# The War on Guns **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 17, 2013, 10:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-war-on-guns/669101 "2013-09-17T22:13:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![Kable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed655f/32.png) [@Kable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kable)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2013, 5:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-war-on-guns/669101/181 "2013-09-21T05:46:52Z")
> [@Bob\_Blaylock](#): > > That’s a very odd definition of “freedom”—not being allowed to do something, but thinking one doesn’t need to do so anyway. Yeah, it’s like the fox being free not to eat them “sour” grapes. ---
**Author:** ![Sitnam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Sitnam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sitnam)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2013, 6:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-war-on-guns/669101/182 "2013-09-21T06:44:47Z")
Please tell me, what percentage of gun owners are members of the NRA? What percentage would be required for them to speak reasonably as if they had a mandate from gun owners? ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2013, 2:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-war-on-guns/669101/183 "2013-09-21T14:39:10Z")
> [@Kable](#): > > Off the top of my head I don’t think I should be denied cheap surplus ammo imported from other countries. I’m currently building a SG-57 and don’t think I should have to locate a barrel and receiver to replace the ones destroyed to allow importation of the parts kit. I also don’t think I should have to pay a $200 tax stamp for every class 3 weapon or accessory that interests me. CCW on campus, yes I think I should be able. I can go on. Based on those trivialities, would it be fair to say that there are no restrictions on gun ownership you can accept? If not, what are they? > [@](#): > > I don’t expect a person like you to ever have thought the gun owner community had any credibility to lose. No dodging. There are more people than me or you in our society. Would you agree that your side’s stance has cost you (plural) credibility that you used to have in our society? > [@](#): > > I’d rather have one and not need one than need one and not have one. As of yet I can’t say I have ever needed one. Heck I don’t need a lot of things I own, but I like having them, and I don’t want anyone telling me I can’t. Does anyone else have rights that ever come into conflict with what you see as your rights? Such as, oh, I don’t know, the right not to have their lives endangered by you, for instance? > [@](#): > > In fact people telling me I shouldn’t have them makes me buy more of them. And the gun manufacturers are deeply thankful to you for that. > [@](#): > > See, I believe in this thing called “freedom” and I figure you probably don’t understand. Do you understand that others have rights as well? ---
**Author:** ![Lumpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lumpy/32/446_2.png) [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2013, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-war-on-guns/669101/184 "2013-09-21T15:06:57Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Do you understand that others have rights as well? Sure; but they don’t include a “right” to be “safe”- to have a limitless veto of others’ freedom based on your fears. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2013, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-war-on-guns/669101/185 "2013-09-21T15:08:26Z")
> [@Lumpy](#): > > Sure; but they don’t include a “right” to be “safe”- to have a limitless veto of others’ freedom based on your fears. Doesn’t that swing both ways? ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2013, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-war-on-guns/669101/186 "2013-09-21T15:46:21Z")
> [@Lumpy](#): > > Sure; but they don’t include a “right” to be “safe”- to have a limitless veto of others’ freedom based on your fears. To clarify your thinking: Who represents a \*real \*threat to whom? :dubious: Are there or are there not tens of thousands of people really killed by gun-carriers every year? Were their fears, and the fears of others not yet killed, imaginary or based on fact? Where in your philosophy do the rights of other people even _exist_? ---
**Author:** ![Lumpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lumpy/32/446_2.png) [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2013, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-war-on-guns/669101/187 "2013-09-21T15:55:10Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > To clarify your thinking: Who represents a \*real \*threat to whom? :dubious: Are there or are there not tens of thousands of people really killed by gun-carriers every year? Were their fears, and the fears of others not yet killed, imaginary or based on fact? > > Where in your philosophy do the rights of other people even _exist_? Tens of thousands of women are raped by strangers every year. Maybe men should have to wear chastity belts in public. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2013, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-war-on-guns/669101/188 "2013-09-21T15:57:59Z")
No ducking. Either answer the question or admit you have no answer. ---
**Author:** ![Lumpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lumpy/32/446_2.png) [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2013, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-war-on-guns/669101/189 "2013-09-21T16:08:17Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > No ducking. Either answer the question or admit you have no answer. Fine; other people have the exact same rights I do. I don’t consider it a violation of my rights if others carry guns. I expect reciprocation. ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2013, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-war-on-guns/669101/190 "2013-09-21T16:16:24Z")
[QUOTE=ElvisL1ves;16685665 Do you understand that others have rights as well?[/QUOTE] Do you? No ducking, do you deny the positive utility of being armed and able to defend oneself? People like me who support the RKBA don’t cater to hoplophobes and people like you. Your opinion or perceived notion of anyone’s credibility is irrelevant. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2013, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-war-on-guns/669101/191 "2013-09-21T16:22:02Z")
