# The War on Guns **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 17, 2013, 10:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-war-on-guns/669101 "2013-09-17T22:13:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2013, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-war-on-guns/669101/61 "2013-09-18T15:41:39Z")
> [@smiling\_bandit](#): > > Everyone who left his class knew how and when to handle a gun, **and had an appropriate level of psychological readiness when they did carry a firearm.** (bolding mine)That’s quite an accomplishment. How did he determine the psychological readiness of all his students? ---
**Author:** ![Labrador\_Deceiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7c8e57/32.png) [@Labrador\_Deceiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Labrador_Deceiver)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2013, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-war-on-guns/669101/62 "2013-09-18T15:45:50Z")
> [@Bone](#): > > …but don’t expect to bend the world to your non-standard use of ordinary well established words. I don’t think that he is, at all. It sounds to me like he’s just trying to explain to everyone why he uses the terms differently, while acknowledging that his preference doesn’t mesh with the accepted definitions. I’m trying to figure out why he’s catching so much flack for it. (ETA: Granted, I just re-read his initial post, and the first sentence does come across more along the lines as trying to “bend the world” a bit.) ---
**Author:** ![Irishman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/b487fb/32.png) [@Irishman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Irishman)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2013, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-war-on-guns/669101/63 "2013-09-18T16:28:28Z")
First, that article is definitely a hit piece on AR-15’s, not an objective news story on the Navy yard shooting. Second, “weapon” is a word about use. Looking up several definitions: > [@](#): > > [weapon](http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/weapon): something (such as a gun, knife, club, or bomb) that is used for fighting or attacking someone or for defending yourself when someone is attacking you > > 1 **:** something (as a club, knife, or gun) used to injure, defeat, or destroy > [@](#): > > 1. [An instrument](http://www.thefreedictionary.com/weapon)of attack or defense in combat, as a gun, missile, or sword > [@](#): > > 1. (Military / Arms & Armour (excluding Firearms)) (Military / Firearms, Gunnery, Ordnance & Artillery) an object or instrument used in fighting > [@](#): > > 1. any instrument or device used for attack or defense in a fight or in combat. 2. anything used against an opponent, adversary, or victim: the weapon of satire. > 2. any part or organ serving for attack or defense, as claws, horns, teeth, or stings. Things become weapons by their use. So I think the philosophical distinction being made is that a firearm is a tool that can have many uses. It can be used for shooting holes in pieces of paper. It can be used to kill varmits. It can be used for self-defense, or for hunting for fun and/or food. And it can be used for shooting other people. A weapon is any tool that is used for attacking or defending. A firearm is a weapon when it is used as one, but does not retain an inherent “weapon” status. Neither does a sword or a bow and arrow or a spear. Those are tools that are typically used as weapons, but aren’t _inherently_ weapons. So I agree with the point **smiling bandit** is trying to make. Calling firearms “weapons” is a psychologically charged term that fosters the mindset of the “those things are evil” crowd. It plays to their fears and attitudes, gives them leverage. If you are of the “guns don’t kill people, people kill people” crowd, then it is important to choose your terminology to fit that attitude, to express neutrally how guns are tools and only become weapons through certain uses. Of course, there’s a simple rejoinder to the “guns don’t kill people” mantra: _Guns don’t kill people, people kill people - often using guns._ YMMV. And none of that would get you out of any of **Dissonance** ’s situations, because by virtue of those situations, the firearms became weapons during use. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2013, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-war-on-guns/669101/64 "2013-09-18T17:41:21Z")
> [@Irishman](#): > > First, that article is definitely a hit piece on AR-15’s, not an objective news story on the Navy yard shooting. They’re not the only ones that have done it either: [BuzzFeed: Officials Now Say That The Navy Yard Shooter Did Not Use The Same Style Weapon As Sandy Hook And Aurora](http://www.buzzfeed.com/ryanhatesthis/the-same-type-of-gun-was-used-in-the-navy-yard-shooting-sand) the subtitle says, “If you aren’t familiar with it, meet the AR-15” [NY Daily News: AR-15 is the rifle for the ‘sport’ of hunting humans](http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/ar-15-rifle-sport-hunting-humans-article-1.1458039) [Washington Times](http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2013/sep/17/miller-new-york-times-gets-it-wrong-about-navy-yar/), [Breitbart](http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Journalism/2013/09/17/Ar-15-daily-news-cnn-already-blow-anti-gun-narrative), the [National Review](http://www.nationalreview.com/article/358714/gun-controls-dead-end-charles-c-w-cooke) and [theDC](http://dailycaller.com/2013/09/17/politicians-media-outlets-red-faced-over-wrong-claims-about-gun-in-navy-yard-shootings/) provide a good summary of the media’s AR-15 fetish. ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2013, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-war-on-guns/669101/65 "2013-09-18T18:05:23Z")
