# The way the Democratic establishment is treating Bernie supporters is a blunder.
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-way-the-democratic-establishment-is-treating-bernie-supporters-is-a-blunder/753263
**Category:** Politics & Elections
**Created:** [April 27, 2016, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-way-the-democratic-establishment-is-treating-bernie-supporters-is-a-blunder/753263 "2016-04-27T16:50:31Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 15
### Author:  [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)
#### Post date: [April 29, 2016, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-way-the-democratic-establishment-is-treating-bernie-supporters-is-a-blunder/753263/281 "2016-04-29T22:03:35Z")
> [@DerekMichaels00](#):
>
> At the end of the day, once the ads woulda aired on Bernie, the GOP would’ve turned him into Vladimir Lenin.
And that would have done nothing but rehabilitate Lenin.
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### Author:  [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)
#### Post date: [April 29, 2016, 10:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-way-the-democratic-establishment-is-treating-bernie-supporters-is-a-blunder/753263/282 "2016-04-29T22:04:57Z")
> [@ISiddiqui](#):
>
> Because we all really like what the Tea Party has done to our politics.
That is because of the mindless **content** of the TP’s politics. Progressive politics are not mindless.
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### Author:  [@ISiddiqui](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ISiddiqui)
#### Post date: [April 29, 2016, 10:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-way-the-democratic-establishment-is-treating-bernie-supporters-is-a-blunder/753263/283 "2016-04-29T22:10:46Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#):
>
> That is because of the mindless **content** of the TP’s politics. Progressive politics are not mindless.
No, it’s because of the lack of any compromise whatsoever. Their content isn’t necessarily all that much worse than mainstream Republicanism - the lack of compromise, on the other hand…
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### Author:  [@DigitalC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DigitalC)
#### Post date: [April 29, 2016, 10:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-way-the-democratic-establishment-is-treating-bernie-supporters-is-a-blunder/753263/284 "2016-04-29T22:10:48Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#):
>
> What is he spoiling? He won’t be on the November ballot, he won’t be making a third-party run, and HRC will win with or without his endorsement.
He’s spoiling the expectations of voters. Hillary is not going to get them a 15 dollar minimum wage or free college or universal healthcare, but she might get ten and pass some fixes to Obamacare and try to reform student loans and the Bernie bros will still see it as a failure. Look at the OP and his description of the disappointment with Obama, who didn’t even have to deal with a candidate promising a whole bunch of shit he had no chance of delivering. He’s spoiling the party by training them to have incredibly unrealistic expectations.
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### Author:  [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)
#### Post date: [April 29, 2016, 10:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-way-the-democratic-establishment-is-treating-bernie-supporters-is-a-blunder/753263/285 "2016-04-29T22:15:14Z")
> [@asahi](#):
>
> In other words, Obama wasn’t going to risk achieving absolutely nothing if he didn’t get 100 percent of what he had hoped for.
:rolleyes: No, it’s not that at all.
From [_Listen, Liberal; Or, What Ever Happened to the Party of the People?_](http://www.amazon.com/Listen-Liberal-Happened-Party-People/dp/1627795391) by Thomas Frank:
> [@](#):
>
> I clung to the “hope” for a little while longer than that. I can remember the exact moment when I finally gave it up – it was the first time I heard the phrase “grand bargain,” Barack Obama’s pet term for his proposed deficit and tax deal with the Republicans. In a split second I understood the whole thing: that big compromises like this were real to the president, but “change” was not. I had known Obama had a passion for centrist talk; everybody did. Bipartisan conciliation was the theme of Obama’s famous keynote speech at the 2004 Democratic convention. It was one of the themes of his 2008 stump speech, when he talked so inspiringly about “the politics of addition, not the politics of division.”
