# The way the Democratic establishment is treating Bernie supporters is a blunder.
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-way-the-democratic-establishment-is-treating-bernie-supporters-is-a-blunder/753263
**Category:** Politics & Elections
**Created:** [April 27, 2016, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-way-the-democratic-establishment-is-treating-bernie-supporters-is-a-blunder/753263 "2016-04-27T16:50:31Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 13
### Author:  [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)
#### Post date: [April 29, 2016, 2:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-way-the-democratic-establishment-is-treating-bernie-supporters-is-a-blunder/753263/241 "2016-04-29T14:06:47Z")
> [@DSeid](#):
>
> Mostly because Obama was not leading no stinking revolution.
>
> Oh he was _revolutionary_ to be sure, just because of who he was. And he was part of creating a successful movement. But it was not his fault that so many would not believe him when he stated over and over again that he was a moderate and that the way he was a revolutionary was the revolutionary belief that we could get past partisanship some and come to meaningful compromises in the service of accomplishing greater goods for this country.
That’s fucking bullshit. It is absolutely Obama’s fault that his promise to shut down Gitmo was merely a plan to transplant it to the continental United States, that his promise for greater government transparency turned into an administration that threw the 1917 Espionage Act at more whistleblowers than every previous Presidency put together, and that his administration murdered a 16 year old US citizen who was accused of no crime, living in a country we were not at war with, two weeks after killing his father by the same method.
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### Author:  [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)
#### Post date: [April 29, 2016, 2:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-way-the-democratic-establishment-is-treating-bernie-supporters-is-a-blunder/753263/242 "2016-04-29T14:30:01Z")
> [@DSeid](#):
>
> The downside is illustrated by Israeli politics. The balance of power has often held by small relatively extremist parties who are, Tea Party like, able to extract huge concessions from the much larger parties in return for their support, support required to form a ruling coalition. In Israel that historically played out as pandering consistently to the settler movement and to the ultra-Orthodox parties, who have rarely had much support from the population as a whole but without whom majority coalitions have been hard to create.
On the other hand, France and Germany seem to do ok with their multiparty coalitions. Canada in many ways is functionally 2 party, power generally flipping back and forth between the 2 fairly centrist parties, but has always had various and sometimes substantial third party representation. I would think any of those three would be a more useful comparison than Israel.
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### Author:  [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)
#### Post date: [April 29, 2016, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-way-the-democratic-establishment-is-treating-bernie-supporters-is-a-blunder/753263/243 "2016-04-29T15:06:14Z")
As would Italy’s dysfunctionality. Not so sure I judge France to be a great model either.
In any case Germany as an example is informative because their system is much more than just _poof_ multi party system.
Fun enough [here](http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/ten-miles-square/2013/12/what_if_the_us_had_a_multipart048282.php) is a good contrast between Germany’s system and ours!
> [@](#):
>
> … Members of the lower house of parliament, the Bundestag, are chosen through a process in which each German citizen has two votes. The first vote, as in the U.S., is cast for an individual person to represent a specific electoral district. The second, and ultimately more influential, vote is cast directly for a political party and determines the overall party composition of government.
>
> Such use of a proportional representation system almost guarantees that Germany will have a multiparty system. But in order to avoid chaotic hyper-fragmentation among parties (as found, for instance, in Italy) Germany enforces a threshold of 5% for a party to enter into the Bundestag. Essentially, any party that fails to gain at least 5% of the national vote is excluded from parliament, a provision that has proven useful in promoting centrism and marginalizing extremes, including both neo-fascist parties and the remnants of the old Communist Party in East Germany.
>
> In all, the German system has tended to yield parliaments with about five parties represented — which is also roughly what the U.S. political system might produce under similar rules. …
>
> … Just as the American two-party system has led to sharp polarization, the German multiparty system has pushed them towards greater accommodation.
>
> “Grand coalition” governments are not panaceas. Most notably, they often suffer from an inability to offer more than incremental changes and a tendency to fracture under stress. In the longer run it’s also problematic not to have the government in power checked by forceful opposition from a major party outside government. …
FWIW but you sure you want that?
