# The Watchmen Questions (movie version-open spoilers) **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [January 12, 2010, 1:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-watchmen-questions-movie-version-open-spoilers/524588 "2010-01-12T01:26:48Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Oakminster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/77aa72/32.png) [@Oakminster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oakminster)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2010, 6:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-watchmen-questions-movie-version-open-spoilers/524588/21 "2010-01-12T06:15:17Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > For bonus points, that’s straight out of the comic. 😉 How did that work? They have a tape deck in _Archimedes_? ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2010, 6:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-watchmen-questions-movie-version-open-spoilers/524588/22 "2010-01-12T06:17:01Z")
> [@Oakminster](#): > > How did that work? They have a tape deck in _Archimedes_? 8-Track player I bet. Remember, Nite Owl retired in the 70s. ---
**Author:** ![Oakminster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/77aa72/32.png) [@Oakminster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oakminster)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2010, 6:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-watchmen-questions-movie-version-open-spoilers/524588/23 "2010-01-12T06:38:20Z")
> [@Odesio](#): > > 8-Track player I bet. Remember, Nite Owl retired in the 70s. Nah. Rorschach would have paid a little visit to the inventor shortly after having his copy of _Frampton Comes Alive_ mangled. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2010, 8:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-watchmen-questions-movie-version-open-spoilers/524588/24 "2010-01-12T08:39:21Z")
> [@Oakminster](#): > > How did that work? They have a tape deck in _Archimedes_? Nope (not that I recall - at work right now) but the relevant chapter _is_ entitled “Two Riders Were Approaching” ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Q](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/898d66/32.png) [@Johnny\_Q](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Q)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2010, 9:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-watchmen-questions-movie-version-open-spoilers/524588/25 "2010-01-12T09:08:02Z")
> [@RealityChuck](#): > > In the comic, Dan and Sally (Nite Owl II and Silk Spectre II) changed their identities to Sam and Sandra Hollis (they also changed their looks, bleaching their hair blond). The movie ran long enough without trying to establish that. Not to mention that the cops actually do end up raiding Dan’s house(possibly on a tip from Viedt) and they break into the Owlcave right after Archie has left. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2010, 1:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-watchmen-questions-movie-version-open-spoilers/524588/26 "2010-01-12T13:07:21Z")
> [@Jihi](#): > > You could be completely right **Waldo** and I understand where your coming from on this, but two thoughts occur to me off the top of my head… > > Number one is thematic… Moore’s deconstruction of the superhero genre includes questioning the motivations and decision making capabilities of people who dress up in bright spandex to fight crime… These people are extraordinary but they’re still human. Is it not possible that all of them came to the wrong conclusion at the same time, given the same circumstances? Well, yeah, but two thoughts occur to me: one, that Moore also includes that lengthy academic paper by Milton Glass (who assuredly _ **isn’t** _ a guy who dresses up in bright spandex to fight crime) that reaches the same conclusion as Blake about how all-out nuclear destruction is inevitable otherwise; and two, that Moore _ **doesn’t** _ really include anything to the contrary. From those converging lines of the nuclear hazard escalation index hitting right when Blake called it, and those headlines about the doomsday clock before Veidt moves against Doc, Moore repeatedly emphasizes the situation but doesn’t go out of his way to indicate against the “or all die” scenario. (Rather the opposite; when the blood hits during Veidt’s attack, it pretty well leaves OR ALL DIE as the writing on the wall.) I mean, imagine Moore intended to write a story where this actually _ **was** _ the lesser of two evils. What more would he add to make it clear? Which, coming back around, strikes me as part and parcel of the superhero deconstruction: yes, he wants to show this or that superhero as trying but failing to quit smoking, or as a closeted homosexual who gets a bit paunchy and dies in a car accident, or as a problem drinker or a guy who gets shot dead when his cape gets caught in a bank’s revolving door – and he _ **also** _ wants to show them as affecting the real world, which we also weren’t really seeing in comics up to that point: winning the war in Vietnam, electric cars all over the place, Nixon still in office due to Woodward and Bernstein’s murder, and dozens of other effects besides. And he also wanted to give us Rorschach’s brutal killings and backstory, plus Hooded Justice’s outright sadism, along with the Comedian gunning down a pregnant woman and et cetera. And he wanted to delve into everything from Dan’s sexual hang-ups to Adrian’s experimentation with drugs. But for all that, I think he _ **also** _ wanted to do something else we hadn’t really gotten to see in regular comics: to work a really thoroughgoing deconstruction, he can put them in a situation where they’d genuinely face a lesser-of-two-evils situation involving the deaths of innocents. ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Tildrum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e95f7d/32.png) [@Tom\_Tildrum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Tildrum)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2010, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-watchmen-questions-movie-version-open-spoilers/524588/27 "2010-01-12T16:59:17Z")
At the same time, Moore arguably reaffirms the basic ethos of superhero comics. Left to themselves, ordinary people put themselves squarely in harm’s way (via the escalating nuclear confrontation). They ultimately needed Veidt, the superhero, to rescue them. it was just a lot messier than it typically is in comic books. ---
**Author:** ![Oakminster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/77aa72/32.png) [@Oakminster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oakminster)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2010, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-watchmen-questions-movie-version-open-spoilers/524588/28 "2010-01-12T17:03:35Z")
Is Veidt a hero or a villain? His motive doesn’t seem to be evil, but his tactics included the murder of millions. I’ve referred to him as a villain above, and I don’t think I’m capable of seeing him as a hero, but there is some room for debate, I suppose… ---
**Author:** ![simster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/simster/32/1047_2.png) [@simster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/simster)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2010, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-watchmen-questions-movie-version-open-spoilers/524588/29 "2010-01-12T17:17:19Z")
> [@Oakminster](#): > > Is Veidt a hero or a villain? His motive doesn’t seem to be evil, but his tactics included the murder of millions. I’ve referred to him as a villain above, and I don’t think I’m capable of seeing him as a hero, but there is some room for debate, I suppose… IMHO, For him to have been a hero, he would have had to have shouldered the responsibility for his actions - by thrusting the blame onto someone else, he became the villain. ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2010, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-watchmen-questions-movie-version-open-spoilers/524588/30 "2010-01-12T17:32:29Z")
> [@](#): > > Finally, Dr. Manhattan mentioned in passing that he might choose to create life elsewhere in the universe. What kind of life would he create? I’ve said it before -=- where do you think Smurfs come from? And he’s keeping his hand in with people. He’s created a Blue Man Group for every major city. Heck, he’s not even trying to hide it! ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2010, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-watchmen-questions-movie-version-open-spoilers/524588/31 "2010-01-12T18:04:37Z")
> [@simster](#): > > IMHO, For him to have been a hero, he would have had to have shouldered the responsibility for his actions - by thrusting the blame onto someone else, he became the villain. For the plan to work, it had to be blamed on an outside threat (this is even more explicit in the comic). His part in it can’t be revealed. Oh, and just\* incidentally\*, of course, his superior brains are needed to shape the following era of _detente_.:dubious: ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Tildrum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e95f7d/32.png) [@Tom\_Tildrum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Tildrum)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2010, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-watchmen-questions-movie-version-open-spoilers/524588/32 "2010-01-12T18:17:52Z")
> [@Oakminster](#): > > Is Veidt a hero or a villain? His motive doesn’t seem to be evil, but his tactics included the murder of millions. I’ve referred to him as a villain above, and I don’t think I’m capable of seeing him as a hero, but there is some room for debate, I suppose… The book pretty unambiguously suggests that Veidt was correct that what he did was necessary to save the world from a worse fate. The fact that he had to sacrifice his soul and turn himself into a monster in the process arguably makes him more of a hero, not less. Still, something more ambiguous like “Veidt the superhuman” works too. ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2010, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-watchmen-questions-movie-version-open-spoilers/524588/33 "2010-01-12T18:18:33Z")