>
> What was shocking about all of this was to realize that _Obama believed these clichés._ Consensus, bipartisanship, the “center”: _those_ were the things this admirable and intelligent man was _serious_ about – the kind of stale, empty verbiage favored by Beltway charlatans on Sunday talk shows. The other things Obama used to say – like when he connected deregulation, corruption, and income inequality in his Cooper Union speech in 2008 – those things were just to reel in the suckers. The suckers being the people who could hear the pillars of their middle-class world snapping. The suckers being the people who could see that the system was crumbling and thought maybe we ought to do something about it.
> [@asahi](#):
>
> . . . considering the country had no clear mandate for doing 100 percent of the things that Bernie Sanders are demanding now . . .
Well, there is a mandate for at least some of those things now, if you look at issue-specific polling questions. Most Americans want single-payer health care, etc., or at least will say so if asked.
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### Author:  [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)
#### Post date: [April 29, 2016, 10:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-way-the-democratic-establishment-is-treating-bernie-supporters-is-a-blunder/753263/286 "2016-04-29T22:28:33Z")
> [@ISiddiqui](#):
>
> No, it’s because of the lack of any compromise whatsoever. Their content isn’t necessarily all that much worse than mainstream Republicanism - the lack of compromise, on the other hand…
See post #285. The time for compromise is past. The PTB will compromise about anything but what they care about, which usually has to do with their money, and on that they will compromise not at all. You do things Obama’s way – and do you have any doubt Clinton will? – then you get Obama’s results, with things like a health-care plan that only enables and enriches the rent-seeking health-insurance industry. That won’t do, we do not merely want but **need** a great deal more than that.
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### Author:  [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)
#### Post date: [April 29, 2016, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-way-the-democratic-establishment-is-treating-bernie-supporters-is-a-blunder/753263/287 "2016-04-29T22:30:22Z")
> [@DigitalC](#):
>
> He’s spoiling the expectations of voters. Hillary is not going to get them a 15 dollar minimum wage or free college or universal healthcare, but she might get ten and pass some fixes to Obamacare and try to reform student loans and the Bernie bros will still see it as a failure. Look at the OP and his description of the disappointment with Obama, who didn’t even have to deal with a candidate promising a whole bunch of shit he had no chance of delivering. He’s spoiling the party by training them to have incredibly unrealistic expectations.
Yes, this. Apologies if this has already been posted, but Kevin Drum [wrote a great piece](http://m.motherjones.com/kevin-drum/2016/04/heres-why-i-never-warmed-bernie-sanders)on Mother Jones about how Bernie has basically been running a con, like a weight loss pill you might see advertised on late night TV.
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### Author:  [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)
#### Post date: [April 29, 2016, 10:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-way-the-democratic-establishment-is-treating-bernie-supporters-is-a-blunder/753263/288 "2016-04-29T22:31:43Z")
> [@DigitalC](#):
>
> He’s spoiling the expectations of voters. Hillary is not going to get them a 15 dollar minimum wage or free college or universal healthcare, but she might get ten and pass some fixes to Obamacare and try to reform student loans and the Bernie bros will still see it as a failure.
And they will be right to see it as a failure. Fixes around the edges are not going to do anything at all to solve America’s real problems.
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### Author:  [@DigitalC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DigitalC)
#### Post date: [April 29, 2016, 10:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-way-the-democratic-establishment-is-treating-bernie-supporters-is-a-blunder/753263/289 "2016-04-29T22:32:27Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#):
>
> :rolleyes: No, it’s not that at all.
>
> From [_Listen, Liberal; Or, What Ever Happened to the Party of the People?_](http://www.amazon.com/Listen-Liberal-Happened-Party-People/dp/1627795391) by Thomas Frank:
Compromise is how the government works. It is the ONLY way it works. This guys complaint seems to be “wait, he was serious about that compromise shit?”, which is a fucking positive and not something we should discourage.
> [@](#):
>
> Well, there is a mandate for at least some of those things now, if you look at issue-specific polling questions. Most Americans want single-payer health care, etc., or at least will say so if asked.