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### Author:  [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)
#### Post date: [April 29, 2016, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-way-the-democratic-establishment-is-treating-bernie-supporters-is-a-blunder/753263/244 "2016-04-29T15:08:27Z")
**Grumman** not a fan of Obama. Got it.
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### Author:  [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)
#### Post date: [April 29, 2016, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-way-the-democratic-establishment-is-treating-bernie-supporters-is-a-blunder/753263/245 "2016-04-29T15:24:38Z")
> [@ISiddiqui](#):
>
> Because we all really like what the Tea Party has done to our politics. Here is hoping the establishment Democrats have a good deal more spine.
Yeah, the Republican Party got thoroughly fucked because they ignored the interests of a large portion of their base. And with the Dem base polling WELL to the left of the Dem leadership, gee … nice little Party you got there, be a SHAME if anything should happen to it.
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### Author:  [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)
#### Post date: [April 29, 2016, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-way-the-democratic-establishment-is-treating-bernie-supporters-is-a-blunder/753263/246 "2016-04-29T15:28:06Z")
> [@asahi](#):
>
> Right, and how has that worked out for the republican party? How has that worked out for the congress in general? Basically, you’re advocating for radicalization of the democratic party.
>
> I’ve got news for you. The United States is a conservative country. It may from time to time drift to the left as a way of rejecting the extremism of the right, but it will never become the kind of America you dream of. Ever.
>
> The only thing that radicalization of the left would accomplish is to completely discredit the entire progressive movement.
The US is like any other country, its values change over time. Right now the base is polling well to the left of the leadership, which is beholden to the oligarchs because of all that $$$$$$ they give them to finance their campaigns and retain their hold on power. Gonna be a rocky ride ahead, my friend.
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### Author:  [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)
#### Post date: [April 29, 2016, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-way-the-democratic-establishment-is-treating-bernie-supporters-is-a-blunder/753263/247 "2016-04-29T15:30:53Z")
> [@asahi](#):
>
> You won’t get there, for the reasons Ulf quite cogently laid out in his post. Bernie actually has the opportunity to build some momentum at the grassroots level, but he’s simply not putting in the time and effort to do so. I get that he’s in the middle of a campaign, and maybe he can devote more time to transformation between now and 2018, but I remain skeptical. There’s nothing now that suggests Bernie will be anything other than a fad.
We won’t get there if we wait for Bernie to make it all happen, but I don’t think that’s what’s gonna happen. A LOT of people have seen, because of Bernie’s candidacy, that you can primary from the left. Not everybody is gonna have the machine that Hillary does to counter all the grass-roots activisim out there. It’s going to be money versus people … I’m hoping people will win. You side with money against people. Think about that.
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### Author:  [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)
#### Post date: [April 29, 2016, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-way-the-democratic-establishment-is-treating-bernie-supporters-is-a-blunder/753263/248 "2016-04-29T15:31:31Z")
> [@DSeid](#):
>
> Fun enough [here](http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/ten-miles-square/2013/12/what_if_the_us_had_a_multipart048282.php) is a good contrast between Germany’s system and ours!
> FWIW but you sure you want that?
Don’t you? You have struck me as someone who would appreciate less polarization/greater accommodation and you just finished saying you liked Obama’s incremental change movement. What’s your objection?
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### Author:  [@Procrustus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Procrustus)
#### Post date: [April 29, 2016, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-way-the-democratic-establishment-is-treating-bernie-supporters-is-a-blunder/753263/249 "2016-04-29T15:40:02Z")
> [@Evil\_Captor](#):
>
> We won’t get there if we wait for Bernie to make it all happen, but I don’t think that’s what’s gonna happen. A LOT of people have seen, because of Bernie’s candidacy, that you can primary from the left. Not everybody is gonna have the machine that Hillary does to counter all the grass-roots activisim out there. It’s going to be money versus people … I’m hoping people will win. You side with money against people. Think about that.
what exactly do you think the Hillary machine is doing to “counter all the grass-roots activism?” She’s running a campaign, as in Sanders. They’re both doing the same thing. She has more “establishment” support, because more “establishment” figures support her. They’re people too.
Remember, her “machine” was all set up in 2008 and it didn’t get her quite as far. Despite what Sanders says, the system really isn’t “rigged,” everyone knows the rules and how the game is played. Obama beat Hillary, Hillary beat Sanders, and next time someone else will beat someone else. What’s the problem?
