# The War On Stupid People **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 20, 2016, 1:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-war-on-stupid-people/763410 "2016-08-20T13:25:55Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2016, 5:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-war-on-stupid-people/763410/81 "2016-09-06T05:19:11Z")
> [@Chihuahua](#): > > I think we are really just discussing the problem of overpopulation. I suspect a huge number of our present economic problems, and even political problems, really are due to population growth. A society that’s got a place for 150 million persons doesn’t necessarily expand to fit 400 million. ---
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2016, 6:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-war-on-stupid-people/763410/82 "2016-09-06T06:14:18Z")
> [@foolsguinea](#): > > I suspect a huge number of our present economic problems, and even political problems, really are due to population growth. A society that’s got a place for 150 million persons doesn’t necessarily expand to fit 400 million. Why not? Because of economies of scale? If 400 million people can provide for 400 million people easier than 150 million people can provide for 150 million people, that’s a _good_ thing. The solution is not make-work programs, it’s acknowledging that we’ve grown so efficient that we don’t need everyone to hold a productive job just to keep society afloat, so we might as well put some of that surplus production into letting people not work (or work shorter hours). ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2016, 6:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-war-on-stupid-people/763410/83 "2016-09-06T06:31:43Z")
Heck, I’ve been to university _and_ trade school. Now I have to go back to university to get a certificate to teach trade school. It’s a winding path. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2016, 11:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-war-on-stupid-people/763410/84 "2016-09-06T11:18:50Z")
It has nothing to do with “college vs trade school”. As a society, we (some of us) are getting smarter, more technologically advanced and more complex. We have more information available to address problems and more and better ways to quickly analyze it to make decisions. Yes, back in the old days, getting a job, even one in a senior leadership position, was largely a function of who you knew and just having the right character traits to get hired. Well, the world has become too complex and is changing too rapidly for the people who lead it to actually manage it effectively. That is a large reason for the rise of the educated, technical professional class. Little Brains find it harder to compete. Their methods of relying on “tradition”, “gut instinct”, “relationships” and “hard work” are no match for decision-making that relies on data generated from around the world and analyzed in seconds. ---
**Author:** ![up\_the\_junction](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/f1d935/32.png) [@up\_the\_junction](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/up_the_junction)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2016, 11:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-war-on-stupid-people/763410/85 "2016-09-06T11:55:32Z")
I can get whole boroughs to change decades old policy but my emotional intelligence …I wouldn’t get int college. Not great with personal finance, either. But give me an issue and a room of local politicians … ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2016, 12:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-war-on-stupid-people/763410/86 "2016-09-06T12:46:18Z")
> [@Sitnam](#): > > A reoccurring theme Mike Rowe brings up in his show _Dirty Jobs_ is the people he works with are not stupid and destitute, but good hardworking people making an honest living and yet our society generally looks down on them. I didn’t use to be that way, he states. I think there is some truth to that. I think modern American’s generally do look down on ‘simple folk’. Coming from blue collar trade roots is a badge of honor for politicians and rags-to-riches Cinderella stories, but it’s ‘making something of yourself’ and getting out of that occupation that’s the proud part. I live this life. My job, until fairly recently, gave me the opportunity to work with people in all walks of life and across all industries; one day I’d be taking to a guy working as a machinist, the next I’d be talking to an engineer. I recently changed jobs to a place where most people have master’s degree in life sciences and many are doctors. The difference in the intellectual brainpower I perceive between people in different walks of life is really not that vast. The engineers might, on average, be a bit more brainy than the laborers, but not always and there’s a lot of overlap. The reason a person is in one job and not the other often has little to do with their IQ and a lot more to do with the circumstances of their life and upbringing. A person working on the assembly line who just got here from Vietnam two years ago is working there because\* that’s what he can get\*, not because he’s stupid. Are there issues with pushing kids into university who shouldn’t be there? Sure there are, but I’m not convinced that has a lot to do with IQ. It doesn’t really take a lot of intelligence to get a university degree, as evidenced by the fact that I have one. We ARE definitely pumping out far, far too many kids with utterly worthless degrees like political science, and we have too few plumbers and roofers, but these are problems with the incentives we’ve chosen to create. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2016, 1:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-war-on-stupid-people/763410/87 "2016-09-06T13:27:26Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > Are there issues with pushing kids into university who shouldn’t be there? Sure there are, but I’m not convinced that has a lot to do with IQ. It doesn’t really take a lot of intelligence to get a university degree, as evidenced by the fact that I have one. We ARE definitely pumping out far, far too many kids with utterly worthless degrees like political science, and we have too few plumbers and roofers, but these are problems with the incentives we’ve chosen to create. The reason we push kids into university is because a college degree gives you a much greater chance of accessing jobs that eventually pay six, even seven figures. And we generally believe that having an education has value in and of itself, even if they decide to become a plumber or roofer. Saying “there are too many kids going to college”, sounds like a sort of blue collar, working-class anti-intellectualism to me. There’s no “one size fits all” answer to figuring out a career. The fact is, most people would generally rather own the big house and fancy car than be the guy who builds and fixes them. If you live in or around New York or San Francisco, where there is a large concentration of collect-educated affluent households, cost of living becomes a major problem. