# The War on Guns **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 17, 2013, 10:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-war-on-guns/669101 "2013-09-17T22:13:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2013, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-war-on-guns/669101/81 "2013-09-18T20:41:58Z")
> [@Bone](#): > > For humans to launch small projectiles at a high rate of speed? Does it really matter? It’s a great weapon platform that is modular, can accommodate a variety of shooters, is light weight and accurate. The AR-15 pattern rifle is great for a wide variety of purposes and only loses efficacy in limited specific situations. One of the reasons it is among the most popular semi automatic rifles. It would be easier to name situations where the AR-15 pattern rifle was not good for, than to talk about what you can do with it. Where were you a couple of posts ago when **ExTank** was talking about the original purpose of the Winchester Model 70 in 7mm Remington Magnum? ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2013, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-war-on-guns/669101/82 "2013-09-18T20:49:01Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Where were you a couple of posts ago when **ExTank** was talking about the original purpose of the Winchester Model 70 in 7mm Remington Magnum? With gun threads - I try my best to stick to the OP and not go on about generalities. ExTank is right of course. And it is also inconsequential to the ostensible topic of this thread - that being media bias/war on guns. ---
**Author:** ![ExTank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/35a633/32.png) [@ExTank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ExTank)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2013, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-war-on-guns/669101/83 "2013-09-18T20:54:15Z")
> [@Jonathan\_Chance](#): > > \ > ExTank, that’s enough. You were warned, twice, that calling your debate opponents nuts was outside the lines. I realize this is an emotional issue but that’s no excuse for letting your feelings get the better of you. > > Warning issued for failing to follow moderator instructions. > \ Fair 'nuf. I’ll just go on record by saying that anyone who advocates for gun control is a a spineless coward, and either a sexually inadequate person who is intimidated by the phallic symbolism of firearms. Furthermore, they are all, each and every one, a racists, and a leftist/socialist/communist who is just itching to round up all gun owners and put them in liquidation camps. Note that I’m not saying this about any particular poster, but just about anyone and everyone who advocates for more gun control. Since similar comments directed at _ **all gun owners** _ have a history of passing the Mods “smell test” for “civil discourse” in Great Debates, I assume these comments will stand. If not, oh well. ---
**Author:** ![ExTank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/35a633/32.png) [@ExTank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ExTank)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2013, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-war-on-guns/669101/84 "2013-09-18T20:56:55Z")
> [@Bone](#): > > With gun threads - I try my best to stick to the OP and not go on about generalities. ExTank is right of course. And it is also inconsequential to the ostensible topic of this thread - that being media bias/war on guns. Actually, it nicely illustrates the “divide and conquer” stragtegy that gun-control nuts like to employ. Some guns are bad, some are “okay, for now.” Some calibers are bad, some are “okay, for now.” Until the next du jour event, and the next round of “Will Someone PLEASE Think f the Children” round of ban proposals. ---
**Author:** ![hotflungwok](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/edb3f5/32.png) [@hotflungwok](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hotflungwok)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2013, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-war-on-guns/669101/85 "2013-09-18T20:58:41Z")
Seriously? People are trying to maintain that guns are not weapons? Really? Saying that something is not for ‘killing’ but for ‘hunting’ means that it’s not a weapon? Fire_arms_? I don’t get this. A weapon is a thing used to inflict injury. ‘Gun’ is a subcategory of ‘weapon’. While there are lots of things that can be wielded as weapons that are not intended to inflict injury, that’s exactly what guns are intended for. It doesn’t matter what you’re pointing it at or why, you’re going to hurt what you shoot. Yes, you can shoot at targets, but you’re still trying to damage it. When I was in the Boy Scouts we had it drilled into us that the rifles and shotguns we were using were in fact weapons. It was part of instilling proper respect for them. They are designed to cause injury, misused can cause someone to get killed, watch what you’re aiming at or someone can get killed, don’t mistreat the gun or someone can get killed, you’re holding a weapon in your hand that can kill, etc. ---
**Author:** ![thelurkinghorror](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7c8e57/32.png) [@thelurkinghorror](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thelurkinghorror)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2013, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-war-on-guns/669101/86 "2013-09-18T21:07:19Z")
> [@ExTank](#): > > 7.62 is a .30 cal, a round that’s been around forever as a hunting cartridge. > > My Winchester Model 70 in 7mm Remington Magnum was developed in 1962 for taking medium/large game at range. > > ISince its inception and introduction, it’s also been adopted by several military and LE agencies around the world for snipers/sharpshooters. > > That in now way takes (or adds) anything from (or to) the fact that it was originally designed as a hunting cartridge. Well, I wooshed you, but in the manner I was going for! > [@Czarcasm](#): > > Who and what was the AR-15 originally designed for? To make Eugene Stoner money. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2013, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-war-on-guns/669101/87 "2013-09-18T21:15:27Z")
