# The war on The War On the war on Christmas **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 30, 2008, 9:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-war-on-the-war-on-the-war-on-christmas/475093 "2008-11-30T21:06:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Tapioca\_Dextrin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Tapioca\_Dextrin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tapioca_Dextrin)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2008, 10:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-war-on-the-war-on-the-war-on-christmas/475093/21 "2008-12-01T10:14:30Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > I blame Obama. Because as we all know, [Muslims never celebrate Christmas](http://www.goworldtravel.com/ex/aspx/articleGuid.b42ca5c3-099c-46e6-bd3e-f308daf35d4d/xe/article.htm) 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Lust4Life](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ecc23a/32.png) [@Lust4Life](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lust4Life)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2008, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-war-on-the-war-on-the-war-on-christmas/475093/22 "2008-12-01T15:23:53Z")
Whether you are a religious believer or an athiest it would be nice if some of the crass comercialism was taken out of Christmas.At the moment the sole beneficiaries of the holiday appear to be businesses. The hype seems to start earlier each year and the objective appears to be to make as many people as possible spend money that they cant really afford to buy the love of relatives,or to avoid offending friends. Rather then spreading happiness and bonding this event appears to make many families argumentative and stressed. At present a more apt name for the festival would be Greedmas or perhaps Gulliblemas. I’ll make my declarations here,this could well be sour grapes on my part as my family are virtually all deceased so it might be a case of subconscious envy but if it is I’ve done a good job of kidding myself. ---
**Author:** ![42fish](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/4/b487fb/32.png) [@42fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/42fish)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2008, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-war-on-the-war-on-the-war-on-christmas/475093/23 "2008-12-01T15:32:56Z")
> [@Beware\_of\_Doug](#): > > _ **seasons greetings asshats** _ Featured in Hallmark’s “Least Successful Cards Ever” Line ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2008, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-war-on-the-war-on-the-war-on-christmas/475093/24 "2008-12-01T15:38:48Z")
> [@Derleth](#): > > Now available at Sharper Image! Nope, [not anymore.](http://news.cnet.com/8301-10784_3-9956802-7.html) ---
**Author:** ![guizot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guizot/32/3636_2.png) [@guizot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/guizot)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2008, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-war-on-the-war-on-the-war-on-christmas/475093/25 "2008-12-01T15:45:12Z")
> [@Lust4Life](#): > > Rather then spreading happiness and bonding this event appears to make many families argumentative and stressed. I agree completely, and I would add the questions: Why should we spread happiness and bond only at one time a year? Why not all year round? ---
**Author:** ![Jack\_Batty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jack_batty/32/3201_2.png) [@Jack\_Batty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jack_Batty)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2008, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-war-on-the-war-on-the-war-on-christmas/475093/26 "2008-12-01T16:00:06Z")
I mentioned that phenomenon somewhere before … I think my own LJ … something along the lines of: “At this time of year, family means so much.” Right. Every other month – fuck 'em. Why, we can’t have any family bonding or quality time together unless it’s marked down on in italics on your calendar by the fine folks at Hallmark. Personally, I would love to see the crass comercialism removed from Christmas, because if that happened, for me, it would be nothing but a day off from work. Christmas, obviously, holds zero religious meaning to me whatsoever. I’d even venture to say that 90% of your general hard-core Christian’s time is spent more on commercialism than religion on any given Christmas week. Which is why I get doubly annoyed when I hear the “War on Christmas” arguments. If it’s such a solemn religious holiday for you (the royal you) then there’s no need for evergreens in your living room, socks nailed to you fireplace or 40,000 light bulbs on your eaves. ---
**Author:** ![Baldwin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/baldwin/32/7264_2.png) [@Baldwin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baldwin)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2008, 4:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-war-on-the-war-on-the-war-on-christmas/475093/27 "2008-12-01T16:04:30Z")
> [@Sublight](#): > > Just a note for people too lazy to click the link, the quoted text is from the editorial section of the Wall Street Journal, not Mother Jones. Those two publications are so similar, it’s easy to get them mixed up. Okay, maybe not. Even if there were a concerted effort to suppress public Christmas stuff, which there isn’t – how does that impinge on a Christian’s observance of it as a religious holiday? Doesn’t the actual Christian observance consist of Mass or a church service, along with whatever else people do in their own homes? That’s got nothing to do with wanting retail clerks to chirp “Merry Christmas!” ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2008, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-war-on-the-war-on-the-war-on-christmas/475093/28 "2008-12-01T16:16:31Z")