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2016, 2:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-war-on-stupid-people/763410/88 "2016-09-06T14:31:46Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > The reason we push kids into university is because a college degree gives you a much greater chance of accessing jobs that eventually pay six, even seven figures. The number of people making seven figures is trivially small in the grand scheme of things. As to making six figures, that’s great, but “pushing kids into university” is too generic a term to mean anything. If your kid is going to medical school, yes, they’re going to do well. If they are getting a degree in medieval history, [I hope they know how food stamps work.](http://www.chronicle.com/article/From-Graduate-School-to/131795/) “Going to university” is a near-meaningless generic phrase that includes many smart decisions and many stupid ones. > [@](#): > > The fact is, most people would generally rather own the big house and fancy car than be the guy who builds and fixes them. Why can’t you be both? Believe me; I’ve dealt with contractors recently, and the successful ones drive nicer cars than I do. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2016, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-war-on-stupid-people/763410/89 "2016-09-06T17:29:46Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > The number of people making seven figures is trivially small in the grand scheme of things. > > As to making six figures, that’s great, but “pushing kids into university” is too generic a term to mean anything. If your kid is going to medical school, yes, they’re going to do well. If they are getting a degree in medieval history, [I hope they know how food stamps work.](http://www.chronicle.com/article/From-Graduate-School-to/131795/) “Going to university” is a near-meaningless generic phrase that includes many smart decisions and many stupid ones. > Why can’t you be both? Believe me; I’ve dealt with contractors recently, and the successful ones drive nicer cars than I do. I don’t doubt that. I think one of the downsides of formal education is that it conditions people to follow a very rigid career path. One that mirrors the structured levels and formal advancement one finds in institutionalized learning. It often doesn’t prepare you for having to take a different career path, either by choice or if your particular career path gets derailed. ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2016, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-war-on-stupid-people/763410/90 "2016-09-06T17:37:27Z")
You don’t have to be smart to get ahead, just skeptical, open-minded, and willing to do the hard work of critical thinking and research rather than just believing in whatever bullshit the prettiest people tell you. ---
**Author:** ![Whiskey\_Dickens](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/9fc348/32.png) [@Whiskey\_Dickens](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whiskey_Dickens)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2016, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-war-on-stupid-people/763410/91 "2016-09-06T18:31:46Z")
> [@Fretful\_Porpentine](#): > > As a professor at a **not-especially-selective state university** , I think this is a real and growing problem (although I’m not a big fan of the use of the word “stupid” in this context). I see a _lot_ of young people who are not especially academically inclined, and in some cases may not be capable of doing college-level work at all, but who feel like they have to get the degree because they believe (often accurately) that they won’t be able to get a job that pays a living wage without it. A few of them end up being a good fit in programs like culinary arts, but a lot more of them drop out with nothing but debt and a handful of C-range grades in miscellaneous subjects to show for their efforts. Sounds like my alma mater (if I hadn’t dropped out with a handful of C-grades, etc etc)! Does the university’s initials rhyme with “you are high?” ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2016, 11:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-war-on-stupid-people/763410/92 "2016-09-06T23:01:06Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > The reason we push kids into university is because a college degree gives you a much greater chance of accessing jobs that eventually pay six, even seven figures. And we generally believe that having an education has value in and of itself, even if they decide to become a plumber or roofer. > > Saying “there are too many kids going to college”, sounds like a sort of blue collar, working-class anti-intellectualism to me. > > There’s no “one size fits all” answer to figuring out a career. Do parents push their kids to go to college so they can make six figures? Or do they push their kids to go to college because that’s what “everyone” does? I seriously doubt that most parents who send their kids to State University or University of State–the kind of university that MOST college students graduate from–necessarily think their future [elementary school teacher, journalist, or accountant](http://college.usatoday.com/2014/10/26/same-as-it-ever-was-top-10-most-popular-college-majors/) is going to be making six figures. Or maybe there are a whole bunch of disappointed parents out there that I’ve never encountered? > [@](#): > > The fact is, most people would generally rather own the big house and fancy car than be the guy who builds and fixes them. If you live in or around New York or San Francisco, where there is a large concentration of collect-educated affluent households, cost of living becomes a major problem. I actually think a lot of young people don’t know what they want other than what their parents (and dudes on the internet) tell them they _should_ want. Their parents may have esteemed high status and big salaries. But job security seems to be what many [Millennials](https://theconversation.com/young-people-are-not-after-an-easy-ride-just-job-security-64494) want. I gotta wonder how many folks pouring coffee at Starbucks while secretly regretting their expensive college degrees would have latched onto vocational training if only their parents hadn’t framed that route as something better suited for anti-intellectual types. ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2016, 11:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-war-on-stupid-people/763410/93 "2016-09-06T23:23:16Z")
