The War (the documentary film by Ken Burns)

If you thought she was being callous, I wonder what your reaction would’ve been to a full-barrel blast of pro-nuke arguments by the veterans, most notably Paul Fussell, author of a book titled Thank God for the Atom Bomb (and Other Essays). I think the Mobile lady’s exultation reflected her conviction, which I share, that using the bomb as we did was responsible for Japan’s agreeing to surrender, thus ending the war and sparing the lives of hundreds of thousands of our men in uniform, your kin included.

I was surprised by how muted that aspect of the show was, regarding the A-bomb debate in the interviews, considering how heated the A-bomb debate has been in the past decade-plus. The whole thrust of the final program’s portrayal of the Pacific theater, and indeed the documentary series’ treatment of same, had the effect of pre-determining the outcome of the contemporary (and very PC) A-bomb debate and even nullifying the debate altogether, insofar as the program steadily emphasized the brutal human toll taken by the war, even for us Americans who suffered relatively few fatalities overall and with scant damage to our homeland when compared to the losses endured by our allies in the European theater. This tone was in keeping with Burns’ focus on the interviewees and a personal, sentimental presentation of the war.

With seemingly each step in the protracted Pacific campaign, the tolls per island just kept getting higher and higher, with Saipan and Okinawa introducing a new element of horror: the needless sacrificing of thousands of Japanese civilians (due both to the munitions and to their no-surrender principles).

After Okinawa, American military planners were in disagreement over just how deadly a conventional invasion of Japan’s home islands was likely to be, but one figure was of 500,000 American dead (with far more injured). If you ask me, that figure was a lowball number, if the Japanese were indeed prepared to resist as fiercely as they had on Okinawa, only enlisting the efforts of the women and children, as well.

Leaving aside all the military, economic, political, moral, and even humane arguments for using one or both nukes – and perhaps we’d better if we don’t want this thread to become another A-bomb debate thread – I understand why it seems the vast majority of Americans at the time simply embraced the bomb as a miraculous equalizer. The only way to wipe out Japan’s defensive home field advantage was to wipe out the home field, as it were. That it did, and it ended the war immediately, and at certainly at the time there didn’t seem to be any other conclusion to be drawn.

Second the rec for this book. (It’s actually the title essay in a book of essays, including criticisms of TGftAB and Fussell’s responses to said criticism.) Fussell is normally an acerbic and sarcastic social critic, and it was moving to see him so emotional in this doc. I’ve seen him in interviews about the A-bomb and he was just as broken up, talking about how he felt that every day he’s been alive since the war he owed to the bomb. He was convinced–with good reason–that he would die in the invasion of Japan, as would most other combat troops.

I missed the first hour–I had class. I hope to see it soon.

Random thoughts (I’m on my way to work):

Actually, I may not be awake enough right now, but all I can say is that my thoughts are jumbled. So much death and destruction. So much pain.

When Glenn Frazier said he fought his demon for 30 years…my mind jumped to the Vietnamn vets(and I’m sure the Gulf and Iraq wars, too). IMS, some if not many of the Vietnam vets were vilified by WW2 vets for being soft–for not just coming home and starting over. The counterargument has been that the Vietnam vets were not lauded upon return, they were reviled. None of this (although I know it’s true) makes much sense to me now–since the WW2 vets had as much trouble adjusting, you would think they would say to the Vietnam ones, I know-I was on Okinawa or Omaha beach. Or maybe they pushed those men away because they didn’t want to be reminded of their own demons?

I had to laugh somewhat sardonically when Sasha was relating her post war story. How the people would bitch about their coupons and gas rationing–and then ask her about her experience. I think she was right to call them stupid, but I think it is more that humans are so self centered at times–I hope at least a few people really listened to Sasha.
I found it ironic that Wawh lady said that those stories told by her neighbors were a way of healing. Perhaps they were, but I’ll bet they told the safe stories on those porches, not the truly grim, horror filled ones.

