# The War of Northern Aggression **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [April 14, 2007, 2:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-war-of-northern-aggression/400046 "2007-04-14T02:44:08Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![vibrotronica](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/a9a28c/32.png) [@vibrotronica](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vibrotronica)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2007, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-war-of-northern-aggression/400046/121 "2007-04-16T16:26:22Z")
I don’t think Lee should have been hung after the war. The person to whom the OP was directed went on an on about what a tragedy it was that Arlington was seized and made into a graveyard. I think Lee got off easy, and I also think that if you’re trying to heal a nation after a period of civil war, the winning side must show mercy to the losers. And I think that had Lincoln lived Reconstruction would have been much easier on the South. ---
**Author:** ![Algher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Algher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Algher)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2007, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-war-of-northern-aggression/400046/122 "2007-04-16T17:03:52Z")
[QUOTE=CalMeacham] I have to bring up Loewen’s book **Lies my Teacher Told Me** (And, to some extent, his sequel, **Lies Across America** ), controversial as they are. He makes the case that the terminology is from well after the post-war period, and represents an attempt to redefine the conflict after the fact. He quotes documents from the period that make it abundantly clear that the perpetuation of slavery was the stated root cause of the war, and that the principle of States Rights was , far from the issue, was argued by the rebelling states themselves to be the opposite of their stance. I haven’t studied this period in any detail, and for all I know Loewen himself might have cherry-picked his quotes, but I doubt it. They look pretty damning. [/QUOTE] Loewen should be read alongside other biased bits. He certainly does cherry pick, but in his defense everyone cherry picks to suit their agenda. The obvious issue regarding slavery is how many Southern volunteers fought who did not own slaves. There must have been a bit more than just slavery getting them going. As for whether or not the South had traitors - is it legal to secede? This question has never been settled (to my knowledge). Prior to the Civil War people considered themselves citizens of their home state first, nation second. Once that state voted for secession, it was a new nation. The Southern officers resigned - that is different from turning traitor. They knew that they could not serve both, and honorably resigned from one to join the other. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2007, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-war-of-northern-aggression/400046/123 "2007-04-16T17:10:52Z")
> [@](#): > > By the way, at the outset of hostilities, Lincoln offered command of the Federal Army to Lee, who had been first in his class at West Point. Lee, of course, turned him down, and was eventually defeated by Grant, who had been last in the same class at West Point. Lee (born 1807) was in the class of 1829 and graduated second not first in his class. Grant (born 1822) was in the class of 1843 and graduated twenty-first in a class of thirty-nine. ---
**Author:** ![Sampiro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sampiro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampiro)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2007, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-war-of-northern-aggression/400046/124 "2007-04-16T17:52:08Z")
[QUOTE=chowder] What is it with you Americans and your civil war? You’re always rattling on about it for some reasons best known you yourselves. [/QUOTE] Hey, both North and South can agree on one thang: we sho nuff can kick us some snooty English arse. Now don’t make us come over there and… uh… get y’all to come back over here so we can kick it again! (And you still owe us a new capitol and White House.) ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2007, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-war-of-northern-aggression/400046/125 "2007-04-16T17:53:33Z")
[QUOTE=Little Nemo] Lee (born 1807) was in the class of 1829 and graduated second not first in his class. Grant (born 1822) was in the class of 1843 and graduated twenty-first in a class of thirty-nine. [/QUOTE] Just for completeness, the following Civil War Generals graduated first in their class: Richard Delafield ('18), USA George Morell ('35), USA Henry Benham ('37), USA Isaac Stevens ('39), USA Paul Hebert ('40), CSA Zealous Tower ('41), USA Henry Eustis ('42), USA William Franklin ('43), USA William Whiting ('45), CSA Quincy Gillmore ('49), USA George Andrews ('51), USA James McPherson ('53), USA George Washington Custis Lee ('54), CSA Ranald Mackenzie ('62), USA ---
**Author:** ![chowder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/977dab/32.png) [@chowder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chowder)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2007, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-war-of-northern-aggression/400046/126 "2007-04-16T18:17:16Z")
[QUOTE=Sampiro] Hey, both North and South can agree on one thang: we sho nuff can kick us some snooty English arse. Now don’t make us come over there and… uh… get y’all to come back over here so we can kick it again! (And you still owe us a new capitol and White House.) [/QUOTE] Heh, you said arse 😛 ---
