# The war on The War On the war on Christmas **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 30, 2008, 9:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-war-on-the-war-on-the-war-on-christmas/475093 "2008-11-30T21:06:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![DMC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dmc/32/18049_2.png) [@DMC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DMC)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2008, 6:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-war-on-the-war-on-the-war-on-christmas/475093/41 "2008-12-02T06:28:46Z")
> [@Mr.Moto](#): > > Frankly, a university ought to be welcoming to traditions of many kinds and use these as teaching tools - keeping them out of the commons does not accomplish this goal. Oh bullshit. The university actually wanted to accomplish this, and planned on putting together a group of faculty, staff, and students to decide how best to do so for 2009, and learn about the traditions throughout the year, not just December. The university was also very explicit in allowing everyone to decorate their workspaces however they wanted. Common areas are just that, common. It was reversed because a bunch of whiney asses bitched loudly enough. ---
**Author:** ![DMC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dmc/32/18049_2.png) [@DMC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DMC)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2008, 6:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-war-on-the-war-on-the-war-on-christmas/475093/42 "2008-12-02T06:37:10Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > I find it amusing that O’Reilly admitted last year or the year before that there was no “war on Christmas” and I have seen no mention of any “war on Christmas” this year–until this thread. One of his current “Factor Headlines” is titled “War on Christmas comes to Long Island.” ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2008, 6:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-war-on-the-war-on-the-war-on-christmas/475093/43 "2008-12-02T06:52:27Z")
Quoth **Mr. Moto** : > [@](#): > > Gee, I don’t know. Bread and wine could be a rustic meal in the countryside or the centerpiece of an elaborate ritual at the Vatican. Now, this cannot occur because the symbols bring their symbolism with them - it happens because they are intimately associated with culture and belief and religion and tradition. Bread and wine are associated with Christianity because Jesus-- you know, the founder of the religion?-- hosted a very important meal of bread and wine. Tell me again what pine trees have to do with anything Christian? Did Jesus ever say, “Put up an evergreen tree in remembrance of me”? Did the magi bring gifts of gold, frankincense, and fir? Is there, in fact, any “Christmas” tradition associated with those trees, that isn’t identical to the Yule tradition associated with them? ---
**Author:** ![DMC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dmc/32/18049_2.png) [@DMC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DMC)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2008, 7:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-war-on-the-war-on-the-war-on-christmas/475093/44 "2008-12-02T07:07:52Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Is there, in fact, any “Christmas” tradition associated with those trees, that isn’t identical to the Yule tradition associated with them? I’m pretty sure the pagans didn’t [stick the tree up the butt of The Chosen One](http://christiandollarstore.stores.yahoo.net/jesdec.html), so there’s that. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2008, 12:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-war-on-the-war-on-the-war-on-christmas/475093/45 "2008-12-02T12:49:37Z")
Re the Christmas/Yule aside … Symbols can be subverted, traditions subsumed. Yes various local Winter Solstice celebrations were subverted and redefined as celebrations of Christ’s birth. The key there is that they were redefined. Their meaning _was_ changed. Has “Christmas” itself become so subverted as well? The claim of many is that “Christmas” no longer means a celebration of Christ’s birth but has been subsumed back into the more generalized meaning of Winter Solstice generosity, greed, gluttony, and goodwill … of whatever tradition. The irony is that those who to some extent cling to the meaning of Christmas as more specific than that generalized Winter Solstice celebration, not letting it go the way of the original meaning of “Yule” - subverted - are being defined as declaring war on it. Odd that. ---
**Author:** ![Bridget\_Burke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7cd45c/32.png) [@Bridget\_Burke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bridget_Burke)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2008, 2:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-war-on-the-war-on-the-war-on-christmas/475093/46 "2008-12-02T14:21:53Z")
The original War On Christmas was waged by the direct spiritual ancestors of our own [Religious Right](http://www.huffingtonpost.com/bruce-wilson/the-religious-rights-war_b_145751.html). The Pilgrim Fathers brought the campaign to these shores. They won a few battles–but those who wish to celebrate, for whatever reason, have won the war. Except for those who keep on fighting because they find the whole thing [funny](http://waroc.wordpress.com/holiday-posters-for-secular-athiests/). ---