Another truism to put onto the list. . . . 4. Never get involved in a land war in Asia. 5. Never go to war with the stupid, especially not all of them at once. . . . ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2016, 11:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-war-on-stupid-people/763410/94 "2016-09-06T23:26:17Z")
I think the reason that low intelligence is so reviled is because it is, well, universally reviled. People of a particular race may be found attractive by some people. People who are fat may be found attractive by some people. But I am aware of no culture, society or country on Earth in which being stupid is a desirable, sought-after thing. Hence, stupid-shaming has a long way to go before or if it is considered the same as racism or fat-shaming. ---
**Author:** ![Count\_Blucher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c5a1d2/32.png) [@Count\_Blucher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Count_Blucher)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2016, 11:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-war-on-stupid-people/763410/95 "2016-09-06T23:39:53Z")
Damn Neanderthals killed off ‘Sliders’ too. ---
**Author:** ![Fretful\_Porpentine](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fretful_porpentine/32/2873_2.png) [@Fretful\_Porpentine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fretful_Porpentine)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2016, 12:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-war-on-stupid-people/763410/96 "2016-09-07T00:40:22Z")
> [@Whiskey\_Dickens](#): > > Sounds like my alma mater (if I hadn’t dropped out with a handful of C-grades, etc etc)! Does the university’s initials rhyme with “you are high?” Nope. I think it’s safe to say that there are a LOT of schools out there fitting that description, far more than there are selective universities. ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2016, 3:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-war-on-stupid-people/763410/97 "2016-09-07T03:13:06Z")
> [@Grumman](#): > > Why not? Because of economies of scale? If 400 million people can provide for 400 million people easier than 150 million people can provide for 150 million people, that’s a _good_ thing. The solution is not make-work programs, it’s acknowledging that we’ve grown so efficient that we don’t need everyone to hold a productive job just to keep society afloat, so we might as well put some of that surplus production into letting people not work (or work shorter hours). What? OK, we’re talking past each other. Contrary to Marx, we don’t live in a world made by human hands. Contrary to Mao, human hands do not hold up the sky. Population growth led to economic growth while there was land to grow into and fresh water to exploit. We have hit limits on fresh water, as seen in the Western USA, and the present refugee crisis implies that there’s not that much land left to go off and be a dirt farmer, or at least not in reach for most people. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2016, 4:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-war-on-stupid-people/763410/98 "2016-09-07T04:42:16Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > Do parents push their kids to go to college so they can make six figures? Or do they push their kids to go to college because that’s what “everyone” does? I seriously doubt that most parents who send their kids to State University or University of State–the kind of university that MOST college students graduate from–necessarily think their future [elementary school teacher, journalist, or accountant](http://college.usatoday.com/2014/10/26/same-as-it-ever-was-top-10-most-popular-college-majors/) is going to be making six figures. Or maybe there are a whole bunch of disappointed parents out there that I’ve never encountered? Maybe not six figures, but certainly better options than not going to college. Teacher, journalist and accountant are largely regarded as a bit more prestigious than roofer. A college degree is often the difference between being a barista or bartender temporarily and retiring as one. ---
**Author:** ![doreen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/858c86/32.png) [@doreen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doreen)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2016, 11:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-war-on-stupid-people/763410/99 "2016-09-07T11:33:19Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > Maybe not six figures, but certainly better options than not going to college. Teacher, journalist and accountant are largely regarded as a bit more prestigious than roofer. A college degree is often the difference between being a barista or bartender temporarily and retiring as one. It can be, but so can being trained as an electrician or a plumber or an auto mechanic. It’s not uncommon to see someone with a college degree working as a barista or in retail, but I’ve never known someone trained as an electrician or plumber who had to do that. There’s certainly not a “one size fits all” when it comes to choosing a career, or probably even a “one size fits most” but some parents push “large” on their kids even when “medium” or “small” would be a better fit. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2016, 11:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-war-on-stupid-people/763410/100 "2016-09-07T11:45:11Z")
> [@Fretful\_Porpentine](#): > > As a professor at a not-especially-selective state university, I think this is a real and growing problem (although I’m not a big fan of the use of the word “stupid” in this context). I see a _lot_ of young people who are not especially academically inclined, and in some cases may not be capable of doing college-level work … in programs like culinary arts, but a lot more of them drop out with nothing but debt and a handful of C-range grades in miscellaneous subjects to show for their efforts. Perhaps one of the things that needs to be done is have clearer “tracks”. The US system emphasizes choice so heavily that it’s easy for a student to get lost. At the same time, my own experience has been that a lot of the choice offered… wasn’t, but that may have been an artifact of that particular school and/or time (our credits from other areas had to be approved, and to be approved they needed to have been requested by two people, never mind what the subject actually was). Also, I don’t expect to see cooking schools and plumbing schools get separated back but that happens to be an example of the many, many things which in the US get taught professionally in college, yet if all your contact with college is media (as it often is for the poor) you’ll never realize those are possible fields of study. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-war-on-stupid-people/763410.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-war-on-stupid-people/763410.md?page=6)