The War on Christmas rhetoric can go way too far at times - but I think people are mistaken when they say there are no issues or problems there. Already this season Florida Gulf Coast University made the news by attempting to ban Christmas displays in common areas - this decision was promptly reversed after a massive public backlash. Frankly, a university ought to be welcoming to traditions of many kinds and use these as teaching tools - keeping them out of the commons does not accomplish this goal. A similar thing can be said about “holiday trees” - thankfully a euphemism that seems to be receding as few people except some risk-averse bureaucrats call the trees anything but what they are. This strips the symbol of all meaning and history - and even if we disagree with these traditions and beliefs, we should allow that they exist and permit their commemoration in the public square to an appropriate degree. The alternative is an overly policed and censored university commons or town square - I don’t think that benefits any tradition or belief, least of all the atheist one. ---
**Author:** ![Defensive\_Indifference](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/defensive_indifference/32/6502_2.png) [@Defensive\_Indifference](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Defensive_Indifference)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2008, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-war-on-the-war-on-the-war-on-christmas/475093/29 "2008-12-01T16:23:04Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > I agree. I have not seen any War on Christmas-themed news stories this year and I have not even seen anybody Pitting Hannity, O’Reilly, or anybody else about using any of that rhetoric. It’s a moronic idea but so far, it looks like a lot of people finally got over that crap this year. I’m not sure. I think it’s just too early. I just did a slapdash search of the NY Times archives, and it looks like December is the prime campaigning month for the War on Christmas. There are references to WoC and related topics throughout the year, but the Thanksgiving-to-Christmas period is always the most active. Most cities and such probably don’t put up their displays until after Thanksgiving, so I’m sure the rhetoric will start flying in the next couple of weeks. ---
**Author:** ![sqweels](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f19dbf/32.png) [@sqweels](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sqweels)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2008, 11:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-war-on-the-war-on-the-war-on-christmas/475093/30 "2008-12-01T23:28:30Z")
> [@Mr.Moto](#): > > The War on Christmas rhetoric can go way too far at times - but I think people are mistaken when they say there are no issues or problems there. Already this season Florida Gulf Coast University made the news by attempting to ban Christmas displays in common areas - this decision was promptly reversed after a massive public backlash. Of course, it makes a difference whether the displays consist of just the pagan-cum-secular symbols or include religious symbols. > [@](#): > > A similar thing can be said about “holiday trees” - thankfully a euphemism that seems to be receding as few people except some risk-averse bureaucrats call the trees anything but what they are. Of course you realize that they are _not_ actually “Christmas” trees. It’s far more accurate to call them Yule trees. > [@](#): > > This strips the symbol of all meaning and history - and even if we disagree with these traditions and beliefs, we should allow that they exist and permit their commemoration in the public square to an appropriate degree. > > The alternative is an overly policed and censored university commons or town square - I don’t think that benefits any tradition or belief, least of all the atheist one. But you’re being a bit vague as to whether your talking about solstice/saturnalia/yule oriented traditions and birth-of Jesus oriented traditions. I’m trying to emphasize the distinctions between the 2 and that the former are appropriate for everybody while the latter are more appropriate for private religious settings. ---
**Author:** ![Siege](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dbc845/32.png) [@Siege](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siege)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2008, 12:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-war-on-the-war-on-the-war-on-christmas/475093/31 "2008-12-02T00:05:18Z")
> [@Bayard](#): > > I’m not sure. I think it’s just too early. I just did a slapdash search of the NY Times archives, and it looks like December is the prime campaigning month for the War on Christmas. There are references to WoC and related topics throughout the year, but the Thanksgiving-to-Christmas period is always the most active. Most cities and such probably don’t put up their displays until after Thanksgiving, so I’m sure the rhetoric will start flying in the next couple of weeks. I’m with you. I was just thinking that now that December and Advent are here, we’re about due for the complaints about people taking the Christ out of Christmas. I don’t think I’ve seen anyone do it before Thanksgiving. My inward response to people who make a lot of noise about putting Christ back in Christmas is a bemused “Some of us never took Him out.” 