> [@Bone](#): > > Do you? > > No ducking, do you deny the positive utility of being armed and able to defend oneself? > > People like me who support the RKBA don’t cater to hoplophobes and people like you. Your opinion or perceived notion of anyone’s credibility is irrelevant. Which means that this isn’t a debate or even a discussion-This is a rally. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2013, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-war-on-guns/669101/192 "2013-09-21T16:30:13Z")
> [@Bone](#): > > No ducking, do you deny the positive utility of being armed and able to defend oneself? Not at all. However, that isn’t the only right in play, is there? No ducking. Is there? > [@](#): > > People like me who support the RKBA don’t cater to hoplophobes and people like you. Your opinion or perceived notion of anyone’s credibility is irrelevant. Is that what you would say to all the victims and their families? That their views, since they differ from your own, were “irrelevant”, that they had no rights to equal your own right to carry, is that it? Yes or no, and explain please. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2013, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-war-on-guns/669101/193 "2013-09-21T16:31:26Z")
> [@Lumpy](#): > > Fine; other people have the exact same rights I do. I don’t consider it a violation of my rights if others carry guns. I expect reciprocation. You’re either still ducking or you’re not understanding the question; I’ll assume the latter. Does anyone else have a right to be safe from you? ---
**Author:** ![Esox\_Lucius](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/848f3c/32.png) [@Esox\_Lucius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Esox_Lucius)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2013, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-war-on-guns/669101/194 "2013-09-21T19:42:55Z")
> [@Bob\_Blaylock](#): > > That’s a very odd definition of “freedom”—not being allowed to do something, but thinking one doesn’t need to do so anyway. **Most Americans think that freedom means being allowed to do something.** Like going out in public without getting shot? Freedom isn’t just about guns. > [@Bob\_Blaylock](#): > > I guess it’s an inevitable result of the difference between a nation that was founded in violent and forceful rebellion against a horrendous tyrant, and another nation that was founded in grovelling and cowering before that same tyrant. You have an odd definition of “debate”. It doesn’t mean “insult”. But to respond, the horrendous tyrant was banished over two hundred years ago. There’s been a few changes in the world since then. Don’t you think it’s time to move on? > [@Kable](#): > > Who said anything about need. I’m free to choose to carry if I want to or not. That what freedom means “the absence of necessity, coercion, or constraint in choice or action.” Right. I have the “absence of necessity” to carry a gun because I don’t have to worry about being threatened by someone else with a gun. One of the benefits of living in a modern civilized country is the freedom from random violence. A lot of people in the world, like in Somalia for example, would dearly love to have that freedom, even though they already have the so-called “freedom” to carry a gun. For them, carrying a gun has nothing to do with a fluffy, rainbow vision of freedom and everything to do with necessity. Every year, about 80,000 Americans find out they don’t have freedom from gun violence either. If you don’t need to carry a gun, why would you? > [@Kable](#): > > To a degree yes. I was complaining about that earlier if you didn’t notice. The bright side is the guns I want but have trouble getting are luxuries with historical rather than practical value. Like that SG-57 I mentioned. Maybe you could get it in Somalia. Gun restrictions are a little more relaxed there. ---
**Author:** ![JXJohns](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jxjohns/32/469_2.png) [@JXJohns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JXJohns)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2013, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-war-on-guns/669101/195 "2013-09-21T21:29:21Z")
> [@Farin](#): > > Because one party says “NEVER!” and the other party says “ALWAYS!” \*\*and the NRA lobbys for things that help manufacturers more than it’s citizen membership. \*\* Explain the bolded part please. As I stated last time you posted something similar, membership is growing. What is the NRA ignoring from it’s membership? I see them fighting for their members at both the state and Federal levels. What exactly are you seeing? > [@](#): > > They don’t listen to an American that wants a mental health system, comprehensive background checks, and some other minor modifications to existing law. The NRA listens to its members. It is not beholden to the American public. ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2013, 10:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-war-on-guns/669101/196 "2013-09-21T22:04:11Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Which means that this isn’t a debate or even a discussion-This is a rally. With **Elvis or other hoplophobes there is no debate or discussion. It’s not like I’m under the false belief that he would ever modify his beliefs. Like Der Thris** - whenever anyone actually engages them it’s not for them, but for other readers. That’s the impression I get at least, YMMV. \*\*Elivs \*\*asked what rights have been given up and should be taken back and when Kable answered honestly (without ducking!) they are dismissed as trivial and evidence that no restrictions would be acceptable. That’s a ridiculous excuse for a debate. No, there is no debate with people like **Elvis** and other hoplophobes. I’d be glad to have an actual debate - and have in prior threads. Just not with **Elvis**. That would be as productive as having a debate with the crazy person muttering to himself on the bus. Like I said, his feigned concern over perceived credibility is a poorly crafted ruse. People who support the RKBA don’t care what people like \*\*Elvis \*\*and other hoplophobes think. At all. His opinions are like…lint. Feel free to take a poll, it could be, “Do people who self identify as supporters of the 2nd amendment and the RKBA care what \*\*Elvis \*\*thinks?” But for the sake of other readers who may see his ideas and think they go unchallenged - that’s the only reason at all to respond. > [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Not at all. However, that isn’t the only right in play, is there? No ducking. Is there? Did someone give you a phrase a day calendar? You must think that