing to shed over the issue. Well, yeah… but I think that’s because in most other countries, huge numbers of people weren’t willing to kill to preserve slavery. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Miskatonic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mr.miskatonic/32/310_2.png) [@Mr.Miskatonic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Miskatonic)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2007, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-war-of-northern-aggression/400046/80 "2007-04-15T20:19:40Z")
[QUOTE=Elendil’s Heir] Hey, I was a Union reenactor for five years. And we were _'way_ smarter and less inbred than those Johnny Rebs, lemme tell ya… [/QUOTE] Don’t reenact any war that is still being fought. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-war-of-northern-aggression/400046.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-war-of-northern-aggression/400046.md?page=5)