# The way the Democratic establishment is treating Bernie supporters is a blunder.
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-way-the-democratic-establishment-is-treating-bernie-supporters-is-a-blunder/753263
**Category:** Politics & Elections
**Created:** [April 27, 2016, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-way-the-democratic-establishment-is-treating-bernie-supporters-is-a-blunder/753263 "2016-04-27T16:50:31Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 16
### Author:  [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)
#### Post date: [April 30, 2016, 1:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-way-the-democratic-establishment-is-treating-bernie-supporters-is-a-blunder/753263/301 "2016-04-30T01:32:05Z")
> [@Evil\_Captor](#):
>
> We won’t get there if we wait for Bernie to make it all happen, but I don’t think that’s what’s gonna happen. A LOT of people have seen, because of Bernie’s candidacy, that you can primary from the left. Not everybody is gonna have the machine that Hillary does to counter all the grass-roots activisim out there. It’s going to be money versus people … I’m hoping people will win. You side with money against people. Think about that.
Right, like George McGovern.
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### Author:  [@Lok](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lok)
#### Post date: [April 30, 2016, 2:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-way-the-democratic-establishment-is-treating-bernie-supporters-is-a-blunder/753263/302 "2016-04-30T02:58:20Z")
> [@Procrustus](#):
>
> I’m rather old, white and cranky, and I’m a fan of Bernie. I’m just equally happy with Hillary. It’s a little more complicated than that, of course. Sanders gets more love for more progressive positions and the appearance of being more authentic. Clinton gets a bump for breadth of experience, elect-ability, and what I perceive as an ability to get a little more accomplished.
Yeah, this is pretty much my POV also.
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### Author:  [@ISiddiqui](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ISiddiqui)
#### Post date: [April 30, 2016, 4:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-way-the-democratic-establishment-is-treating-bernie-supporters-is-a-blunder/753263/303 "2016-04-30T04:12:48Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#):
>
> You do things Obama’s way – and do you have any doubt Clinton will? – then you get Obama’s results, with things like a health-care plan that only enables and enriches the rent-seeking health-insurance industry.
Obama’s results are monumental:
> **[Barack Obama is officially one of the most consequential presidents in...](https://www.vox.com/2015/6/26/8849925/obama-obamacare-history-presidents)**
>
> Vox is a general interest news site for the 21st century. Its mission: to help everyone understand our complicated world, so that we can all help shape it. In text, video and audio, our reporters explain politics, policy, world affairs, technology,...
> [@](#):
>
> Its anniversary, then, serves as a crucial reminder that, love him or hate him, Barack Obama is one of the most consequential presidents in American history — and that he will be a particularly towering figure in the history of American progressivism.
>
> He signed into law a comprehensive national health insurance bill, a goal that had eluded progressive presidents for a century. He got surprisingly tough reforms to Wall Street passed as well, not to mention a stimulus package that both blunted the recession and transformed education and energy policy.
>
> He’s put in place the toughest climate rules in American history and signed a major international climate accord. He opened the US to Cuba for the first time in more than half a century, and reached a peaceful settlement to the nuclear standoff with Iran
> [@](#):
>
> “When you add the ACA to the reforms in the stimulus package, Dodd-Frank, and his various climate initiatives,” Pierson says, “I don’t think there is any doubt: On domestic issues Obama is the most consequential and successful Democratic president since LBJ. It isn’t close.”
He wasn’t God-Emperor Obama, so had to compromise and push executive power to get what he wanted, but make no mistake. He did quite an incredible amount. I think Clinton will build upon the good work Obama has done.
If you don’t want to compromise and want to strangle American politics like the Tea-Party by creating a Tea-Party for the Left, then I’d rather have you and your ilk start a new party and not have anything to do with the Democrats. I don’t even want your votes. You and the Tea-Party can compete for childish non-compromise and leave that crap out of the Democratic Party.