saying “no ducking” is some clever tactic for you to use it so much. Like it’s some kind of gotcha! Obvious question has an obvious answer - there are many rights in play of course. Now your turn - Which do you think is greater in an average year, the number of people who defend themselves with firearms, or the number of people who are killed by firearms? > [@](#): > > Is that what you would say to all the victims and their families? That their views, since they differ from your own, were “irrelevant”, that they had no rights to equal your own right to carry, is that it? Yes or no, and explain please. A person’s status as a victim adds no weight or credibility to their beliefs in our system of laws more than my own. We evaluate our laws based on their merits, not anecdotes from selected victims. If one of those individuals who was a victim believed that they could have prevented a tragedy had they been allowed to be armed, would that sway you? No ducking! > [@Esox\_Lucius](#): > > … One of the benefits of living in a modern civilized country is the freedom from random violence. Where does one enjoy this freedom? ---
**Author:** ![Esox\_Lucius](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/848f3c/32.png) [@Esox\_Lucius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Esox_Lucius)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2013, 12:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-war-on-guns/669101/197 "2013-09-22T00:48:16Z")
> [@Kable](#): > > You sound free to do as you’re told, which isn’t very free. When you put it like that :rolleyes:, you’re not very free either. You’re told to stay under the speed limit, stop at red lights, not to murder, rape, torture, kidnap, etc, etc. It’s a bitch being under the yoke of civilization, innit? Let’s you and me head off to Somalia. We can do whatever we want there, even rape and murder. Well, as long as the warlords let us and no one murders us first, but hey, freedom! ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2013, 1:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-war-on-guns/669101/198 "2013-09-22T01:11:13Z")
> [@Bone](#): > > With \*\*Elvis \*\*or other hoplophobes there is no debate or discussion. You have none to offer, only empty boastful phrases and Words of the Day. > [@](#): > > \*\*Elivs \*\*asked what rights have been given up and should be taken back and when Kable answered honestly (without ducking!) they are dismissed as trivial and evidence that no restrictions would be acceptable. That isn’t \*avoiding \*a discussion at all, it’s holding it up to the light - where it shrivels. You’ve certainly got a lot of personal invective to offer instead. Not very creative or literate invective, though. > [@](#): > > Obvious question has an obvious answer - there are many rights in play of course. Such as? Was there a thought behind that “answer”? > [@](#): > > Now your turn - Which do you think is greater in an average year, the number of people who defend themselves with firearms, or the number of people who are killed by firearms? Been over that many times, and no, you’re not getting spoonfed; you can do your own homework. Hint: It’s the latter, by far. > [@](#): > > A person’s status as a victim adds no weight or credibility to their beliefs in our system of laws more than my own. But you offer it no \*more \*than you offer anyone’s who does not agree with you. > [@](#): > > If one of those individuals who was a victim believed that they could have prevented a tragedy had they been allowed to be armed, would that sway you? No ducking! We’re talking the broad totals, not any one individual, even though you would obviously feel comfortable denying the existence of tens of thousands of deaths per year if there were only one to support you. And that’s even though the answer you’re fishing for involves you’re being dead instead. How is that preferable? > [@](#): > > Where does one enjoy this freedom? The freedom not to have to be concerned with anyone else’s rights, to have no responsibilities whatever to anyone else? _Nowhere_. Most people learn that a pretty early age, btw. ---
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2013, 1:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-war-on-guns/669101/199 "2013-09-22T01:23:04Z")
> [@Bone](#): > > I’d be glad to have an actual debate - and have in prior threads. Just not with **Elvis**. That would be as productive as having a debate with the crazy person muttering to himself on the bus. Like I said, his feigned concern over perceived credibility is a poorly crafted ruse. People who support the RKBA don’t care what people like \*\*Elvis \*\*and other hoplophobes think. At all. His opinions are like…lint. Feel free to take a poll, it could be, “Do people who self identify as supporters of the 2nd amendment and the RKBA care what \*\*Elvis \*\*thinks?” But for the sake of other readers who may see his ideas and think they go unchallenged - that’s the only reason at all to respond. Bone, that’s really over the line. That’s attacking the poster and not the argument. Don’t do this again. Warning issued. However, bonus points for use of the world hoplophobe. ---
**Author:** ![Lumpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lumpy/32/446_2.png) [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2013, 2:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-war-on-guns/669101/200 "2013-09-22T02:14:24Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > You’re either still ducking or you’re not understanding the question; I’ll assume the latter. Does anyone else have a right to be safe from you? How safe do you want to be? Just what do you want to forbid me to own? Knives? Noxious household chemicals? An ax or a machete? A baseball bat or a steel pipe? Power tools? Do you want to forbid me to take boxing or martial arts lessons? Or weight training so I won’t be too muscular? There’s a series of science fiction stories by Jack Williamson about a race of robots called the Humanoids. They were programmed to protect the human race from itself- and they did so by enforcing bans on even the most innocuous things that could conceivably cause harm. That’s the absurd extreme of demanding to be “safe”. Sooner or later you simply have to accept that there’s no such thing as safe as you apparently mean it, except that fortunately most people don’t mean you harm and can be strongly deterred from trying, by either self-defense or retribution from the state. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-war-on-guns/669101.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-war-on-guns/669101.md?page=11)