Of course people want those things, me included. But when a guy is telling you he can deliver them he is either delusional or bullshiting you.
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### Author:  [@DigitalC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DigitalC)
#### Post date: [April 29, 2016, 10:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-way-the-democratic-establishment-is-treating-bernie-supporters-is-a-blunder/753263/290 "2016-04-29T22:34:31Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#):
>
> And they will be right to see it as a failure. Fixes around the edges are not going to do anything at all to solve America’s real problems.
And that is exactly why it is not a blunder to ignore them. It is in fact the healthiest and smartest move for the party.
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### Author:  [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)
#### Post date: [April 29, 2016, 10:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-way-the-democratic-establishment-is-treating-bernie-supporters-is-a-blunder/753263/291 "2016-04-29T22:58:58Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#):
>
> What is he spoiling? He won’t be on the November ballot, he won’t be making a third-party run, and HRC will win with or without his endorsement. …
Probably. Odds are. And odds could be better. Not just with his full throated support but without having to expend resources (time and energy, not just money) in California, which will not be in play.
And while Clinton’s favorables to unfavorables are significantly better than Trump’s they are could still use some help being pushed up not brought down.
Finally spoiling the potential improvements in Congress. He indeed has engaged some people who are usual non-voters. They might stay engaged with his team’s serious efforts for President but without it many more will just stay home. Yeah, Clinton will likely win without 'em but there are many races down the ticket, both in Congress and at state levels, that can be won with high turnout of those voters. This is not the population that will come out to vote just for those downticket candidates.
> [@BrainGlutton](#):
>
> From [_Listen, Liberal; Or, What Ever Happened to the Party of the People?_](http://www.amazon.com/Listen-Liberal-Happened-Party-People/dp/1627795391) by Thomas Frank: …
Thank you providing some support for what I have been saying! From your quote:
> [@](#):
>
> I had known Obama had a passion for centrist talk; everybody did. Bipartisan conciliation was the theme of Obama’s famous keynote speech at the 2004 Democratic convention. It was one of the themes of his 2008 stump speech, when he talked so inspiringly about “the politics of addition, not the politics of division.”
>
> What was shocking about all of this was to realize that Obama believed these clichés. Consensus, bipartisanship, the “center”: those were the things this admirable and intelligent man was serious about …
Shit. He was actually telling the truth. No one expected _that_! He actually really believed what he was saying he believed. How dare he! What a disappointment!
Maybe that is the disconnect. I believed him and have been very pleased.
Of course I also do not believe that this country is fundamentally broken like some here do. I see that it as a functioning machine that needs some parts replaced and some upgrades and that it is in fact doing modestly well dealing with a drastically changing and very challenging world. I believe we are very lucky to have had Obama during this period of time and hope that Clinton will continue the good work.
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### Author:  [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)
#### Post date: [April 29, 2016, 10:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-way-the-democratic-establishment-is-treating-bernie-supporters-is-a-blunder/753263/292 "2016-04-29T22:59:40Z")
> [@DigitalC](#):
>
> And that is exactly why it is not a blunder to ignore them. It is in fact the healthiest and smartest move for the party.
But not for the country.
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### Author:  [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)
#### Post date: [April 29, 2016, 11:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-way-the-democratic-establishment-is-treating-bernie-supporters-is-a-blunder/753263/293 "2016-04-29T23:00:48Z")
> [@DSeid](#):
>
> Thank you providing some support for what I have been saying! From your quote:
> Shit. He was actually telling the truth. No one expected _that_! He actually really believed what he was saying he believed. How dare he! What a disappointment!
You are ignoring the part that matters:
> [@](#):
>
> The other things Obama used to say – like when he connected deregulation, corruption, and income inequality in his Cooper Union speech in 2008 – those things were just to reel in the suckers. The suckers being the people who could hear the pillars of their middle-class world snapping. The suckers being the people who could see that the system was crumbling and thought maybe we ought to do something about it.
