# The War on Guns **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 17, 2013, 10:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-war-on-guns/669101 "2013-09-17T22:13:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![the\_diego](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7bcc69/32.png) [@the\_diego](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/the_diego)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2013, 4:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-war-on-guns/669101/41 "2013-09-18T04:31:08Z")
Was never a fan of the AR-xx. I want a pre-64 Winchester M-70. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e36b37/32.png) [@Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airman_Doors_USAF)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2013, 4:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-war-on-guns/669101/42 "2013-09-18T04:31:36Z")
I must tell you, I am thoroughly enjoying the civics lesson on civilization and what we must do from a foreigner. I do so enjoy it every time one deigns to tell us what we’re doing wrong. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2013, 4:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-war-on-guns/669101/43 "2013-09-18T04:38:26Z")
> [@sentrix](#): > > … countries which have banned/restricted gun ownership… I hear Mexico has _great_ gun control laws. They’d be the envy of most every European nation. Really strict! Gun-grabbing liberals would love them! And who can argue with the results? ---
**Author:** ![Dissonance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/85f322/32.png) [@Dissonance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dissonance)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2013, 5:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-war-on-guns/669101/44 "2013-09-18T05:32:28Z")
> [@smiling\_bandit](#): > > Actually, by rounds expended and man-hours involved, target and sport shooting is much more common than the use of firearms to inflict bodily harm on anything. It’s a quite popular sport, and one practiced and practical for just about anyone. It takes considerable skill and practice to do well, but doesn’t require a particular body type or physical training. there are quite a few firearms oriented more towards this type of shooting. Which is dodging the point again. Firearms are not designed for target shooting. They are designed to kill things. It’s as absurd as saying a bow isn’t a weapon because it can be used to hunt or that a spear isn’t a weapon because it can be used to hunt or that a javelin isn’t a weapon because it is only used for Olympic sports in the modern age. They are all weapons, and they are all designed to kill things. Because you choose to make the word “weapon” mean something in your own head other than what it actually means is the epitome of [Humpty-Dumpty and glory](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Humpty_Dumpty#In_Through_the_Looking-Glass): > [@](#): > > "I don’t know what you mean by ‘glory,’ " Alice said. > Humpty Dumpty smiled contemptuously. "Of course you don’t—till I tell you. I meant ‘there’s a nice knock-down argument for you!’ " > “But ‘glory’ doesn’t mean ‘a nice knock-down argument’,” Alice objected. > “When I use a word,” Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, “it means just what I choose it to mean—neither more nor less.” > “The question is,” said Alice, “whether you can make words mean so many different things.” > “The question is,” said Humpty Dumpty, “which is to be master—that’s all.” > Alice was too much puzzled to say anything, so after a minute Humpty Dumpty began again. “They’ve a temper, some of them—particularly verbs, they’re the proudest—adjectives you can do anything with, but not verbs—however, I can manage the whole lot! Impenetrability! That’s what I say!” > [@](#): > > And, by the by, it was no dodge. I say that in person, have said it since I was age eight, and will say it as long as I am graced with continued life. Hunters carry firearms. Soldiers carry weapons. I’m sorry, it’s a total dodge. As I said, there’s glory for you. I can say for as long as I live that hunters carry glory and soldiers carry weapons. That doesn’t make it true. ---
**Author:** ![the\_diego](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7bcc69/32.png) [@the\_diego](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/the_diego)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2013, 5:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-war-on-guns/669101/45 "2013-09-18T05:37:00Z")
There are forearms designed purely for target shooting and, though not impossible, are impractical as weapons. That’s a valid point. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2013, 5:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-war-on-guns/669101/46 "2013-09-18T05:44:20Z")
If you’re not Canadian, you’re uncivilized. There’s no way around it. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2013, 5:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-war-on-guns/669101/47 "2013-09-18T05:53:14Z")
> [@the\_diego](#): > > There are forearms designed purely for target shooting and, though not impossible, are impractical as weapons. I’m not sure if the Second Amendment applies to cyborgs. ---
**Author:** ![Dissonance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/85f322/32.png) [@Dissonance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dissonance)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2013, 5:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-war-on-guns/669101/48 "2013-09-18T05:53:59Z")
> [@the\_diego](#): > > There are forearms designed purely for target shooting and, though not impossible, are impractical as weapons. That’s a valid point. It’s not a valid point. **smiling bandit** is saying firearms are not weapons. There’s a couple of easy ways to find out if this is the case: one is for you to walk into a bank with a shotgun and try explaining that since you use it for hunting it’s a firearm and therefore not a weapon and see how far that gets you. The other is for you to shoot at someone with a target pistol and try defending yourself against the charge of assault with a deadly weapon by insisting that your target pistol isn’t a weapon, thus it is improper to be charged with assault with a deadly weapon. Seeing as **Bricker** is in this thread perhaps we should ask him how far that will fly as a legal defense. ---
