# The Watchmen (warning: Spoilers!) **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [November 18, 2004, 2:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-watchmen-warning-spoilers/275400 "2004-11-18T02:27:02Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 10\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![tim314](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tim314/32/3468_2.png) [@tim314](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tim314)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2004, 3:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-watchmen-warning-spoilers/275400/41 "2004-11-20T03:44:40Z")
> [@Odinoneeye](#): > > I was the first one in my circle of friends to figure out Ozymandias was behind it! Just out of curiosity, at what point did you figure it out? ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2004, 4:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-watchmen-warning-spoilers/275400/42 "2004-11-20T04:11:38Z")
> [@](#): > > Critically acclaimed, yes. People who are not critics and thus know more than what is in front of their faces will at the very least remmeber that V For Vendetta and High Society preceded it, and some of them will also give nods to Squadron Supreme. I’d use _V for Vendetta_ to help my argument that context is important. I’ve read the book but I was not overwhelmed by it. And I think the inability to assume the same point of view as its fans was a major factor. _V for Vendetta_ was written with a very British sensibility; as an American, I could read it and understand it, but I wasn’t going to appreciate it at the same level that a British reader would. _High Society_ and _Squadron Supreme_ are two series I read years after they first came out (in fact, I first read _Squadron Supreme_ earlier this year). _High Society_ is a masterpiece; but I have to wonder if I was reading it now, I might start unconsciously start looking for early signs of the author’s later “difficulties”. When I read _Squadron Supreme_, I was surprised; I had heard great things about it, but quite frankly it’s pretty bad. The dialogue and characters are so bad it almost seems like a parody of a bad comic book. I can see that both were unfortunately not atypical of superhero comics of its era and _Squadron Supreme_ was raised above its contemporaries by its plot. But overall, I’d say it’s a prime example of how one generation’s masterpiece can seem dated to another generation. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2004, 4:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-watchmen-warning-spoilers/275400/43 "2004-11-20T04:16:55Z")
> [@](#): > > Although I do think, reading it in one shot does diminish the experience a little. When I first read it, every month there was speculation, analysis and arguments over the issue. It was as much fun as actually reading it. This was definitely true. I remember I had worked out a complex theory that explained the whole mystery. Unfortunately, the actual climax has so overwhelmed me, I have completely forgotten the whole thing. All I know was that I had “discovered” a big conspiracy, it tied together several different plotlines in the series, it was every bit as complicated as the actual outcome, and it was completely wrong. ---
**Author:** ![CaveMike](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cavemike/32/16379_2.png) [@CaveMike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CaveMike)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2004, 5:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-watchmen-warning-spoilers/275400/44 "2004-11-20T05:24:09Z")
> [@Little Nemo](#): > > The other thing is that the background of the book is the Cold War. Nowadays, the Soviet Union is about as scary as Nazi Germany; sure they were bad back then but it’s just history now. I agree with this, but only partially. I re-read Watchmen in October 2001 and the tensions resonated with me just as much then as when I first read it in the 80’s. The recent terrorism and the US’s move into Afganistan created a back-drop of fear and worry about the world’s future that was very similar to the feelings during the cold war. ---
**Author:** ![Joools](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/6de8d8/32.png) [@Joools](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Joools)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2004, 5:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-watchmen-warning-spoilers/275400/45 "2004-11-20T05:45:20Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > On the subject of other comics/graphic novels of old, am I the only one who remembers Bill Sienkiewicz’s _Stray Toasters_? You sure aren’t. I’ve got the original issues in my closet still. Glad to see I’m not the only person who was a fan of quirky comics in the mid-80s. But I’m sure having trouble imagining a movie made from that one. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Death](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ecccb3/32.png) [@Evil\_Death](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Death)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2004, 9:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-watchmen-warning-spoilers/275400/46 "2004-11-20T09:10:54Z")
> [@Little Nemo](#): > > I’d use _V for Vendetta_ to help my argument that context is important. I’ve read the book but I was not overwhelmed by it. And I think the inability to assume the same point of view as its fans was a major factor. _V for Vendetta_ was written with a very British sensibility; as an American, I could read it and understand it, but I wasn’t going to appreciate it at the same level that a British reader would. Just imagine it’s set in contemporary America. > [@](#): > > When I read _Squadron Supreme_, I was surprised; I had heard great things about it, but quite frankly it’s pretty bad. The dialogue and characters are so bad it almost seems like a parody of a bad comic book. It is. The Squadron Supreme are based on the JLA. > [@](#): > > I can see that both were unfortunately not atypical of superhero comics of its era and _Squadron Supreme_ was raised above its contemporaries by its plot. But overall, I’d say it’s a prime example of how one generation’s masterpiece can seem dated to another generation. You evidently don’t read The Authority, then. It’s one of the books of the moment, but the original idea was lifted directly from SS and it’s currently running through a storyline very similar to that of the rest of SS. ---
**Author:** ![DrFidelius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drfidelius/32/3447_2.png) [@DrFidelius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrFidelius)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2004, 1:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-watchmen-warning-spoilers/275400/47 "2004-11-20T13:37:34Z")
Because Marvel created their own “JLA” with **Squadron Supreme** they were able to do more with them. SS is the book that **Kingdom Come** could have been if DC had been willing to let their flagship characters actually _do_ things such as imposing a police state on the world. That given, SS suffered from a lack of resonance with the characters. I mean, who actually cares what happens to Hyperion or Nighthawk. We have no history on them. However, we believe we know how Superman or Batman will react when faced with a difficult choice. And that connects only loosely with **Watchmen**. I doubt that any readers (at the time) were such fans of the Charlton characters to compare Doctor Manhatten’s actions with expectations based on Captain Atom. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2004, 2:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-watchmen-warning-spoilers/275400/48 "2004-11-20T14:03:12Z")
> [@](#): > > Just imagine it’s set in contemporary America. I think you completely missed the point. > [@](#): > > It is. The Squadron Supreme are based on the JLA. I know that the Squadron Supreme was based on the JLA. But I wasn’t talking about the origins; I was talking about the writing style. Squadron Supreme was written back when comic book dialogue was still be written in “heroic” style. Characters didn’t speak - they declaimed. Faced with death, a character wouldn’t say, “Damn, I’m screwed” but would instead utter breathless prose like “Great thunder of Zeus! Surely this is the hour of my greatest peril!!! Mightily I must strive to escape these fearsome bounds ere I perish and evil go unvanquished!!!” ---
**Author:** ![tim314](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tim314/32/3468_2.png) [@tim314](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tim314)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2004, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-watchmen-warning-spoilers/275400/49 "2004-11-20T18:30:02Z")
Personally, I don’t mind the cheezy old school comic book dialogue. It’s a bit jarring when you’re not expecting it, but if I go into a comic knowing it will be like that then it doesn’t really bother me. That’s just the nature of comics from that era. It’s like if you watch a musical, you should expect the characters to inexplicably break into song, realism be damned. Don’t get me wrong, I mostly read comics with more realistic dialogue, and certainly enjoy them – but cheezy dialogue doesn’t ruin a good story for me (unless it’s in a book where cheezy dialogue doesn’t belong. If the Punisher said “Surely this is the hour of my greatest peril” then yeah, it would bother me a bit.) ---
**Author:** ![rackensack](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e5b9ba/32.png) [@rackensack](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rackensack)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2004, 5:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-watchmen-warning-spoilers/275400/50 "2004-11-21T05:43:50Z")
> [@Joools](#): > > > [@Gyrate](#): > > > > On the subject of other comics/graphic novels of old, am I the only one who remembers Bill Sienkiewicz’s Stray Toasters? > > You sure aren’t. I’ve got the original issues in my closet still. Glad to see I’m not the only person who was a fan of quirky comics in the mid-80s. > > But I’m sure having trouble imagining a movie made from that one. I’m also a big fan of Sienkiewicz’s work and _Stray Toasters_ in particular – have the original issues still myself. I actually had color copies made of the first three covers (didn’t see much point in doing the matte/gloss varnish over black ink of the fourth) on an early Canon color copier back in 1988 and mounted them on foam core and hung them in my office at the ad agency I worked for then. Unfortunately, I have only too clear an idea of what Hollywood’s likely to make of _Stray Toasters_, and it’s completely wrong. I don’t think it’s possible to make a good movie out of it, but that won’t stop them. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-watchmen-warning-spoilers/275400.md?page=2)