The movie version of Ozzy is much more of a prick. You can tell from the beginning that Adrian is an asshole. The comic book version is more believably a guy who has determined this is the only way to save the world, instead of an asshole running an experiment on the puny humans. As for whether he’s a hero or a villain, that’s the point. He’s neither. He’s a guy with a plan that included the murder of millions. To save billions. But there was no guarantee his plan would work, and there’s no guarantee it will continue to stay secret, and there’s no guarantee that the fix will continue to work. And this is the problem with everyone who believes the means justfiy the ends–nothing ever ends. So put yourself in Rorschach’s place–would you keep quiet or try to expose the plot? As an aside, one thing I love about the Nite Owl/Rorschach team is that both of them are different facets of Batman–one the gageteer, the other the obsessed unbalanced loner. ---
**Author:** ![Oakminster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/77aa72/32.png) [@Oakminster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oakminster)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2010, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-watchmen-questions-movie-version-open-spoilers/524588/34 "2010-01-12T18:39:50Z")
I got the Night Owl/Batman similarity, but Rorshach is so out there…guy makes The Punisher look like a pacifist. ---
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2010, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-watchmen-questions-movie-version-open-spoilers/524588/35 "2010-01-12T18:56:42Z")
> [@Oakminster](#): > > I got the Night Owl/Batman similarity, but Rorshach is so out there…guy makes The Punisher look like a pacifist. And yet, he is the one that won’t lie. ---
**Author:** ![capeo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b19c9b/32.png) [@capeo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/capeo)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2010, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-watchmen-questions-movie-version-open-spoilers/524588/36 "2010-01-12T18:57:36Z")
> [@Jihi](#): > > It can be somewhat difficult to pick up in the movie given how the fight scenes and whatnot were filmed, but Manhattan is supposed to be the only being in the Watchmen universe with superpowers. That’s an important plot point. That to me is a huge failing of the movie. Everyone I know who watched the movie who was unfamiliar with the comic invariably asked where everyone got their super powers. The fact that Snyder went all 300 on the effects really hurt this movie for me. Moore goes to great lengths to show these are regular people (except Dr. M of course) and the film makes them do ridiculously acrobatic crap that none of them are capable of. Something as simple as Rorschach climbing over the railing of the Comedian’s porch. In the panel in the comic he is doing just that. Climbing over it. Like a normal human. In the movie he drops down onto the railing with his coat flying like a cape and lands balancing on the rail like a two-bit ninja. Also the fight with Veidt is utterly crazy and looks absolutely nothing like the fight in comic. One can argue Veidt is nearly superhuman simply because his physically conditioning and intelligence go beyond plausibility but he is still not able to kick people twenty feet through the air like he does in the film. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2010, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-watchmen-questions-movie-version-open-spoilers/524588/37 "2010-01-12T20:21:27Z")
> [@Dangerosa](#): > > And yet, he is the one that won’t lie. Not even in the face of Armageddon. Never compromise. ---
**Author:** ![BMalion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e274bd/32.png) [@BMalion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BMalion)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2010, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-watchmen-questions-movie-version-open-spoilers/524588/38 "2010-01-12T21:42:22Z")
I thought _Rorshach_ was originally based on _The Question_. ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2010, 10:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-watchmen-questions-movie-version-open-spoilers/524588/39 "2010-01-12T22:40:33Z")
> [@capeo](#): > > One can argue Veidt is nearly superhuman simply because his physically conditioning and intelligence go beyond plausibility but he is still not able to kick people twenty feet through the air like he does in the film. It was the bullet catching that makes me lean towards the super human side for Veidt. ---
**Author:** ![Oakminster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/77aa72/32.png) [@Oakminster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oakminster)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2010, 10:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-watchmen-questions-movie-version-open-spoilers/524588/40 "2010-01-12T22:53:28Z")
> [@Odesio](#): > > It was the bullet catching that makes me lean towards the super human side for Veidt. Wonder how he’d do against a shotgun loaded with buckshot, from a range of 10 yards or so? The pattern should be wider than both of his hands combined… [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-watchmen-questions-movie-version-open-spoilers/524588.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-watchmen-questions-movie-version-open-spoilers/524588.md?page=3)