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### Author:  [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)
#### Post date: [April 29, 2016, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-way-the-democratic-establishment-is-treating-bernie-supporters-is-a-blunder/753263/250 "2016-04-29T15:43:32Z")
I was seriously asking if _you_ did, given that the German approach allegedly reinforces centrism and incrementalism.
Me? I see cautionary tales in Israel and elsewhere, see the American system as having been a stable representative democracy for a good long time now, and see no particular need to trash our Constitution to adopt Germany’s relatively still newish (just since after WW2) one.
I’m okay working within our basic structure, even if it is imperfect.
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### Author:  [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)
#### Post date: [April 29, 2016, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-way-the-democratic-establishment-is-treating-bernie-supporters-is-a-blunder/753263/251 "2016-04-29T15:51:27Z")
First, let’s differentiate between the official Dem establishment responses vs. those of Clinton’s passionate supporters. One is the controllable official party line, the other is not controllable
The blunder goes both ways. Yes, the Dem establishment should have hurled less vitriol at Sanders’ supporters, especially when it looked like he may win. They should have framed it as a healthy competition between two similar and liberal views that Americans share, and encouraged that passion. But Sanders supporters forget the lesson of the obstructionist Tea Party, who have many times cut off their noses to spite their faces, and continue to eat their own.
Incremental progress is ALWAYS preferable to the gamble of no change, or going backwards. In that sense, I have absolutely no problems with Obama. He’s moved many many liberal ideas forward and a slight few backwards. I’ll take that result 100 times out of 100. Those who demonize Clinton or Obama for not being the perfect liberal fail to offer a realistic path for change if Trump or Cruz becomes president. In their mind, they see that as an impossibility, and refuse to consider that their own actions may result in the worst possible outcome.
My hope is that after the primaries are over, we can go back to illustrating the heavy distinction between Clinton and Trump, and that Sanders supporters who have claimed they won’t vote for Clinton see the reality that their lives would be much much worse under a Trump presidency than anything they can imagine Clinton to be.
And if the knock on Clinton is that she’ll listen to focus groups and change her mind, then BE THAT FOCUS GROUP!
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### Author:  [@DigitalC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DigitalC)
#### Post date: [April 29, 2016, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-way-the-democratic-establishment-is-treating-bernie-supporters-is-a-blunder/753263/252 "2016-04-29T15:52:15Z")
> [@Evil\_Captor](#):
>
> We won’t get there if we wait for Bernie to make it all happen, but I don’t think that’s what’s gonna happen. A LOT of people have seen, because of Bernie’s candidacy, that you can primary from the left. Not everybody is gonna have the machine that Hillary does to counter all the grass-roots activisim out there. It’s going to be money versus people … I’m hoping people will win. You side with money against people. Think about that.
No, we side with truth against bullshit. The only thing Bernie’s candidacy has proven is that there are almost as many suckers on the far left as there are on the far right, that somehow you think this is a positive is utterly ridiculous.
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### Author:  [@Disgruntled\_Penguin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Disgruntled_Penguin)
#### Post date: [April 29, 2016, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-way-the-democratic-establishment-is-treating-bernie-supporters-is-a-blunder/753263/253 "2016-04-29T15:57:24Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#):
>
> I think I’ve got a record here of supporting Sanders and speaking out pretty loudly against obnoxious behavior from Clinton supporters. Keep that in mind as I say, what the hell are you thinking?
>
> Your post here and continuing in your other posts demonstrate a remarkably self-centered approach to politics. This is an excellent place for you to check your privilege.
I do reserve the privilege to not considering the weight of the planet to be on my shoulders. I’m not that full of myself.
> [@](#):
>
> A Trump presidency is likely to have severe impacts on people of color. Are you white, such that you can ignore these effects? It’s likely to be miserable for Muslims. Are you non-Muslim, so you can safely ignore these effects? There’s a pretty good chance (who the hell can even tell) that it’s not going to be great for women of childbearing age. Are you male, such that you can ignore these effects? It’ll probably be awful for kids living in poverty, and for their parents. Are you middle-class, so that you can ignore these effects?
1. My skin color is white but it’s not so simple. I am a minority but no one identifies me that way so I do have the societal benefit of a light skin color. regard.