> [@Bone](#): > > With gun threads - I try my best to stick to the OP and not go on about generalities. ExTank is right of course. And it is also inconsequential to the ostensible topic of this thread - that being media bias/war on guns. Thanx for the enlightenment. _My_ guess was going to be “Double standard”, btw. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2013, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-war-on-guns/669101/88 "2013-09-18T21:16:57Z")
You thought very, very wrong, **ExTank**. That’s not only insulting, it’s not a good way to respond to a mod note. I’m giving you a second warning here. Cool it or start a Pit thread. ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2013, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-war-on-guns/669101/89 "2013-09-18T22:03:14Z")
> [@ExTank](#): > > Actually, it nicely illustrates the “divide and conquer” stragtegy that gun-control nuts like to employ. Some guns are bad, some are “okay, for now.” Some calibers are bad, some are “okay, for now.” > > Until the next du jour event, and the next round of “Will Someone PLEASE Think f the Children” round of ban proposals. Yes - a common tactic of gun control advocates is to divide gun owners and their interests, divide guns as good and bad as you say. This is easily demonstrated by gun control advocates playing lip service to hunters, talk about sporting purpose, etc. Rather than get into the weeds about original purpose of various cartridges I prefer to address these tactics holistically - that it doesn’t matter. ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2013, 10:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-war-on-guns/669101/90 "2013-09-18T22:09:10Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > You thought very, very wrong, **ExTank**. That’s not only insulting, it’s not a good way to respond to a mod note. I’m giving you a second warning here. Cool it or start a Pit thread. The type of comments that ExTank made can be routinely found in gun threads in GD and pass without comment. Clearly his post was parody of those. ---
**Author:** ![JXJohns](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jxjohns/32/469_2.png) [@JXJohns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JXJohns)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2013, 10:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-war-on-guns/669101/91 "2013-09-18T22:18:29Z")
> [@Bone](#): > > The type of comments that ExTank made can be routinely found in gun threads in GD and pass without comment. Clearly his post was parody of those. Agree some consistency would be a treat. ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2013, 11:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-war-on-guns/669101/92 "2013-09-18T23:57:55Z")
> [@ExTank](#): > > You are not only dead wrong, you are dead fucking wrong I think you’re wrong (and I’m no gun grabber!). Weapon is usage-specific. A rock can be a weapon if someone picks it up and threatens to hit someone with it, or actually does hit someone with it. Same with a pipe wrench, lead pipe, chef’s knife, pointy stick, etc… Firearms are tools and can be weapons. They’re a little different in that they were originally designed and conceived to be weapons and the hunting and target shooting uses came along after the fact. The thing with the gun control advocates is that their appeal is primarily based in emotion. Not all of them are appealing to emotion, but a great many do- saying that an AR-15 is a “weapon” and “designed to kill” are statements intended to appeal to emotions and fear, rather than logic and common sense. You’d have the same argument if they were trying to ban knives- “They’re designed to CUT!” and “They’re pointy so they can stab!” with little regard for the fact that people use them to cut up vegetables, and that you can stab someone just as dead with a screwdriver. ---
**Author:** ![the\_diego](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7bcc69/32.png) [@the\_diego](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/the_diego)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2013, 12:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-war-on-guns/669101/93 "2013-09-19T00:14:11Z")
> [@Dissonance](#): > > They’re not impractical, try doing either one of them and using your defense against criminal charges that you were using a firearm, which is not a weapon. And if you think _intentionally_ shooting someone at a firing range with the defense of “they were a dolt and where they weren’t supposed to be” is going to protect you from murder charges, you’ve got another thing coming. Try intentionally running over a pedestrian who is jaywalking in your car and telling the police officer you didn’t do anything wrong, they were jaywalking so you were allowed to run them over. There is of course a certain amount of lying done by me (the shooter), all of which is plausible. I’m focusing on your definition of a “pure” weapon which rejects all other possible applications. There are very few “pure” weapons a civilian can get hold of. Aside from the dolt in the firing range, there’s also the classic dress-as-a-moose-and-walk-in-the-woods-during-hunting-season scenario. Same likely outcome: the shooter goes scott-free. ---