Too much to take in. I wish there was now a segment about how the War effected people’s thinking socio-politically. And how, after showing that they could indeed work “like” men, all the women were sidelined and forced into a narrow role. And the black men who returned–my God. How tragic. No wonder there was bitterness. I’d have had a hard time not decking the cop who told me to take my hat off…

I agree that the program was designed to focus on the personal narratives and not to continue the debate on the use of the A-bomb, nor do I want to start that discussion here. It just gave me a bit of a start to hear that little cackle or giggle she gave as she made that statement. I wasn’t sure I had heard it right but ended up watching the whole program again and yes, it was there. Maybe she made other comments that were edited out; I find myself trying to give her the benefit of the doubt. But at that time in the film, with the presentation of the deaths and injuries caused to the Japanese civilians and the pictures being shown, it was a bit horrifying to hear.

It’s not making a political point, it’s making a factual point. Most black men who went into the military wound up driving trucks, serving as stevedores, or serving as cooks. And most truck drivers during the war were black. From this site:

You were saying?

I am really enjoying this series, even if I have missed some of the episodes. What I can not understand is why Burns has used footage that has been used in every other WWII documentary (even in some Hollywood films!). I thought I remember reading that Burns had unprecedented access to the National Archives and other sources of film footage, and that much of the footage had never been seen, or had not been seen in decades. I dont think it degrades the power of the film overall, but it does prove to be a bit of a cliche at times when a piece of footage shows up (think the DDay landing, burning jeep being driven across screen, Pearl Harbor, Midway) that has been used in so many other films. Not a huge disapointment, but just an observation.

What about the 100,000 civilians the Japanese slaughtered on the Phillipines during their exit there? Not to mention the atrocities visited upon Chinese civilians or the POWs from allied countries.

What I came away with from watching this was just how fundamentally evil the Japanese military of the time were. The Nazis got a deservedly bad rap from their actions during the war, but I don’t think they had anything on the Japanese in the evil department. I also think that there was very little symapthy for the Japanese at the time. They started the shit and they demonstrated a total disregard for human life during the shit.

With regards to the atomic bomb, I think it was used as much to hasten the Japanese surrender before the Russians became involved with Japan as it was to reduce the number of American casualties in an invasion. Still, if you were an American serviceman who had seen his buddies decimated while trying to take miniscule pieces of inconsequential Pacific islands, the thought of landing on Japan itself must have seemed like certain suicide. The previous episode already laid out how the emperor had instructed even civilian women and children to fight to the death.

Hindsight is a wonderful thing. We can look back now and say that Japan was on the verge of surrender and would have folded like a house of cards if we just farted in their general direction, but look at how many times during this show that predictions based on the information of the time were just flat wrong. Look at how fanatically the Japanese continued to fight on other islands even after it had to be clear that defeat was certain. We had a weapon we felt could stop it all, right now. It did.

Sorry for getting off on the atomic bomb tangent, but it was a fairly significant player in the final days of the war, like it or not.

Remember what she had done just before their sinking. They delivered an important component of the atom bomb to Tinian. That counts as a very secret mission, so no “ordinary” dispatchers would be expecting them to arrive at any particular port at any specific time.

It is still tragic, but easy to see why no one knew to look for them.

The Indianapolis delivered the actual Little Boy atom bomb to Tinian, the self-same bomb dropped on Hiroshima. After dropping off the bomb, she proceeded to Guam to embark additional sailors, then was ordered to proceed directly to Leyte. Normal protocol would have the ship take a zig-zag course to avoid submarines, but it was incorrectly believed that there was no longer any threat from Japanese submarines. Regardless, the commander of the Japanese sub later testified, at the court martial of the Indianapolis’s captain, that zig-zagging would not have made any difference. In any event, no there were no communications with the ship because of aforementioned top secret mission delivering the atom bomb; her distress calls were disregarded as Japanese subterfuge. Furthermore, no one knew when they were expected to arrive in port, again because of the top secret mission. The survivors were only fortuitously sighted by a routine patrol flight.

Little sympathy? Try outright hatred. The Japanese, at the time, were considered"Yellow vermin." They were seen as subhuman and something that should be wiped out [http://bss.sfsu.edu/internment/postermurder.html]propaganda of the day.

Truth was Everybody in that War went to the lowest common denominator to win. While the Allies fought for principles of freedom and liberation they still would firebomb civillians, segregate their troops based on race, and intern their own civilians based on ethnicity and smallest of ties to Japan.

