# The way the Democratic establishment is treating Bernie supporters is a blunder.
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-way-the-democratic-establishment-is-treating-bernie-supporters-is-a-blunder/753263
**Category:** Politics & Elections
**Created:** [April 27, 2016, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-way-the-democratic-establishment-is-treating-bernie-supporters-is-a-blunder/753263 "2016-04-27T16:50:31Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 11
### Author:  [@ISiddiqui](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ISiddiqui)
#### Post date: [April 28, 2016, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-way-the-democratic-establishment-is-treating-bernie-supporters-is-a-blunder/753263/201 "2016-04-28T21:04:31Z")
> [@Nonsuch](#):
>
> Time will tell, but I for one am not holding my breath. Everyone said the same thing after Nader and Dean. Dean at least made some effort to build his campaign into a permanent movement — his organization Dean for America morphed into [Democracy for America](https://www.democracyforamerica.com), ostensibly still a going concern though obviously not effective in keeping Democrats from getting shellacked in off-year elections.
Well not just that, but the whole “we not I” stuff was said when President Obama was running. There was definitely an undercurrent of this is a movement ‘of the people’ in Obama’s campaign.
I think this movement has even less of a chance of developing into anything lasting.
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### Author:  [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)
#### Post date: [April 28, 2016, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-way-the-democratic-establishment-is-treating-bernie-supporters-is-a-blunder/753263/202 "2016-04-28T21:08:18Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#):
>
> :dubious: Perhaps polls are not votes, but Sanders outpolling Clinton as against both Trump and Cruz is an undeniably relevant and important fact, and there is nothing arrogant or condescending in calling attention to it.
Out-polling Clinton according to which poll? When? Why didn’t we see the results nationally? Are you trying to peddle the argument that the elections were held at the wrong times? Bad luck, Bernie?
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### Author:  [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)
#### Post date: [April 28, 2016, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-way-the-democratic-establishment-is-treating-bernie-supporters-is-a-blunder/753263/203 "2016-04-28T21:11:06Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#):
>
> Yes, but neither Clinton nor Obama in 2008 represented a movement greater than their campaigns. Sanders does, and it is a movement that is not going to quiet down and go away after Clinton is nominated or elected or inaugurated.
Well, leaving aside that fact that lots of African-Americans would piss themselves laughing at the utter stupidity of the idea that Sanders represented more of a movement beyond his campaign than Obama did, who represented the culmination of dreams of millions upon millions of people over the course of centuries as opposed to salving the egos of a bunch of underachieving, over-educated, entitled white folks pissed off that the Democratic party didn’t listen to them as much as it used to, Sanders doesn’t represent a new movement.
His so-called “revolution” failed because he never managed to reach beyond his base of pissed off white, college educated lefties who turned out in previous elections for Jerry Brown, Paul Simon, Dennis Kucinich, and of course Howard Dean, and in each case, when their candidate left the field, had a brief pity party where they unleashed some impotent ranting(which is quite normal for anyone who’s invest a lot of time and energy in a candidate one genuinely loves) but then they got over it and supported the Democratic candidate over the more loathsome Republican alternative.
[http://www.slate.com/articles/news\_and\_politics/cover\_story/2016/04/there\_is\_no\_bernie\_sanders\_movement.html](http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/cover_story/2016/04/there_is_no_bernie_sanders_movement.html)
> [@](#):
>
> There’s no question the Vermont senator has performed in a way—and at a level—that no one anticipated, giving Hillary Clinton a serious challenge in a primary that was originally billed as a coronation. He has beaten expectations.\*\* But far from building a coalition of new voters and expanding left-wing politics to groups who have traditionally eschewed or avoided it, Sanders has simply reconstituted the usual liberal coalition that backs insurgents in a Democratic primary. \*\ ***He has done so with incredible success. But a movement? There never was a Bernie Sanders movement** … **…Remove his “socialist” branding, which even he defines as little more than an updated form of New Deal liberalism, and you’re left with a candidate who strongly resembles other insurgent candidates going back to the beginning of the modern primary process, from George McGovern to Jerry Brown to Bill Bradley to Howard Dean**. He relies on “authenticity” as contrasted with the “calculated” positioning of mainstream candidates. He stands on the ideological left, a factional figure who seeks to pull the party in his direction, or pry concessions from a reluctant establishment. And his support comes from the usual places: Young people (especially college students), white liberals, and the most ideological actors within the Democratic Party.