**Author:** ![Sampiro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sampiro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampiro)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2007, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-war-of-northern-aggression/400046/127 "2007-04-16T18:53:57Z")
[QUOTE=chowder] Heh, you said arse 😛 [/QUOTE] Yeah yeah yeah, we invented it and the English stole it from us. AND I WANT MY NEW CAPITOL NOW TO REPLACE THE ONE Y’ALL BURNED!!! And this time I want it in Egyptian style and somewhere closer to Alabama. With a White House that’s made of glass and has windmills and other cool stuff next to it. And a member of the royal family to serve as our official hostage. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2007, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-war-of-northern-aggression/400046/128 "2007-04-16T19:19:57Z")
[QUOTE=Algher] …As for whether or not the South had traitors - is it legal to secede? This question has never been settled (to my knowledge). Prior to the Civil War people considered themselves citizens of their home state first, nation second. Once that state voted for secession, it was a new nation… [/QUOTE] If the verdict of the battlefield is insufficient, consider what the Supreme Court said: [Texas v. White - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Texas_v._White) Many Southerners did _not_ consider themselves citizens of their state first, and of the U.S. second. Consider Sen. (later Gov., VP and POTUS) Andrew Johnson and Adm. David Farragut, both of Tennessee; Gen. George H. Thomas of Virginia, and Gov. Sam Houston of Texas, to name only a few. And some years earlier, George Washington of Virginia, as explained in the article linked upthread. ---
**Author:** ![Sampiro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sampiro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampiro)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2007, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-war-of-northern-aggression/400046/129 "2007-04-16T19:29:43Z")
[QUOTE=Elendil’s Heir] Many Southerners did _not_ consider themselves citizens of their state first, and of the U.S. second. Consider Sen. (later Gov., VP and POTUS) Andrew Johnson and Adm. David Farragut, both of Tennessee; Gen. George H. Thomas of Virginia, and Gov. Sam Houston of Texas, to name only a few. [/QUOTE] Also worth noting that every Southern state with the exception of South Carolina fielded at least one Union regiment and that the western third of Virginia became West Virginia rather than serve the Confederacy. (My g-g-grandfather was a cavalry private in the 51st Alabama whose last military action {April 1865} was against the Alabama 1st Union Regiment; I’ve wondered if their shared home state made the men hate each other more or less than they would men from the other part of the country, or if that late in the war [after Appomattox Cths. even] they even much gave a damn and just kind of phoned in their shots {it wasn’t a bloody skirmish but it did result in the capture of the 1st Union until they were released upon Johnston’s surrender later that week}). ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2007, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-war-of-northern-aggression/400046/130 "2007-04-16T19:38:49Z")
[QUOTE=Sampiro] I’ve wondered if their shared home state made the men hate each other more or less than they would men from the other part of the country. . . [/QUOTE] That was part of the reason for the Ft. Pillow massacre. Forrest’s mostly Tennessee division was facing not only black Union troops, but also the Union 14th Tennesee cavalry. ---
**Author:** ![Sampiro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sampiro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampiro)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2007, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-war-of-northern-aggression/400046/131 "2007-04-16T19:42:20Z")
[QUOTE=Captain Amazing] That was part of the reason for the Ft. Pillow massacre. Forrest’s mostly Tennessee division was facing not only black Union troops, but also the Union 14th Tennesee cavalry. [/QUOTE] Now _that’s_ still a major hot potato among those down here educated enough about the war to know about it. Personally I believe the massacre happened- I mean, the alternative is that all those troops just happened to die in battle which isn’t very likely at all- but I’ve heard academics go off about it, insisting there was no massacre. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2007, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-war-of-northern-aggression/400046/132 "2007-04-16T19:43:52Z")
[QUOTE=chowder] What is it with you Americans and your civil war? You’re always rattling on about it for some reasons best known you yourselves. [/QUOTE] Was your username chosen with [this fine old colloquialism](http://www.yourdictionary.com/ahd/c/c0330350.html) in mind? Suits ya. ---
**Author:** ![Terrifel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c68b51/32.png) [@Terrifel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terrifel)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2007, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-war-of-northern-aggression/400046/133 "2007-04-16T19:58:46Z")
[QUOTE=Captain Amazing] Just for completeness, the following Civil War Generals graduated first in their class: Richard Delafield ('18), USA George Morell ('35), USA Henry Benham ('37), USA Isaac Stevens ('39), USA Paul Hebert ('40), CSA Zealous Tower ('41), USA Henry Eustis ('42), USA William Franklin ('43), USA William Whiting ('45), CSA Quincy Gillmore ('49), USA George Andrews ('51), USA James McPherson ('53), USA George Washington Custis Lee ('54), CSA Ranald Mackenzie ('62), USA [/QUOTE] I feel kind of sorry for Zealous Tower. You just know that, whatever his achievements in life, it wasn’t ever going to be good enough. No matter what he managed to accomplish, other people would still be saying: “Well… that’s _okay,_ I guess… I suppose I was just expecting something a little more from a guy named ‘Zealous Tower.’” The only way he could possibly have lived up to the name would have been to tear his shirt off, fight his way through Confederate lines single-handedly, and stab Jeff Davis to death with his rock-hard nipples. On the other hand, when I get around to writing my epic Civil War novel, I’ll definitely have to include a part for him.\* \* “Wait-- look there! Silhouetted against the horizon… Thank God! It’s **Zealous Tower**!”\* \*Assuming the historical romance novels haven’t beaten me to the punch already. I mean, come on… “Zealous Tower?” ---