[This image](http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-sK4XW4F9qWA/UBKm7z7OYzI/AAAAAAAAChk/TymUV8uJo0M/s640/journalists-guide-to-firearms-identification.jpg) comes to mind. ---
**Author:** ![DigitalC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ebca7d/32.png) [@DigitalC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DigitalC)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2013, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-war-on-guns/669101/66 "2013-09-18T18:22:30Z")
> [@sentrix](#): > > …because americans think its their constitutional right to carry a weapon. ban them nationwide. you don’t need a weapon ( unless you are police, army, etc), you want one, compensates for something. why would the average joe blow need a gun? You are wasting your time, you are trying to argue with people who think the solution to gun violence is guns. There is no reasonable discussion to be had about guns in a mostly american message board. You just have to wait until they grow out of it, which will take decades and hundreds of more mass killings. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2013, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-war-on-guns/669101/67 "2013-09-18T18:35:50Z")
> [@bump](#): > > [This image](http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-sK4XW4F9qWA/UBKm7z7OYzI/AAAAAAAAChk/TymUV8uJo0M/s640/journalists-guide-to-firearms-identification.jpg) comes to mind. Pretty much, except the commonly mistaken reference is to “AR-15” instead of “AK-47” ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2013, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-war-on-guns/669101/68 "2013-09-18T18:38:13Z")
> [@DigitalC](#): > > You are wasting your time, you are trying to argue with people who think the solution to gun violence is guns. There is no reasonable discussion to be had about guns in a mostly american message board. You just have to wait until they grow out of it, which will take decades and hundreds of more mass killings. Can we send Piers Morgan to you guys until he realizes this? ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2013, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-war-on-guns/669101/69 "2013-09-18T18:41:33Z")
> [@aNewLeaf](#): > > If it shoots a tiny fast bullet out of the same short barrel as an M16 it’s going to vaporize a rabbit and be too small for deer. > I don’t know what you could plausibly hunt with an AR-15. Boar, maybe? Goats? Depends on the deer, not trophy bucks perhaps but if you’re hunting to eat vanilla AR-15 should be plenty. But if I get an AR-15 chambered in .308 then is it for hunting? > [@Marley23](#): > > I won’t give you a warning because this is a question, but do not do this again. You can’t call people liars or nuts in this forum. Wait, you can’t call people crazy here?!?:eek: It happens often enough I didn’t even realize it was prohibited. > [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > You’re being absurdly pedantic. His point, as a military veteran, was that it wasn’t designed for hunting. > > Yes people can use it for hunting, but that wasn’t why it was designed. I think most hunting rifle designs started out as military rifles. these days you see a lot of the accessorizing you used to see on an AR-15 on hunting rifles as well. Rifles are a tool for firing ammunition. > [@sentrix](#): > > …because americans think its their constitutional right to carry a weapon. ban them nationwide. you don’t need a weapon ( unless you are police, army, etc), you want one, compensates for something. why would the average joe blow need a gun? Well first of all, it IS our constitutional right. As for why the average joe blow might need a gun: [![](https://img.youtube.com/vi/Y3GZUmBtZkQ/hqdefault.jpg "What to expect when society breaks down after a crisis") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y3GZUmBtZkQ) and self defense generally. ---
**Author:** ![Kable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed655f/32.png) [@Kable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kable)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2013, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-war-on-guns/669101/70 "2013-09-18T18:46:53Z")
> [@DigitalC](#): > > You just have to wait until they grow out of it, which will take decades and hundreds of more mass killings. None as big as Europe though. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2013, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-war-on-guns/669101/71 "2013-09-18T18:52:43Z")
Maybe if they changed its name so it looks like it stands for _Hunting Rifle_, instead of _Assault Rifle_… ---
**Author:** ![Cowboy8467](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b5e925/32.png) [@Cowboy8467](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cowboy8467)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2013, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-war-on-guns/669101/72 "2013-09-18T18:58:34Z")
> [@kaylasdad99](#): > > Maybe if they changed its name so it looks like it stands for _Hunting Rifle_, instead of _Assault Rifle_… AR stands for ArmaLite Rifle. ---