**Author:** ![EddyTeddyFreddy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eddyteddyfreddy/32/18796_2.png) [@EddyTeddyFreddy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EddyTeddyFreddy)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2008, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-war-on-the-war-on-the-war-on-christmas/475093/47 "2008-12-02T15:57:49Z")
> [@Bridget\_Burke](#): > > Except for those who keep on fighting because they find the whole thing [funny](http://waroc.wordpress.com/holiday-posters-for-secular-athiests/). 😃 Thanks for that link; I’ve passed it on. Although it did break my prissy little heart to see “atheists” misspelled in the URL. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2008, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-war-on-the-war-on-the-war-on-christmas/475093/48 "2008-12-02T20:02:30Z")
What do you mean? They’re athier than anyone else, so they’re the athiest. Do you just have a problem with people who are more athy than you? ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2008, 1:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-war-on-the-war-on-the-war-on-christmas/475093/49 "2008-12-03T01:02:40Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Tell me again what pine trees have to do with anything Christian? Who says they’re Christian? I don’t say they’re Christian; I say they have to do with Christmas, at least for the overwhelming majority of people who put them up. Similarly, neither eggnog nor fruitcake was served at the mangerside, but both of them are accoutremens of Christmas for most folks that use them. **sqweels** , when your argument requires going to Scandinavian countries and speaking half-Norwegian (Yul) and half-English (tree), you’ve lost the argument. We’re not talking about words in other languages: “Yule tree” and “Christmas tree” are both English phrases. When you go on trying to analogize between Christians playing baseball and Christians celebrating Christmas, you’ve gone into locoland. Everything else in your posts appeared to be just the sort of fundamentalist claptrap that really annoys me, so I confess my eyes glazed over after a bit. Daniel ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2008, 1:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-war-on-the-war-on-the-war-on-christmas/475093/50 "2008-12-03T01:19:05Z")
This is about five years too late, but what about a Gulf War on Christmas? You know, [Shock](http://dixieugadawg.files.wordpress.com/2007/12/christmas-vacation.jpg) and [Awww.](http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x65/KaristonTheWolf/kitten.jpg) ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2008, 1:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-war-on-the-war-on-the-war-on-christmas/475093/51 "2008-12-03T01:24:06Z")
> [@](#): > > Who says they’re Christian? I don’t say they’re Christian; I say they have to do with Christmas, at least for the overwhelming majority of people who put them up. And if you take out all of the Christian parts of Christmas, what’s left is Yule. Not “inspired by”, not “co-opted from”; it’s exactly the same thing. ---
**Author:** ![Patty\_O\_Furniture](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/96bed5/32.png) [@Patty\_O\_Furniture](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Patty_O_Furniture)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2008, 1:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-war-on-the-war-on-the-war-on-christmas/475093/52 "2008-12-03T01:24:10Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > I find it amusing that O’Reilly admitted last year or the year before that there was no “war on Christmas” and I have seen no mention of any “war on Christmas” this year–until this thread. [Utah Legislature to the rescue!](http://www.sltrib.com/News/ci_11115527?source=rss) > [@](#): > > Sen. Chris Buttars wants Utah’s Legislature to declare its opposition to the “war on Christmas.” > > The West Jordan Republican is sponsoring a resolution encouraging retailers to embrace Christmas in their promotions rather than the generic “holidays.” ---
**Author:** ![Cervaise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cervaise/32/16693_2.png) [@Cervaise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cervaise)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2008, 1:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-war-on-the-war-on-the-war-on-christmas/475093/53 "2008-12-03T01:28:12Z")
> [@Mr.Moto](#): > > A similar thing can be said about “holiday trees” - thankfully a euphemism that seems to be receding as few people except some risk-averse bureaucrats call the trees anything but what they are. I call them “pre-trimmed crucifix material.” ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2008, 1:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-war-on-the-war-on-the-war-on-christmas/475093/54 "2008-12-03T01:37:12Z")