And how can we expect anything different from Clinton?
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### Author:  [@JKellyMap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JKellyMap)
#### Post date: [April 29, 2016, 11:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-way-the-democratic-establishment-is-treating-bernie-supporters-is-a-blunder/753263/294 "2016-04-29T23:06:38Z")
> [@Procrustus](#):
>
> I’m rather old, white and cranky, and I’m a fan of Bernie. I’m just equally happy with Hillary. It’s a little more complicated than that, of course. Sanders gets more love for more progressive positions and the appearance of being more authentic. Clinton gets a bump for breadth of experience, elect-ability, and what I perceive as an ability to get a little more accomplished.
This.
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### Author:  [@DigitalC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DigitalC)
#### Post date: [April 29, 2016, 11:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-way-the-democratic-establishment-is-treating-bernie-supporters-is-a-blunder/753263/295 "2016-04-29T23:14:19Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#):
>
> And how can we expect anything different from Clinton?
We can’t, because we are not voting for kings. The problem is you think it is their fault and that Bernie would do better when he in fact would do a lot worse.
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### Author:  [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)
#### Post date: [April 29, 2016, 11:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-way-the-democratic-establishment-is-treating-bernie-supporters-is-a-blunder/753263/296 "2016-04-29T23:20:27Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#):
>
> Well, there is a mandate for at least some of those things now, if you look at issue-specific polling questions. Most Americans want single-payer health care, etc., or at least will say so if asked.
Cite?
Obama burned every bit of his political capital, and many Representatives and Senators did the same, to get through a massive change in health insurance, a change that will someday lead to a system of health care that is similar to most other industrialized first-world nations. Even that little step forward has been fought tooth and nail for the last six years. But that’s not enough.
I agree with a lot of Sanders’ goals. Those goals, even if Sanders is elected President, are mostly unachievable right now. Those goals have to be reached incrementally. FDR’s massive changes, and the Democrats who passed that platform, were in a special situation in American history. A situation that we are not in right now, and that I hope we are never in again.
Barring that, we have to work at things piecemeal; two steps forward, one step back, two forward. It’s the nature of American politics.
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### Author:  [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)
#### Post date: [April 29, 2016, 11:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-way-the-democratic-establishment-is-treating-bernie-supporters-is-a-blunder/753263/297 "2016-04-29T23:20:41Z")
> [@DSeid](#):
>
> Of course I also do not believe that this country is fundamentally broken like some here do. I see that it as a functioning machine that needs some parts replaced and some upgrades and that it is in fact doing modestly well dealing with a drastically changing and very challenging world. I believe we are very lucky to have had Obama during this period of time and hope that Clinton will continue the good work.
I think we have some serious issues, but I also don’t ignore things like the huge changes the ACA wrought. So yes, we have been lucky to have someone as measured as Obama, and Clinton will, in my opinion, work in the same vein.
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### Author:  [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)
#### Post date: [April 29, 2016, 11:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-way-the-democratic-establishment-is-treating-bernie-supporters-is-a-blunder/753263/298 "2016-04-29T23:30:47Z")
[Here](http://www.nytimes.com/2008/03/27/us/politics/27text-obama.html?pagewanted=all) is the text of his 2008 Cooper Union speech.