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### Author:  [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)
#### Post date: [April 28, 2016, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-way-the-democratic-establishment-is-treating-bernie-supporters-is-a-blunder/753263/204 "2016-04-28T21:12:19Z")
> [@asahi](#):
>
> Out-polling Clinton according to which poll? When?
According to **Evil Captor’s** link, a CBS News poll earlier this month.
> [@asahi](#):
>
> Why didn’t we see the results nationally?
Good question – to ask the mainstream media, which have been ignoring Sanders whenever possible since this campaigning season started.
> [@asahi](#):
>
> Are you trying to peddle the argument that the elections were held at the wrong times? Bad luck, Bernie?
No. The difference is that primaries are Democrats-only. That poll is not – and neither is the general election. As **Evil Captor** noted, independents – who do get to vote in November – like Sanders but not Clinton.
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### Author:  [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)
#### Post date: [April 28, 2016, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-way-the-democratic-establishment-is-treating-bernie-supporters-is-a-blunder/753263/205 "2016-04-28T21:23:00Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#):
>
> :dubious: Perhaps polls are not votes, but Sanders outpolling Clinton as against both Trump and Cruz is an undeniably relevant and important fact, and there is nothing arrogant or condescending in calling attention to it.
Oh, please, those polls you’re referring to are utterly useless. None of the people responding to them have seen Sanders take serious attacks from Republicans or seen how he’ll react to them.
In another thread you said you thought it was no big deal that in his past he had written whacko essays about how if girls in America didn’t having a lot more sex at much younger ages they were in danger of getting breast and cervical cancer and that we needed to start encouraging girls to start having lots of sex well before 18 and even seemed to savor the idea of American females taking such advice, but I seriously doubt most people who aren’t already hard core supporters will like hearing such lunatic advice. All joking aside, I’m pretty sure you’d agree that assuming that Bernie Sanders will react well to questioning about those articles he wrote for the Vermont Freeman and the American public will probably not react well to them either.
William Saletan of Slate outlines all the baggage and skeletons in his closet that could be used against him that the people who were being polled are almost certainly unaware of.
If he got to the general they wouldn’t be unaware of them for very long.
[http://www.slate.com/articles/news\_and\_politics/politics/2016/04/polls\_say\_bernie\_is\_more\_electable\_than\_hillary\_don\_t\_believe\_them.html](http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/politics/2016/04/polls_say_bernie_is_more_electable_than_hillary_don_t_believe_them.html)
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### Author:  [@Ulf\_the\_Unwashed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ulf_the_Unwashed)
#### Post date: [April 28, 2016, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-way-the-democratic-establishment-is-treating-bernie-supporters-is-a-blunder/753263/206 "2016-04-28T21:25:58Z")
> [@TriPolar](#):
>
> Well it’s great that you’re refuting something I’m not saying. But your also saying you don’t know that Hillary is the people’s choice because everyone didn’t get to vote. Not that it matters because you have to face the fact that right now Hillary has won a narrow majority of Democrats and some independents in a primary heavily weighted in her favor. You are in luck though, the GOP is falling apart and Bernie is doing the right thing and swinging around to support her and the Democratic party. Short of miracle she’ll be the next president with a solid majority of the vote. So I guess there’s no need for her to care about the people and she can go ahead with her secret plan make the world a big happy village.
[bolding mine]
Okay, then I don’t get what you’re saying. Earlier in the thread you said “Not all the independents got to vote for Bernie.” Later, you said “You are responding to my counter to the idea that support of the people can be determined by the number of votes when all the people are not allowed to vote.” If this is not a reference to closed primaries, I’m not sure I understand what it is.
Certainly this is a pretty standard complaint in Sanders’s campaign, that independents can’t vote for him in some states because of closed primaries.
If you weren’t talking about that, what do you mean? Are you talking about the general election, where everyone can vote?
I guess Sanders could’ve run as an independent. If he is that appealing to the “people,” and it’s just that the big bad Democrats have left no stone unturned to stop him from getting the nomination, then he might have won, right?
Look, in the 21 or so states with primaries where independents have been allowed to vote (approximating as nearly as possible the situation in a general election), Clinton has finished with more votes than Sanders two thirds of the time (and because of the relative sizes of the states they’ve won, has picked up more than two thirds of those delegates). It doesn’t make any difference whether Sanders is “surrounded by the people”–whatever “people” are surrounding him don’t represent close to a majority.
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### Author:  [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)
#### Post date: [April 28, 2016, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-way-the-democratic-establishment-is-treating-bernie-supporters-is-a-blunder/753263/207 "2016-04-28T21:37:54Z")
> [@asahi](#):
>
> They smear Hillary Clinton and then suggest that by not acknowledging them after absolutely thrashing their beloved communist . . .