> [@Mr. Moto](#): > > A similar thing can be said about “holiday trees” - thankfully a euphemism that seems to be receding as few people except some risk-averse bureaucrats call the trees anything but what they are. They are whatever it is decided to call them. “Holiday trees” might (probably won’t, I agree) take off, just as “christmas tree” took off back when Christians began a campaign to start calling them that. There’s no more or less legitimacy to either one. There is no correct name for them in any absolute sense. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2008, 1:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-war-on-the-war-on-the-war-on-christmas/475093/55 "2008-12-03T13:23:28Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > And if you take out all of the Christian parts of Christmas, what’s left is Yule. Not “inspired by”, not “co-opted from”; it’s exactly the same thing. Yule was a secular exercise in spending and having family fights? ---
**Author:** ![guizot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guizot/32/3636_2.png) [@guizot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/guizot)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2008, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-war-on-the-war-on-the-war-on-christmas/475093/56 "2008-12-03T17:23:15Z")
When you put up a Christmas tree in your house, what exactly are you thinking? ---
**Author:** ![sqweels](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f19dbf/32.png) [@sqweels](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sqweels)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2008, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-war-on-the-war-on-the-war-on-christmas/475093/57 "2008-12-03T17:24:56Z")
> [@Princhester](#): > > They are whatever it is decided to call them. “Holiday trees” might (probably won’t, I agree) take off, just as “christmas tree” took off back when Christians began a campaign to start calling them that. There’s no more or less legitimacy to either one. There is no correct name for them in any absolute sense. Like I said earlier, it’s all just bickering over what words to use. People are acting as if the word “Christmas” falling out of favor amounts to the entire holiday season being eliminated. ---
**Author:** ![sqweels](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f19dbf/32.png) [@sqweels](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sqweels)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2008, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-war-on-the-war-on-the-war-on-christmas/475093/58 "2008-12-03T17:34:01Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > Yule was a secular exercise in spending and having family fights? Naturally, holidays, like cultures in general, evolve. There are the pre-Christian aspects, the specifically Christian aspects, and the modern aspects. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2008, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-war-on-the-war-on-the-war-on-christmas/475093/59 "2008-12-03T19:00:08Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > Yule was a secular exercise in spending and having family fights? That’s how we do it. 😃 But Yule wasn’t necessarily secular - I suspect it involved homage to or worship of other gods. From my outsider’s prospective, lots of Christianity involves pagan customs and beliefs adopted to make conversion less stressful. After all, aren’t saints responsible for things like sailors and towns that different from the minor gods responsible for the same things? If I were Christian I’d think that secularizing the parts of the holiday that have nothing to do with the birth of Jesus might be something I’d support. The term “Christmas” as used in stores is no more religious than the term “holiday”. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2008, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-war-on-the-war-on-the-war-on-christmas/475093/60 "2008-12-03T19:05:40Z")
> [@sqweels](#): > > Like I said earlier, it’s all just bickering over what words to use. People are acting as if the word “Christmas” falling out of favor amounts to the entire holiday season being eliminated. I haven’t noticed that. It seems to me that they think the true meaning of Christmas involves buying things for people. Or maybe they think that using Merry Christmas when a Jew or Hindu buys something will help to convert us. Or maybe they’re upset that the holiday that had evolved to Christians buying lots of stuff has become both Christians and non-Christians buying lots of stuff. Where I live, if non-Christians stopped going to stores during the holiday season, the stores would be in deep doo-doo. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-war-on-the-war-on-the-war-on-christmas/475093.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-war-on-the-war-on-the-war-on-christmas/475093.md?page=4)