2. No, I am not Muslim so yes, I can avoid these effects.
3. Yes I am male and I have no children to think about.
4. No, I am not. I’ve been at times and not been at times. It’s really never been a deal for me. I’m simply not a materialistic dude. I relate to the Hanged Man from the tarot deck. I’m in an unpleasant situation but I’m content. I am really adaptive like that and just clever enough to always find a way to eat.
5. To make matters worse, the people in my life are republicans so the people I care about who might personally be affected are voting republican and aren’t exactly happy that I am voting with the democrats “to help them.”
So yeah, like I have said before, I don’t vote for me. I’m not affected that much by who wins the election. I vote for what I think will help others many of whom already support the side I’m voting against. It’s hard enough getting motivated to help those who don’t even want it but to get hit by the people who claim to want the same thing as me is frustrating.
> [@](#):
>
> A Trump presidency will have very real, very serious adverse effects for literally millions of people. For you to decide to stay home on elections day because of hurt feelings is a terrible way to cast a vote.
If all of the women, muslims, not white, poor people who are the vast majority of the country can’t be bothered enough themselves to save themselves then I don’t feel really bad to one time in my life use my voting privilege for me. If they want it they can take it anytime they want but they don’t. Why not blame them instead of me?
Why am I responsible ( as opposed to concerned ) about their future when they can’t be bothered to do it for themselves? They obviously don’t care enough or don’t believe that what I am supporting is the solution for them.
> [@](#):
>
> I’m not at all crazy about Clinton. A lot of Clinton supporters completely disgust me with their behavior. But my emotional state is not so fragile that a bunch of yahoos saying dumb things about me are going to cloud my political analysis.
Fair enough, Apparently my emotional state is that fragile. It’s something I will have to work on I suppose. I’ve been told in this thread that there is no chance whatsoever that my countrymen will accept my ideas so while my emotional state is fragile, my sanity is not so fragile that I want to keep doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results.
Because I will get asked who I was referring to:
> [@](#):
>
> I’ve got news for you. The United States is a conservative country. It may from time to time drift to the left as a way of rejecting the extremism of the right, but it will never become the kind of America you dream of. Ever.
That really sounds like the truth honestly.
> [@](#):
>
> I’m at the point where the superpower I wish for is the power to clonk peoples’ heads together like coconuts. About a third of Sanders supporters, and about a third of Clinton supporters, would be making the most satisfying clonking sound right about now.
So, your wish would be the power to employ violence against those you disagree with? I’m not that radical. I will just withhold my support instead.
Another thing to consider, cancer is a horrible disease that kills lots of people. If someone doesn’t donate to the anti cancer groups does that mean that they should check their privilege at the door as well? How about any other charity. Is someone somehow flawed if they don’t give support to all of them? Is there a limit to how much a person must do to not be considered priviged and/or emotionally fragile?
Why or why not? I would think it’d be far worse for me to get cancer than for Trump to make life miserable for others.
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### Author:  [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)
#### Post date: [April 29, 2016, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-way-the-democratic-establishment-is-treating-bernie-supporters-is-a-blunder/753263/254 "2016-04-29T15:59:05Z")
@DSeid:
Well Germany’s seems like a well thought out system to me. Don’t think you’d have to trash the Constitution to move a little towards more multiparty participation. Some ballot access changes. Some Congressional rules changes.
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### Author:  [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)
#### Post date: [April 29, 2016, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-way-the-democratic-establishment-is-treating-bernie-supporters-is-a-blunder/753263/255 "2016-04-29T16:02:20Z")
> [@Procrustus](#):
>
> what exactly do you think the Hillary machine is doing to “counter all the grass-roots activism?” She’s running a campaign, as in Sanders. They’re both doing the same thing. She has more “establishment” support, because more “establishment” figures support her. They’re people too.
>
> Remember, her “machine” was all set up in 2008 and it didn’t get her quite as far. Despite what Sanders says, the system really isn’t “rigged,” everyone knows the rules and how the game is played. Obama beat Hillary, Hillary beat Sanders, and next time someone else will beat someone else. What’s the problem?