😕 If a person feels a lack of Christian spirit, perhaps the problem isn’t with what he’s hearing but what he’s doing. How one keeps Christmas, Hannukah, Yule, New Year’s, or any other holiday, regardless of when it falls or what tradition it’s from, is something one decides for oneself and we all choose what to emphasize. I think it’s disengenous to blame others if one gets caught up in commercialism. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2008, 1:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-war-on-the-war-on-the-war-on-christmas/475093/32 "2008-12-02T01:44:12Z")
> [@sqweels](#): > > Of course you realize that they are _not_ actually “Christmas” trees. It’s far more accurate to call them Yule trees. Is that a biological term? Because unless you can test for Yule DNA, it oughtta be judged on cultural grounds. And I’d bet good money that the majority of people who purchase cut trees to decorate their houses in December couldn’t define Yule for you, and that 95%+ of them consider what they’ve purchased to be a Christmas tree. They’ve got no intrinsic holiday magic; they only have the symbolic power attributed to them by the folks around them. And the folks around them attribute them with Christmas symbolism for the most part, not Yule symbolism. Daniel ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2008, 2:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-war-on-the-war-on-the-war-on-christmas/475093/33 "2008-12-02T02:01:47Z")
> [@sqweels](#): > > Of course you realize that they are _not_ actually “Christmas” trees. It’s far more accurate to call them Yule trees. You are aware, I’m sure, that those countries that traditionally celebrated Yule incorporated these traditions into Christmas - and when they reached our shores their association with a pagan Yule was essentially nonexistent. Now, a subsequent reclaiming of these traditions by neopagans and others is certainly legitimate if this is your belief structure. That does not at all change the fact that to most people these trees are Christmas trees - indeed, most atheists of my acquaintance refer to them as such. Whether Christmas tree or Yule tree, though, they are not “holiday trees” - that term is alien to any belief structure. And while I’m sure people who referred to the trees as such were trying to be inclusive - by stripping out terms save a bureaucratic one that appealed to no one they hardly were including anything - they were excluding everything save their sanitized and censored terminology. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2008, 3:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-war-on-the-war-on-the-war-on-christmas/475093/34 "2008-12-02T03:20:59Z")
The symbolism associated with decorated pine trees hasn’t changed one whit: They’ve brought their own symbolism with them. Unless you’d care to explain just what a pine tree has to do with the birth of Jesus? ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2008, 3:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-war-on-the-war-on-the-war-on-christmas/475093/35 "2008-12-02T03:33:40Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > The symbolism associated with decorated pine trees hasn’t changed one whit: They’ve brought their own symbolism with them. Unless you’d care to explain just what a pine tree has to do with the birth of Jesus? Gee, I don’t know. Bread and wine could be a rustic meal in the countryside or the centerpiece of an elaborate ritual at the Vatican. Now, this cannot occur because the symbols bring their symbolism with them - it happens because they are intimately associated with culture and belief and religion and tradition. Trying to separate this is unnatural. ---
**Author:** ![sqweels](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f19dbf/32.png) [@sqweels](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sqweels)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2008, 4:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-war-on-the-war-on-the-war-on-christmas/475093/36 "2008-12-02T04:07:13Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Is that a biological term? Because unless you can test for Yule DNA, it oughtta be judged on cultural grounds. And I’d bet good money that the majority of people who purchase cut trees to decorate their houses in December couldn’t define Yule for you, and that 95%+ of them consider what they’ve purchased to be a Christmas tree. Even people in Scandinavian countries whose words for “Christmas” are variations on the word “Yule”? > [@](#): > > They’ve got no intrinsic holiday magic; they only have the symbolic power attributed to them by the folks around them. And the folks around them attribute them with Christmas symbolism for the most part, not Yule symbolism. That’s because they’ve been fooled. That’s why Christmas was scheduled on Dec. 25th–to fool people. And anyway, “tannenbaums” and other evergreen decorations obviously have nothing to do with Christianity and lots to do with the fact that it’s the winter solstice season and the longest nights of the year. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2008, 4:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-war-on-the-war-on-the-war-on-christmas/475093/37 "2008-12-02T04:25:50Z")
> [@sqweels](#): > > Even people in Scandinavian countries whose words for “Christmas” are variations on the word “Yule”? Tell me - what do you think that word means to most Scandinavians? Does it have much of a pagan ring to it - or is that sufficiently long ago that it has been lost to the collective memory apart from some customs deliberately kept alive by the Christians? Now, neopaganism and Wicca and other movements have been trying to reclaim Yule for themselves - which is fine, but it does not impact how most people experience the holiday season - including most of those that call Christmas Yule. ---