No one who calls Sanders that has any credibility. It is not even defensible as hyperbole. Calling Trump a fascist would be defensible as hyperbole. Calling Sanders a Communist is a category error.
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### Author:  [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)
#### Post date: [April 28, 2016, 11:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-way-the-democratic-establishment-is-treating-bernie-supporters-is-a-blunder/753263/208 "2016-04-28T23:04:01Z")
> [@Airbeck](#):
>
> Jesus, is Hillary Derangement Syndrome a thing yet? Because some people sure have it right now…
It’s been a thing since 1992, arguably earlier. It’s some different people having it right now, but the originals will be back in the game as soon as they settle their own pillow fight.
> [@DSeid](#):
>
> Personally I think rumors of the birth of a movement have been exaggerated.
>
> We can talk after next mid terms.
The Bernie Movement can simply combine with the Nader Movement, the Perot Movement, the Anderson Movement, _et al._ This stuff happens every few cycles. It’s a rite of passage for undergraduates just discovering the world, and for the low-information alienated who think clean hands indicate moral purity rather than lack of accomplishment.
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### Author:  [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)
#### Post date: [April 28, 2016, 11:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-way-the-democratic-establishment-is-treating-bernie-supporters-is-a-blunder/753263/209 "2016-04-28T23:27:37Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#):
>
> As **Evil Captor** noted, independents – who do get to vote in November – like Sanders but not Clinton.
As Ulf the Unwashed has demonstrated, open primaries don’t appear to prove that. So what does?
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### Author:  [@FightMyIgnorance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FightMyIgnorance)
#### Post date: [April 28, 2016, 11:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-way-the-democratic-establishment-is-treating-bernie-supporters-is-a-blunder/753263/210 "2016-04-28T23:46:04Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#):
>
> Well, leaving aside that fact that lots of African-Americans would piss themselves laughing at the utter stupidity of the idea that Sanders represented more of a movement beyond his campaign than Obama did, who represented the culmination of dreams of millions upon millions of people over the course of centuries **as opposed to salving the egos of a bunch of underachieving, over-educated, entitled white folks pissed off that the Democratic party didn’t listen to them as much as it used to** , Sanders doesn’t represent a new movement.
>
> His so-called “revolution” failed because he never managed to reach beyond his base of pissed off white, college educated lefties who turned out in previous elections for Jerry Brown, Paul Simon, Dennis Kucinich, and of course Howard Dean, and in each case, when their candidate left the field, had a brief pity party where they unleashed some impotent ranting(which is quite normal for anyone who’s invest a lot of time and energy in a candidate one genuinely loves) but then they got over it and supported the Democratic candidate over the more loathsome Republican alternative.
> [There is no Bernie Sanders movement.](http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/cover_story/2016/04/there_is_no_bernie_sanders_movement.html)
Bolding mine.
Could you expand on this? Specifically in a way that doesn’t sweep a broad generalization over a good ~40 percent of primary voters? To me, it seems the equivalent of saying “Hillary is the candidate for those low information black voters who don’t know what’s good for them.” I have seen that attitude on this board, and as a Sanders supporter I was disgusted by it. Can you explain perhaps how your apparent generalization is different?
Also, cite that the Sanders campaign is a bunch on white people angry that they no longer have the Democratic Party under their thumb, please.
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### Author:  [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)
#### Post date: [April 28, 2016, 11:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-way-the-democratic-establishment-is-treating-bernie-supporters-is-a-blunder/753263/211 "2016-04-28T23:57:49Z")
> [@FightMyIgnorance](#):
>
> Can you explain perhaps how your apparent generalization is different?
I’m a Clinton supporter, and I don’t think it’s different.
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### Author:  [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)
#### Post date: [April 29, 2016, 12:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-way-the-democratic-establishment-is-treating-bernie-supporters-is-a-blunder/753263/212 "2016-04-29T00:06:53Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#):
>
> . . . Sanders doesn’t represent a new movement.
>
> His so-called “revolution” failed because . . .
And why did Obama’s revolution fail? Why did we get so little hope or change? Why have things not improved much for African-Americans or anybody else? Partly because of Pub obstructionism and racist backlash, of course, but also because he never meant to do the things we allowed ourselves to imagine he was promising between the lines. But Sanders speaks it plain and we need not doubt he means it.
No, Sanders doesn’t represent a **new** movement. American progressivism already was there – partly or mainly as a disillusioned and untapped voting bloc – before he riled it up. And after he steps off the stage it will remain riled, and, for the first time in a long time, aware of its strength.