Oh, come on, all those votes counted in Hillary’s favor that had to be handed over to Bernie on the recount? And it ALWAYS worked that way, there were never “mistakes” made in Bernie’s favor. All those polling stations in Rhode Island that were closed to suppress the Bernie vote? (Bet you never thought you’d seen Dems suppressing the vote.) DWS’s games with the timing of the debates? That’s “riggiing” my friend, and it’s not a good thing.
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### Author:  [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)
#### Post date: [April 29, 2016, 4:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-way-the-democratic-establishment-is-treating-bernie-supporters-is-a-blunder/753263/256 "2016-04-29T16:04:59Z")
> [@Evil\_Captor](#):
>
> Oh, come on, all those votes counted in Hillary’s favor that had to be handed over to Bernie on the recount? And it ALWAYS worked that way, there were never “mistakes” made in Bernie’s favor. All those polling stations in Rhode Island that were closed to suppress the Bernie vote? (Bet you never thought you’d seen Dems suppressing the vote.) DWS’s games with the timing of the debates? That’s “riggiing” my friend, and it’s not a good thing.
Any recount stuff, if it occurred, hasn’t made more than a miniscule difference in the very large difference in vote and pledged-delegate count between the two candidates. And while I think it’s entirely possible that the intention of the DNC in their primary scheduling was to help Hillary, I see no reason to believe that it actually did so – she did great in every debate (as did Bernie, for the most part), and I don’t think more or more widely seen debates would have made much of a difference at all.
Basically, Hillary is winning big because, in general, _rank and file Democrats actually like Hillary quite a bit_, and rank and file Democrats mostly decide who wins the Democratic nomination.
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### Author:  [@DigitalC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DigitalC)
#### Post date: [April 29, 2016, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-way-the-democratic-establishment-is-treating-bernie-supporters-is-a-blunder/753263/257 "2016-04-29T16:10:05Z")
> [@Evil\_Captor](#):
>
> Oh, come on, all those votes counted in Hillary’s favor that had to be handed over to Bernie on the recount? And it ALWAYS worked that way, there were never “mistakes” made in Bernie’s favor. All those polling stations in Rhode Island that were closed to suppress the Bernie vote? (Bet you never thought you’d seen Dems suppressing the vote.) DWS’s games with the timing of the debates? That’s “riggiing” my friend, and it’s not a good thing.
You really really want to be the lefts Tea Party don’t you? let me guess, you also think the media was against Bernie?
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### Author:  [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)
#### Post date: [April 29, 2016, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-way-the-democratic-establishment-is-treating-bernie-supporters-is-a-blunder/753263/258 "2016-04-29T16:14:54Z")
> [@Disgruntled\_Penguin](#):
>
> Fair enough, Apparently my emotional state is that fragile. It’s something I will have to work on I suppose. I’ve been told in this thread that there is no chance whatsoever that my countrymen will accept my ideas so while my emotional state is fragile, my sanity is not so fragile that I want to keep doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results.
I wouldn’t take anything said on this board too deeply. The Straight Dope is Hillary country – old, white and cranky for the most part. They’re topnotch debaters but their views are often rather fixed.
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### Author:  [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)
#### Post date: [April 29, 2016, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-way-the-democratic-establishment-is-treating-bernie-supporters-is-a-blunder/753263/259 "2016-04-29T16:21:34Z")
> [@DigitalC](#):
>
> You really really want to be the lefts Tea Party don’t you? let me guess, you also think the media was against Bernie?
The mainstream media was DEFINITELY against Bernie. Why in the world would you think otherwise.
And I think the Dems need their progressive element to be more active and more in control, but that doesn’t necessarily constitute being a Tea Party. The progressive base isn’t filled with blind, stupid hatred like the Tea Party base, just for starters. They want to oust the Dem centrists from power … I’m ALL for that.
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### Author:  [@Disgruntled\_Penguin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Disgruntled_Penguin)
#### Post date: [April 29, 2016, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-way-the-democratic-establishment-is-treating-bernie-supporters-is-a-blunder/753263/260 "2016-04-29T16:23:17Z")
> [@Evil\_Captor](#):
>
> I wouldn’t take anything said on this board too deeply. The Straight Dope is Hillary country – old, white and cranky for the most part. They’re topnotch debaters but their views are often rather fixed.
Honestly I wouldn’t want to debate with any other group than my fellow dopers.
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