**Author:** ![the\_diego](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7bcc69/32.png) [@the\_diego](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/the_diego)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2013, 5:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-war-on-guns/669101/49 "2013-09-18T05:59:11Z")
That’s wrong of course. A pure hunter or target shooter can even agree to have his “weapon” stored at the range or the police armory. Or even just the bolt in the case of bolt rifles. And as rejoinder to your two impractical scenarios, a dolt creeping around the target range (down range that is) is shot by me, intentionally. I doubt if I’ll be in greater trouble beyond having to sit out several days of questioning by an understanding policeman. ---
**Author:** ![Kable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed655f/32.png) [@Kable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kable)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2013, 6:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-war-on-guns/669101/50 "2013-09-18T06:05:01Z")
> [@aNewLeaf](#): > > I trained with and used the original AR-15, we called it an M-16 at the time. > It’s a tool designed for killing humans at close range and no other purpose, it’s not a hunting weapon. I shot a javalina with one. I’m building another specific for prairie dogs. > [@](#): > > Doesn’t meant that anybody used one in this recent mess. I heard the guy used Joe Biden’s favorite gun. Irony, got to love it. ---
**Author:** ![Kable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed655f/32.png) [@Kable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kable)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2013, 6:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-war-on-guns/669101/51 "2013-09-18T06:09:35Z")
> [@Dissonance](#): > > There’s glory for you. I’d much rather call it what it is: a rather poor and obvious dodge. Firearms are weapons. They are designed for only one function: to kill things, whether its people or animals. Saying a firearm isn’t a weapon is absurd on its face. I assure you, my Krieghoff K80 Pro Sporter is not designed to kill either people or animals. ---
**Author:** ![Half\_Man\_Half\_Wit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/half_man_half_wit/32/21766_2.png) [@Half\_Man\_Half\_Wit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Half_Man_Half_Wit)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2013, 6:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-war-on-guns/669101/52 "2013-09-18T06:19:53Z")
> [@Airman\_Doors\_USAF](#): > > I must tell you, I am thoroughly enjoying the civics lesson on civilization and what we must do from a foreigner. I do so enjoy it every time one deigns to tell us what we’re doing wrong. Is this meant to be irony? I honestly can’t tell sometimes in online discussions, so it’s better to ask than assume, I think. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2013, 7:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-war-on-guns/669101/53 "2013-09-18T07:08:05Z")
> [@Dissonance](#): > > It’s not a valid point. **smiling bandit** is saying firearms are not weapons. There’s a couple of easy ways to find out if this is the case: one is for you to walk into a bank with a shotgun and try explaining that since you use it for hunting it’s a firearm and therefore not a weapon and see how far that gets you. The other is for you to shoot at someone with a target pistol and try defending yourself against the charge of assault with a deadly weapon by insisting that your target pistol isn’t a weapon, thus it is improper to be charged with assault with a deadly weapon. Seeing as **Bricker** is in this thread perhaps we should ask him how far that will fly as a legal defense. This seems like a really terrible way of defining “weapon”. If you hit someone with a brick, or clobber them with a pipe wrench, you’ll also be charged with “assault with a deadly weapon” / aggravated assault / something like that. That doesn’t mean that most of us would label a brick or a pipe wrench a “weapon”. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2013, 7:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-war-on-guns/669101/54 "2013-09-18T07:53:51Z")
Here’s “the most trusted name in news” claiming that Alexis (Navy Yard shooter) “legally purchased AR15 Shotgun”: [.jpg](http://www.powerlineblog.com/admin/ed-assets/2013/09/ar15-shotgun.jpg) :rolleyes: You’d have to remove the word “AR15” for that to be true, but then it wouldn’t fit CNN’s agenda. ---
**Author:** ![Dissonance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/85f322/32.png) [@Dissonance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dissonance)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2013, 8:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-war-on-guns/669101/55 "2013-09-18T08:10:36Z")
> [@the\_diego](#): > > And as rejoinder to your two impractical scenarios, a dolt creeping around the target range (down range that is) is shot by me, intentionally. I doubt if I’ll be in greater trouble beyond having to sit out several days of questioning by an understanding policeman. They’re not impractical, try doing either one of them and using your defense against criminal charges that you were using a firearm, which is not a weapon. And if you think _intentionally_ shooting someone at a firing range with the defense of “they were a dolt and where they weren’t supposed to be” is going to protect you from murder charges, you’ve got another thing coming. Try intentionally running over a pedestrian who is jaywalking in your car and telling the police officer you didn’t do anything wrong, they were jaywalking so you were allowed to run them over. > [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > This seems like a really terrible way of defining “weapon”. If you hit someone with a brick, or clobber them with a pipe wrench, you’ll also be charged with “assault with a deadly weapon” / aggravated assault / something like that. That doesn’t mean that most of us would label a brick or a pipe wrench a “weapon”. You’ve got this backwards. It’s not my contention that that a brick or wrench is always a weapon because it can potentially be used as a weapon. It’s **smiling bandit** ’s contention that firearms and weapons are different things; a firearm isn’t a weapon unless a policeman or soldier picks it up, at which point it magically ceases to be a firearm and is now a weapon. ---