**Author:** ![Dissonance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/85f322/32.png) [@Dissonance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dissonance)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2013, 10:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-war-on-guns/669101/94 "2013-09-19T10:17:11Z")
> [@the\_diego](#): > > There is of course a certain amount of lying done by me (the shooter), all of which is plausible. I’m focusing on your definition of a “pure” weapon which rejects all other possible applications. There are very few “pure” weapons a civilian can get hold of. > > Aside from the dolt in the firing range, there’s also the classic dress-as-a-moose-and-walk-in-the-woods-during-hunting-season scenario. Same likely outcome: the shooter goes scott-free. Umm, sure. Good luck with that at your murder trial. To remind you again of what you originally said: > [@the\_diego](#): > > And as rejoinder to your two impractical scenarios, a dolt creeping around the target range (down range that is) is shot by me, intentionally. I doubt if I’ll be in greater trouble beyond having to sit out several days of questioning by an understanding policeman. If you honestly think police officers will be understanding of you when you intentionally murder another human being with the defense of “he was a dolt and shouldn’t have been there, so I had a right to kill him” you’re in for a real shock when you have to deal with reality. > [@bump](#): > > The thing with the gun control advocates is that their appeal is primarily based in emotion. Not all of them are appealing to emotion, but a great many do- saying that an AR-15 is a “weapon” and “designed to kill” are statements intended to appeal to emotions and fear, rather than logic and common sense. I’ve read a great many bizarre ideas that were clearly not based on reason or logic here at the SDMB, but this idea that firearms are not weapons, that ‘weapon’ is an emotionally loaded term and ‘firearm’ is not has to be one of the most bizarre. A firearm is a weapon, full stop. This has fuck-all to do with one’s position on gun control or appealing to emotion. It has to do with the actual meaning of words in the English language. Find me one definition of the word firearm that doesn’t describe it as a weapon and isn’t a “there’s glory for you” definition ala **smiling bandit** who has admitted repeatedly that he doesn’t care what the actual definition of either word is in the English language and prefers “When I use a word,” Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, “it means just what I choose it to mean—neither more nor less.” ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2013, 10:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-war-on-guns/669101/95 "2013-09-19T10:51:05Z")
So has Fox News made any mistakes regarding the shooter’s armaments? Just curious, with no intent to excuse shoddy reporting from other sources. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2013, 11:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-war-on-guns/669101/96 "2013-09-19T11:05:11Z")
You guys need to realize that when the primary thrust of your argument is a childish and ridiculous semantic game, it makes it seem that you have no argument. ---
**Author:** ![Kable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed655f/32.png) [@Kable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kable)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2013, 12:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-war-on-guns/669101/97 "2013-09-19T12:43:44Z")
> [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > You guys need to realize that when the primary thrust of your argument is a childish and ridiculous semantic game, it makes it seem that you have no argument. I thought the primary thrust of the argument was the shooter used a Biden approved 12 gauge shotgun… [![](https://img.youtube.com/vi/A0IVSGctQIg/hqdefault.jpg "Women Take Biden's Shotgun Advice") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A0IVSGctQIg) …but that the gun-grabbers still blamed the shooting on the evil AR15 because that better fit their agenda. ---
**Author:** ![Longshanks](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e480ec/32.png) [@Longshanks](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Longshanks)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2013, 12:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-war-on-guns/669101/98 "2013-09-19T12:52:25Z")
Same shit, different day. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2013, 1:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-war-on-guns/669101/99 "2013-09-19T13:37:22Z")
> [@Kable](#): > > I thought the primary thrust of the argument was the shooter used a Biden approved 12 gauge shotgun… > > [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A0IVSGctQIg](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A0IVSGctQIg) > > …but that the gun-grabbers still blamed the shooting on the evil AR15 because that better fit their agenda. Exactly. A Remington 870 is probably the most common shotgun in America. It’s used by hunters _everywhere_. You can’t conceive of a much more bland, boring “Fudd” gun. It’s the exact opposite of an evil, scary “assault weapon”. As Kable noted, even Joe Biden thinks shotguns like the Remington 870 are great. Still, just like Cho using a Walther P-22 at Virginia Tech, it’s very possible to kill a lot of people quickly with one. Rather than let this truth be told and risk undermining their “assault weapons are evil” argument, the media seems intent on misleading people to believe that the shooter used an AR-15. ---
**Author:** ![Esox\_Lucius](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/848f3c/32.png) [@Esox\_Lucius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Esox_Lucius)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2013, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-war-on-guns/669101/100 "2013-09-19T15:39:58Z")
I’m a gun control advocate, and I don’t get the fixation on the AR-15 either. I think because it looks like the kind of gun popularized in movies, and used in real life by real soldiers, as an assault rifle, it’s perceived as scarier, but in practice, any gun can kill people whether it’s an AR-15, a shotgun or a handgun. I think they should all be controlled.😃 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-war-on-guns/669101.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-war-on-guns/669101.md?page=6)