If you look at the Dresden and Tokyo civilian casualties it is horrifying. At the time, and now, both sides justified slaughtering people as part of Total War, but Total War is a savage horrible concept.

It is man at his cruelest and basest. Because we all justified the mass murder of innocents by proclaiming there were no innocents.

Now I’m not saying we were more wrong or that our actions are equal to The Rape of Nainking or the Holocaust, because they were not. But I feel we haven’t truly faced what we were back then. The soldiers who fought and came back knew. They saw it first hand.

It is that I think we’ve sentimentalized that war so much, due to the enemies greater cruelty, we forget we at times were just as savage in our attacks.

It was a brutal horrible time. We made brutal horrible decisions. Some saved us from further casualties and saved lives, but we can not pretend as if the war was fought in a pure and nobel fashion on our side.

I agree that the firebombing of cities was a pretty brutal way to wage war. The campaign against Dresden was mentioned in this documentary, a way to eliminate the factory workers contributing to the German war effort. Killed a lot of people who weren’t factory workers, but it was a strategic campaign.

The civilians slaughtered by the Japanese in the Philipines were simply killed in a scorched earth policy as the Japanese retreated. They were killed for no reason other than the Japanese wanted to inflict suffering.

Slight, but distinct, difference.

I recently saw another PBS show about the “Real Bridge Over the River Kwai”. Allied POWs were worked to death by the thousands by the Japanese.

There was a American POW camp holding Germans about 35 miles from where I live. People who live in the town remember the camp, it’s the location of the municipal airport today. None of the Germans interred there were worked to death.

Lowest common denominator? Hardly.

There is something in what you say,** Duke**. I think in a prior episode (frankly, all the Pacific islands are running together in my head-to think of so much blood for a small piece of volcanic rock boggles me-I understand the strategic importance, but still…), there was mention of the Japanese civilians jumping off cliffs to escape capture. They had been told that we would eat them. What to do with such ignorance and such a profound distrust? I confess to not understanding such a culture. This is not to demonize the Japanese or to enoble us–it’s just a statement. Instead of blaming a people, I blame the mindset of Total Victory, no matter whose side is espousing it. There is much here that could be applied to the war, but that’s another thread.
I can (in my head) justify Hiroshima. But I struggle with Nagasaki. Why again? Why not wait and see? I also don’t want a hijack, but that stays with me. But with that, I refuse to see the US as total evil in using the Bomb, either. At least not the first time when its impact was theorectical and largely unknown. But that second bomb…
A very thought provoking series for me. I doubt I’ll sit down and watch it again, though. I would like to see The World at War again, though.

Huh. You have a site and everything. I stand corrected.

I think it was hoped that, upon seeing the devastation that was Hiroshima, the Japanese would immediately surrender. They didn’t. They didn’t immediately surrender after the second bomb on Nagasaki, either.

They probably didn’t know we only had 2 bombs, but they still waited 6 days before they surrendered after seeing 2 cities destroyed in 3 days. I think that says something about the “fight to the death” mentality, that they didn’t throw in the towel on about August 7th.

Now, looking back, we can say that we could have just carpet bombed them a city at a time and never used the nuclear weapons. Back then, before the stigma of using nukes was cultivated, using one bomb to effectively “carpet bomb” a city must have seemed like a very logical path to take. Of course now we would be horrified at such a proposition, but in 1945 the world had seen many cities destroyed. The “how” of it probably wasn’t nearly as difficult a decision as we make it to be in hindsight.

And I haven’t said so yet, but the PBS station I get through Direct TV is a day behind what is being discussed in this thread, I see (what I take will be) the final episode tonight.

You are gracious, sir. :slight_smile:

I’m not sure why I seem to be coming off as a defender of any of the Japanese actions or making a criticism of using the A-bomb. I’m not making a statement on any of the above at all; I just commented on that one particular moment in the film that struck me.

I didn’t take your comments that way-there are so many issues raised by this series–it’s an excellent discussion starter. Her insensitivity struck me as well. And while the “Daddy started the VJ celebration in Mobile” makes a good family story, I was struck (once again) about how she was so self centered in her perspective of the wawh. I wonder if Sasha would have considered Wawh Lady one of the “stupid” ones that she mentioned.

The whole thing(series, WW2) saddens me more than I realized at first.