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### Author:  [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)
#### Post date: [April 29, 2016, 12:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-way-the-democratic-establishment-is-treating-bernie-supporters-is-a-blunder/753263/213 "2016-04-29T00:13:36Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#):
>
> The Bernie Movement can simply combine with the Nader Movement, the Perot Movement, the Anderson Movement, _et al._ This stuff happens every few cycles.
No, it doesn’t. Perot and Anderson represented completely different political factions/traditions from left-progressivism. Nader’s campaign was a gasp of left-progressive frustration, and, since it could be blamed for W, rather soured the left on electoral action for years. This is different. Sanders is not playing a spoiler role, he is showing progressives that there are more of them than they realized and that they can have some success within the Democrats and perhaps even transform the party.
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### Author:  [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)
#### Post date: [April 29, 2016, 12:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-way-the-democratic-establishment-is-treating-bernie-supporters-is-a-blunder/753263/214 "2016-04-29T00:15:28Z")
> [@DSeid](#):
>
> Personally I think rumors of the birth of a movement have been exaggerated.
>
> We can talk after next mid terms.
Its the first trimester of the movement - but a lot of movements are miscarried before they are delivered. Don’t tell your mom that grandma-hood is imminent.
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### Author:  [@DigitalC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DigitalC)
#### Post date: [April 29, 2016, 12:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-way-the-democratic-establishment-is-treating-bernie-supporters-is-a-blunder/753263/215 "2016-04-29T00:29:00Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#):
>
> But Sanders speaks it plain and we need not doubt he means it.
Bullshit. Sanders is smart enough to know he has absolutely no chance of accomplishing anything he promises, he also knows most of his voters are not.
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### Author:  [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)
#### Post date: [April 29, 2016, 12:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-way-the-democratic-establishment-is-treating-bernie-supporters-is-a-blunder/753263/216 "2016-04-29T00:32:10Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#):
>
> If he got to the general they wouldn’t be unaware of them for very long.
>
> [http://www.slate.com/articles/news\_and\_politics/politics/2016/04/polls\_say\_bernie\_is\_more\_electable\_than\_hillary\_don\_t\_believe\_them.html](http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/politics/2016/04/polls_say_bernie_is_more_electable_than_hillary_don_t_believe_them.html)
They missed this one: [http://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2015/07/bernie-sanders-vermont-119927](http://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2015/07/bernie-sanders-vermont-119927)
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### Author:  [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)
#### Post date: [April 29, 2016, 12:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-way-the-democratic-establishment-is-treating-bernie-supporters-is-a-blunder/753263/217 "2016-04-29T00:32:51Z")
> [@DigitalC](#):
>
> Bullshit. Sanders is smart enough to know he has absolutely no chance of accomplishing anything he promises, he also knows most of his voters are not.
He doesn’t know that and neither do you. Nobody knows what the next Congress will look like.
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### Author:  [@DigitalC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DigitalC)
#### Post date: [April 29, 2016, 12:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-way-the-democratic-establishment-is-treating-bernie-supporters-is-a-blunder/753263/218 "2016-04-29T00:34:53Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#):
>
> He doesn’t know that and neither do you. Nobody knows what the next Congress will look like.
It doesn’t matter one tiny bit what the next Congress looks like, he could pull off a miracle and win the house and 60 seats in the senate and he still wouldn’t be able to do the things he wants. And yes i do know that, and you damn well should too.
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### Author:  [@Nonsuch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nonsuch)
#### Post date: [April 29, 2016, 1:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-way-the-democratic-establishment-is-treating-bernie-supporters-is-a-blunder/753263/219 "2016-04-29T01:31:14Z")
Same wine, new label. And I’m waiting to hear your explanation for how Sanders’ revolution is going to carry on and thrive while Howard Dean’s — a man with a [proven (and much more impressive) record of organizing for liberal causes against the Democratic Party mainstream](http://www.governing.com/blogs/politics/gov-democrat-howard-deans-fifty-state-strategy.html) — remains a political backwater.
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### Author:  [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)
#### Post date: [April 29, 2016, 1:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-way-the-democratic-establishment-is-treating-bernie-supporters-is-a-blunder/753263/220 "2016-04-29T01:56:02Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#):
>
> This is different. Sanders is not playing a spoiler role
At this point, yes, yes he is.
> [@](#):
>
> he is showing progressives that there are more of them than they realized and that they can have some success within the Democrats and perhaps even transform the party.
Nader voters thought so too.
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