**Author:** ![naita](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/naita/32/5862_2.png) [@naita](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/naita)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2013, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-war-on-guns/669101/73 "2013-09-18T19:20:34Z")
> [@Irishman](#): > > So I agree with the point **smiling bandit** is trying to make. Calling firearms “weapons” is a psychologically charged term that fosters the mindset of the “those things are evil” crowd. It plays to their fears and attitudes, gives them leverage. If you are of the “guns don’t kill people, people kill people” crowd, then it is important to choose your terminology to fit that attitude, to express neutrally how guns are tools and only become weapons through certain uses. That requires “firearms” to be a less charged term. To me it isn’t. As the dictionary\* says it’s a subset of the term weapon, in contexts where it’s clear that the weapon in question is a firearm, such as a mass shooting, it carries the same connotations. What smiling bandit appears to miss or dismiss is that his father didn’t just pick two words with different connotations to teach something about guns, he picked two words and instilled different connotations in his students, but as those connotations are in no way universal asking for people here to use them that way would not have a similar effect without also sending everyone to language reorientation camp. \*“firearm: a weapon from which a shot is discharged by gunpowder —usually used of small arms” ([www.m-w.com](http://www.m-w.com)) ---
**Author:** ![SirGalahad](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/71c47a/32.png) [@SirGalahad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SirGalahad)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2013, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-war-on-guns/669101/74 "2013-09-18T19:34:25Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > How is it not a weapon? It’s a weapon. A tomahawk is a weapon. A stiletto is a weapon. Why this senseless debate about trying to make weapons non-weapons because they can also be used as tools? Uncounted thousand have been killed in Africa by machetes. They are tools. They are also weapons. Trying to describe a military styled rifle as a non weapon is like making the distinction of “what is human” in an abortion debate. It doesn’t matter. The 2nd Amendment is not about hunting, it’s about protection. It’s about protecting the State, and I think, by obvious implication, protecting the individual. However poorly it was worded, and why (that’s a whole other subject), it wasn’t about hunting or target shooting. Why can’t we all just admit that guns can be used for recreation, food gathering, varmint control AND killing armed or multiple attackers in the protection of ourselves and our loved ones, and that collateral damage is a regrettable but unavoidable side effect of using these weapon/ tools. There will be car wrecks, there will be motorcycle accidents, there will be bathtub, plastic bag and trampoline deaths. I don’t care if cars were invented to go fast and guns were invented to kill. That’s what they’re bloody for, they’re for killing animals and people, primarily people … and when you need to kill an intruder or attacker, nothing else will do quite as good a job. The original intent of the object is irrelevant … we use tools and weapons, and some of them are dangerous, and accidents and criminal behavior will rack up a death toll because we use advanced tools and weapons, and that’s an acceptable trade-off. We accept a certain number of automobile deaths, some from drunken drivers and criminal misuse. We also must accept a certain number of deaths because of accidental or criminal use of guns. The ability of a solitary person, maybe not big, maybe not strong, to protect him or herself from an attacker by using a gun is an inalienable right … though I’m afraid it may be infringed upon to the point that we no longer actually have the right to protect ourselves. Since I don’t bear arms, it might not affect me directly, but I hate to see it happening in this country. ---
**Author:** ![ExTank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/35a633/32.png) [@ExTank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ExTank)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2013, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-war-on-guns/669101/75 "2013-09-18T19:53:43Z")
> [@Dissonance](#): > > There’s glory for you. I’d much rather call it what it is: a rather poor and obvious dodge. Firearms are weapons. They are designed for only one function: to kill things, whether its people or animals. Saying a firearm isn’t a weapon is absurd on its face. You are not only dead wrong, you are dead fucking wrong, and here’s why: A gun is a tool. It has a multitude of uses to which it can be employed by its human wielder, such as target shooting, hunting, or home/self defense. Calling all firearms weapons implies that every firearm owner intends to shoot someone or some animal. I do NOT own firearms for self/home defense, or for sporting purposes; I’m a purely recreational/target shooter and collector. I’m not averse to using my firearms for home/self defense, or even hunting, but that’s not why I have them. You and other gun-control nuts’ insistence that all firearms are weapons has the implied corollary that all gun owners are going to use them to hurt/kill someone or something, which is a nice stigma to attach to your opponent in your War on Guns. ---
**Author:** ![Dissonance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/85f322/32.png) [@Dissonance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dissonance)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2013, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-war-on-guns/669101/76 "2013-09-18T19:58:22Z")
> [@smiling\_bandit](#): > > If you think this silly, then I could, perhaps, explain why my father drilled this into people (and he did not hesitate to correct police or whomever came his way). Everyone who left his class knew how and when to handle a gun, and had an appropriate level of psychological readiness when they did carry a firearm. The words were chosen carefully. Your father was ignorant and wrong? He showed no care in how he chose his words? I’m sorry, but you don’t have a point. > [@](#): > > \*_Firearm_ is a neutral term, even dispassionate. It is descriptive and nothing more. Hence using the term firearm reinforced logical respect for the tool as