**Author:** ![Taber](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ac91a4/32.png) [@Taber](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Taber)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2007, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-war-of-northern-aggression/400046/134 "2007-04-16T20:06:15Z")
[QUOTE=Largo62] Sad to say, not all of that armament went to the British or the French. The Winchester Repeating Arms Company made a good bit of money selling rifles to the Turks before America’s entry into the war made it illegal. Turkey was part of the Central Powers, and aligned with Germany. [/QUOTE] see! Wilson was right. We were neutral, we supplied both sides. ---
**Author:** ![Algher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Algher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Algher)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2007, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-war-of-northern-aggression/400046/135 "2007-04-16T20:34:28Z")
[QUOTE=Elendil’s Heir] If the verdict of the battlefield is insufficient, consider what the Supreme Court said: [Texas v. White - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Texas_v._White) Many Southerners did _not_ consider themselves citizens of their state first, and of the U.S. second. Consider Sen. (later Gov., VP and POTUS) Andrew Johnson and Adm. David Farragut, both of Tennessee; Gen. George H. Thomas of Virginia, and Gov. Sam Houston of Texas, to name only a few. And some years earlier, George Washington of Virginia, as explained in the article linked upthread. [/QUOTE] MANY thanks for the link! So the Supremes say that you can not leave the Union, period? Seems dicey to me, personally. You should be allowed to leave. You are allowed to give up your citizenship, so why can’t everyone in a state give up theirs and take the state with them? OK - that should be another thread. Thanks for the edjumacashun. ---
**Author:** ![Zebra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/c0e974/32.png) [@Zebra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zebra)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2007, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-war-of-northern-aggression/400046/136 "2007-04-16T21:53:56Z")
[QUOTE=Terrifel] \*Assuming the historical romance novels haven’t beaten me to the punch already. I mean, come on… “Zealous Tower?” [/QUOTE] Do I have to say it? I guess so, (sigh) BAND NAME! ZEALOUS TOWER is the greatest speed/goth metal band ever! ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2007, 10:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-war-of-northern-aggression/400046/137 "2007-04-16T22:52:03Z")
Not to be over-Zealous, but [this link](http://www.generalsandbrevets.com/nt/nt1.htm) contains a photo of the revered General (bottom row). Union generals had their deficiencies, but on the whole they sported (sprouted?) some pretty wild facial hair. Eating ice cream cones must have been messy, though. :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![abel29a](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ebca7d/32.png) [@abel29a](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/abel29a)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2007, 10:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-war-of-northern-aggression/400046/138 "2007-04-16T22:56:04Z")
So, as a European with only a basic understanding of the US Constitution, States vs Federal Government and the Civil War - why would the Southern States succesion be viewed as treason? Isnt each US state basically an automonous unit that voluntarily belong to the Federation? Or is it so that once a piece of land becomes a US State the citizens living there can never withdraw from the Union? If the latter, it seems a bit contradictory to the Spirit of the whole “Land of the Free” thing. I’ve read the thread so far, but it seems to be a lot of back and forth and I’m still confused on who where in the wrong and why in the case of the Civil War. (Leaving the moral debate about Slavery out of it, which clearly put the South in the wrong) ---
**Author:** ![Pleonast](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pleonast/32/1183_2.png) [@Pleonast](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pleonast)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2007, 11:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-war-of-northern-aggression/400046/139 "2007-04-16T23:00:20Z")
States have only limited sovereignty. The Constitution doesn’t describe how a state can leave the union. Best guess, it would take an Act of Congress and the approval by the state’s legislature, similar to how a state is admitted. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2007, 11:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-war-of-northern-aggression/400046/140 "2007-04-16T23:00:57Z")
Dang, but that Civil War generals’ website has some fine pictures of sportin’ dudes. Check out Gen. Joseph Gilbert (“I have but one facial expression to give for my country”) Totten. 😃 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-war-of-northern-aggression/400046.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-war-of-northern-aggression/400046.md?page=8)