> [@Obama](#):
>
> Our history should give us confidence that we don’t have to choose between an oppressive government-run economy and a chaotic, unforgiving capitalism. It tells us we can emerge from great economic upheavals stronger, not weaker. But we can only do so if we restore confidence in our markets, only if we rebuild trust between investors and lenders, and only if we renew that common interest between Wall Street and Main street that is the key to our long-term success. Now, as most experts agree, our economy is in a recession. To renew our economy and to ensure that we are not doomed to repeat a cycle of bubble and bust again and again and again, we need to address not only the immediate crisis in the housing market, we also need to create a 21st-century regulatory framework and we need to pursue a bold opportunity agenda for the American people. …
>
> … the Dodd-Frank package is not a bailout for lenders or investors who gambled recklessly; they will take their losses. It’s not a windfall for borrowers, as they will have to share any capital gain. Instead, it offers a responsible and fair way to help bring an end to the foreclosure crisis. It asks both sides to sacrifice, while preventing a long-term collapse that could have enormous ramifications for the most responsible lenders and borrowers, as well as the American people as a whole. …
>
> … if you can borrow from the government, you should be subject to government oversight and supervision. …
I’ve reread that speech now a few times and I see nothing in there that could in any way be described as things to reel in the suckers. Did he accomplish everything on that list? No. But as advertised the items he went through in that economic policy speech were what he tried and to some significant degrees accomplished.
It was a speech focused on pragmatic solutions.
Two years later he returned to the same stage; transcript [here](http://www.marketwatch.com/story/full-text-of-president-obamas-cooper-union-speech-2010-04-22):
> [@Obama in 2010](#):
>
> A comprehensive plan to achieve these reforms has passed the House of Representatives. A Senate version is currently being debated, drawing on the ideas of Democrats and Republicans. Both bills represent significant improvement on the flawed rules we have in place today, despite the furious efforts of industry lobbyists to shape them to their special interests. I am sure that many of those lobbyists work for some of you. But I am here today because I want to urge you to join us, instead of fighting us in this effort. I am here because I believe that these reforms are, in the end, not only in the best interest of our country, but in the best interest of our financial sector. And I am here to explain what reform will look like, and why it matters. …
>
> … In the end, our system only works - our markets are only free - when there are basic safeguards that prevent abuse, that check excess, that ensure that it is more profitable to play by the rules than to game the system. And that is what these reforms are designed to achieve: no more, no less. Because that is how we will ensure that our economy works for consumers, that it works for investors, that it works for financial institutions - that it works for all of us.
>
> This is the central lesson not only of this crisis but of our history. It’s what I said when I spoke here two years ago. Ultimately, there is no dividing line between Main Street and Wall Street. We rise or we fall together as one nation. So I urge you to join me - to join those who are seeking to pass these commonsense reforms. And I urge you to do so not only because it is in the interests of your industry, but because it is in the interests of our country.
So simply put, WTF is Thomas Frank going on about other than that he was horrified that Obama actually meant what he said?
I do not expect anything different from Clinton.
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### Author:  [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)
#### Post date: [April 29, 2016, 11:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-way-the-democratic-establishment-is-treating-bernie-supporters-is-a-blunder/753263/299 "2016-04-29T23:48:05Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#):
>
> … or at least will say so if asked.
Oh on this.
And polls showed that more than half of Americans supported Trump’s proposed ban on Muslims entering the United States.
Amazing the things people will say when asked about something that they have not fully analyzed or been given full information about.
Do you want this yummy brownie? Why yes I do. Do you want this yummy brownie that costs $7.99 and has more calories than you need for the whole day? Well, maybe not after all. Do you want to spend all your energy trying to make a yummy brownie that you probably do not have all the ingredients for and not spend time and energy making the main course and sides to eat, or be satisfied with the cake we already bought instead?
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### Author:  [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)
#### Post date: [April 30, 2016, 12:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-way-the-democratic-establishment-is-treating-bernie-supporters-is-a-blunder/753263/300 "2016-04-30T00:07:28Z")
Some details on how that brownie example [plays ou](http://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2016/02/people-have-no-idea-what-single-payer-means/471045/)t for single payer health care.
First, “most Americans” do not endorse single payer … without details a slim plurality does 39 to 33.
Flips to 39 against to only 28 for if such means that their taxes would increase to pay for it.
And illustrating that people are answering without really understanding … also 39 against to 28 for if single payer meant that people had to give up their employer sponsored plans!
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