**Author:** ![JXJohns](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jxjohns/32/469_2.png) [@JXJohns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JXJohns)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2013, 1:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-war-on-guns/669101/56 "2013-09-18T13:09:25Z")
> [@Half\_Man\_Half\_Wit](#): > > Is this meant to be irony? I honestly can’t tell sometimes in online discussions, so it’s better to ask than assume, I think. I’d call it sarcasm, and I agree with the point being made. ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2013, 1:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-war-on-guns/669101/57 "2013-09-18T13:42:39Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > You’re being absurdly pedantic. His point, as a military veteran, was that it wasn’t designed for hunting. > > Yes people can use it for hunting, but that wasn’t why it was designed. Careful there… most “hunting” rifles are basically Mauser-pattern bolt action rifles, which were designed about 115 years ago more or less as military rifles, not hunting rifles. I think you’d be hard pressed to look through history and find ANY rifle that was specifically designed for hunting that’s not a pretty close derivative of a rifle originally designed for military service, back to and including muzzle loaders of all sorts. Shotguns were likely developed specifically for bird hunting and were back-adapted for military use however. ---
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2013, 2:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-war-on-guns/669101/58 "2013-09-18T14:54:27Z")
> [@Dissonance](#): > > You’ve got this backwards. It’s not my contention that that a brick or wrench is always a weapon because it can potentially be used as a weapon. It’s **smiling bandit** ’s contention that firearms and weapons are different things; a firearm isn’t a weapon unless a policeman or soldier picks it up, at which point it magically ceases to be a firearm and is now a weapon. You have half-missed the point, and snide attitude has caused you to sneer at the exceedingly important other half of the point. The gun does nothing. It’s a piece of metal or wood (well, several pieces). What the thing _is_, is a matter of choice - human agency, in nice neat philosophical terms. TO a sportsman, the gun is a tool of practice and skill. Toa a historian or collector, the gun may have emotional or intellectual significance. To a hunter, it’s a critical aspect of an ancient ritual even though the implement itself is new. And it becomes a weapon precisely when and where it is picked up by someone with the intent of bringing death and destruction to other human beings. On its own, the gun is nothing of great importance. Only a _man_ makes it good or bad. If you think this silly, then I could, perhaps, explain why my father drilled this into people (and he did not hesitate to correct police or whomever came his way). Everyone who left his class knew how and when to handle a gun, and had an appropriate level of psychological readiness when they did carry a firearm. The words were chosen carefully. \*_Firearm_ is a neutral term, even dispassionate. It is descriptive and nothing more. Hence using the term firearm reinforced logical respect for the tool as such. \*_Weapon_ is not a neutral term. Even if the two words had identical denotation (they don’t), the connotation is very different. I.E., the point was to strip away emotion, ego, and fear and encourage people to pay attention to what they were doing. Safety can’t just be rules; it must become habit. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2013, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-war-on-guns/669101/59 "2013-09-18T15:13:19Z")
> [@sentrix](#): > > america has a lot of catching up to do with civilized nations where guns are banned or accessible only to farmers for shooting feral animals, police and armed forces. Well, ACAB and all, but I don’t think there’s a permit for shooting the po-po, even in France :). Feral po-po might be OK, I’ll check with the groundskeeper. ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2013, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-war-on-guns/669101/60 "2013-09-18T15:34:43Z")
> [@smiling\_bandit](#): > > … If you want to know why I am an obnoxious stickler on that point, it’s because my father drilled that into my head while I was a child. Weapons are for killing; firearms are for sport. And I don’t care what the dictionary says because my old man would turn over in his grave, get out of it, and kick my arse down the street if I didn’t proclaim it to the world. … Cool story, bro. To draw a distinction between the word weapon and firearm as if one is not a subset of the other is a ridiculously pedantic hijack. If that’s how you choose to use those words then fine - but don’t expect to bend the world to your non-standard use of ordinary well established words. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-war-on-guns/669101.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-war-on-guns/669101.md?page=4)