such. > \*_Weapon_ is not a neutral term. Even if the two words had identical denotation (they don’t), the connotation is very different. > I.E., the point was to strip away emotion, ego, and fear and encourage people to pay attention to what they were doing. Safety can’t just be rules; it must become habit. And glory means “there’s a knock down argument for you”. ‘Firearm’ and ‘weapon’ are words with specific meanings, neither one is more emotionally loaded or dispassionate than the other. Insisting that a firearm is not a weapon is factually wrong, nothing more and nothing less. Insisting that the dispassionate firearm becomes a menacing weapon the second a police officer or soldier picks it up is absurd and ignorant. Arguing this point is as absurd as insisting that a sword isn’t a weapon, or that a 500lb bomb isn’t a weapon if I happen to possess one, it only becomes a weapon when in possession of the military. I’m not even taking a side on the issue of gun control. I’m taking issue with your abuse of the English language. > [@Irishman](#): > > Second, “weapon” is a word about use. Looking up several definitions: Try looking up the definition of firearm. Here, I’ve already done it for you: [Firearm:](http://www.thefreedictionary.com/firearm) > [@](#): > > fire•arm (frärm) > n. > A weapon, especially a pistol or rifle, capable of firing a projectile and using an explosive charge as a propellant. [Firearm:](http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/firearm): > [@](#): > > a weapon from which a shot is discharged by gunpowder —usually used of small arms [Firearm](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Firearm): > [@](#): > > A firearm is a portable gun, being a barreled weapon that launches one or more projectiles often defined by the action of an explosive. [Firearm (US legal definition)](http://definitions.uslegal.com/f/firearms/): > [@](#): > > Under 26 USCA § 861 (a), firearms is defined as ““a shot gun or rifle having a barrel of less than eighteen inches in length, or any other weapon, except a pistol or revolver, from which a shot is discharged by an explosive if such weapon is capable of being concealed on the person, or a machine gun, and includes a muffler or silencer for any firearm whether or not such firearm is included within the foregoing definition.” Find me a definition of the word firearm that does not describe it as a weapon. Again, declaring ‘firearm’ or ‘weapon’ are loaded terms or that a firearm is not a weapon is absurd. ETA: > [@ExTank](#): > > You and other gun-control nuts’ insistence that all firearms are weapons has the implied corollary that all gun owners are going to use them to hurt/kill someone or something, which is a nice stigma to attach to your opponent in your War on Guns. Gun-control nut? Where have I taken a side on gun control? Seriously **ExTank** , you’re making this implication up in your head. I’ve implied no such thing. ---
**Author:** ![ExTank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/35a633/32.png) [@ExTank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ExTank)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2013, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-war-on-guns/669101/77 "2013-09-18T19:59:54Z")
> [@thelurkinghorror](#): > > No, that’s okay. But I’ve heard of people buying weapons chambered in 7.62x51mm :eek: That’s a round developed by the military, a weapon only meant for killing humans! > > Calling one a weapon and another not is pedantic. They’re all weapons, but that doesn’t make them inherently wrong. 7.62 is a .30 cal, a round that’s been around forever as a hunting cartridge. My Winchester Model 70 in 7mm Remington Magnum was developed in 1962 for taking medium/large game at range. ISince its inception and introduction, it’s also been adopted by several military and LE agencies around the world for snipers/sharpshooters. That in now way takes (or adds) anything from (or to) the fact that it was originally designed as a hunting cartridge. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2013, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-war-on-guns/669101/78 "2013-09-18T20:15:11Z")
Who and what was the AR-15 originally designed for? ---
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2013, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-war-on-guns/669101/79 "2013-09-18T20:32:48Z")
> [@ExTank](#): > > You and other gun-control nuts’ insistence that all firearms are weapons has the implied corollary that all gun owners are going to use them to hurt/kill someone or something, which is a nice stigma to attach to your opponent in your War on Guns. \ ExTank, that’s enough. You were warned, twice, that calling your debate opponents nuts was outside the lines. I realize this is an emotional issue but that’s no excuse for letting your feelings get the better of you. Warning issued for failing to follow moderator instructions. \ ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2013, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-war-on-guns/669101/80 "2013-09-18T20:35:55Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Who and what was the AR-15 originally designed for? For humans to launch small projectiles at a high rate of speed? Does it really matter? It’s a great weapon platform that is modular, can accommodate a variety of shooters, is light weight and accurate. The AR-15 pattern rifle is great for a wide variety of purposes and only loses efficacy in limited specific situations. One of the reasons it is among the most popular semi automatic rifles. It would be easier to name situations where the AR-15 pattern rifle was not good for, than to talk about what you can do with it. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-war-on-guns/669101.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-war-on-guns/669101.md?page=5)