**Author:** ![sqweels](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f19dbf/32.png) [@sqweels](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sqweels)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2008, 4:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-war-on-the-war-on-the-war-on-christmas/475093/38 "2008-12-02T04:50:43Z")
> [@Mr.Moto](#): > > You are aware, I’m sure, that those countries that traditionally celebrated Yule incorporated these traditions into Christmas - and when they reached our shores their association with a pagan Yule was essentially nonexistent. You’ve got it backwards. Christmas was incorporated into Yule. And at least the early New England understood the pagan associations of “Christmas” well enough to ban observances of the holiday. > [@](#): > > Now, a subsequent reclaiming of these traditions by neopagans and others is certainly legitimate if this is your belief structure. That does not at all change the fact that to most people these trees are Christmas trees - indeed, most atheists of my acquaintance refer to them as such. Of course it doesn’t matter what we _call_ them. Just so long as it’s understood that they’re not part of the Christian religion and non-Christians are free to display them (or not, of course) without being guilty of observing someone else’s religion. And as for the pagan angle, I think by now we should be able to agree that that was once pagan is now secular. Just like with Halloween. > [@](#): > > Whether Christmas tree or Yule tree, though, they are not “holiday trees” - that term is alien to any belief structure. Belief schmief. The purpose of tannenbaums–and all the other trappings–is to brighten up what would otherwise be a dark and gloomy time of year. And “holiday” refers to the entire _season_ from Thanksgiving thru New Years during which they are displayed. There’s a lot more going on than just Christ Mass. > [@](#): > > And while I’m sure people who referred to the trees as such were trying to be inclusive - by stripping out terms save a bureaucratic one that appealed to no one they hardly were including anything - they were excluding everything save their sanitized and censored terminology. It’s a pity that we have to get hung up on terminology. I’m perfectly comfortable with the word “Christmas”, just so long as it’s understood that it doesn’t necessarily have anything to do with religion. ---
**Author:** ![sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2008, 5:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-war-on-the-war-on-the-war-on-christmas/475093/39 "2008-12-02T05:17:08Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > I find it amusing that O’Reilly admitted last year or the year before that there was no “war on Christmas” and I have seen no mention of any “war on Christmas” this year–until this thread. > > You folks appear to be fighting a war you’ve already won. Wahassa matter? You afraid you won’t have any fights this year? Running out of wars is a bitch. With the war on drugs and the war on poverty already won and the war in Iraq winding down, we have to resort to imaginary wars like the war on Christmas and the war on Terror. We need to invent some new wars. I would propose the war on undercooked pasta. I hate undercooked pasta. ---
**Author:** ![sqweels](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f19dbf/32.png) [@sqweels](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sqweels)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2008, 5:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-war-on-the-war-on-the-war-on-christmas/475093/40 "2008-12-02T05:35:01Z")
> [@Mr.Moto](#): > > Tell me - what do you think that word means to most Scandinavians? Does it have much of a pagan ring to it - or is that sufficiently long ago that it has been lost to the collective memory apart from some customs deliberately kept alive by the Christians? Well, baseball was deliberately kept alive by Christians, that doesn’t make it exclusively Christian. I mean c’mon, man, we’ve been through this time and time again. It’s the _popularity_ of winter solstice season celebrations that have kept them alive despite periodic attempts by Christian authorities to suppress them. > [@](#): > > Now, neopaganism and Wicca and other movements have been trying to reclaim Yule for themselves - which is fine, but it does not impact how most people experience the holiday season - including most of those that call Christmas Yule. Most people celebrate the holiday season with red and green decorations, shopping and gift giving, sweets, family gatherings, and songs about Santa Claus. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-war-on-the-war-on-the-war-on-christmas/475093.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-war-on-the-war-on-the-war-on-christmas/475093.md?page=3)