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### Author:  [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)
#### Post date: [April 30, 2016, 11:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-way-the-democratic-establishment-is-treating-bernie-supporters-is-a-blunder/753263/304 "2016-04-30T11:18:26Z")
> [@ISiddiqui](#):
>
> Obama’s results are monumental:
>
> [Barack Obama is officially one of the most consequential presidents in American history | Vox](http://www.vox.com/2015/6/26/8849925/obama-obamacare-history-presidents)
>
> He wasn’t God-Emperor Obama, so had to compromise and push executive power to get what he wanted, but make no mistake. He did quite an incredible amount. I think Clinton will build upon the good work Obama has done.
>
> If you don’t want to compromise and want to strangle American politics like the Tea-Party by creating a Tea-Party for the Left, then I’d rather have you and your ilk start a new party and not have anything to do with the Democrats. I don’t even want your votes. You and the Tea-Party can compete for childish non-compromise and leave that crap out of the Democratic Party.
Indeed. I’ve talked about it before, but the ACA is a big deal. It has upended lots of stuff on the health care system, changes that policy makers are just now beginning to grapple with.
And maybe the bigger change is creating a poverty program (through Medicaid expansion) that is not restricted to the “worthy” poor.
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### Author:  [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)
#### Post date: [April 30, 2016, 11:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-way-the-democratic-establishment-is-treating-bernie-supporters-is-a-blunder/753263/305 "2016-04-30T11:59:42Z")
> [@ISiddiqui](#):
>
> If you don’t want to compromise and want to strangle American politics like the Tea-Party by creating a Tea-Party for the Left, then I’d rather have you and your ilk start a new party and not have anything to do with the Democrats. I don’t even want your votes. You and the Tea-Party can compete for childish non-compromise and leave that crap out of the Democratic Party.
Yep, my sentiments exactly.
Bear in mind, I’ve appreciated what Bernie Sanders has done for the progressive cause. I don’t really have a problem with Sanders or even Sanders continuing to run a campaign that focuses on issues, even if it means going all the way to California. He’s earned that, and I think the issues he talks about, even if I don’t necessarily agree on specifics, are broadly in line with what the country needs to consider.
What I object to is what you’ve pointed out among some Bernie Sanders supporters. It seems that some want to ‘teach the moderates a lesson’. They’re just as unreasonable as the Tea Party, and they’re motivated by a sense of moral self-righteousness. Long ago I mentioned that one of the dangers of an extreme right wing is that will ultimately result in an extreme left wing, with both sides being locked in a bitter war of perceived ‘good’ and ‘evil’. If that’s the result, I’ve got some bad news for Bernie Bros: the religious nutbags are going to win that fight every time. You have to conquer extremism by appealing to the reasonable, negotiable, often silent middle.
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### Author:  [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)
#### Post date: [April 30, 2016, 12:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-way-the-democratic-establishment-is-treating-bernie-supporters-is-a-blunder/753263/306 "2016-04-30T12:02:06Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#):
>
> What is he spoiling?
He’s damaging Clinton’s chances, and therefore helping Trump, by continuing to be negative. And so are you and yours, btw.
> [@](#):
>
> The only thing he’s spoiling is the Establishment’s smug confidence in the party’s neoliberal consensus, and that needs spoiling.
Power to the people, man! 😉
> [@](#):
>
> Nader voters were not working within the Democratic Party.
And neither has Sanders himself.
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### Author:  [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)
#### Post date: [April 30, 2016, 2:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-way-the-democratic-establishment-is-treating-bernie-supporters-is-a-blunder/753263/307 "2016-04-30T14:54:08Z")
> [@DSeid](#):
>
> Because I _saw_ it very much _otherwise_. The mainstream media was very much into propping Sanders up as much as possible in order to create a horse race storyline that would keep people clicking and tuning in.
>
> If you think that the business of the media is to do anything other than sell advertising time by being able to report the largest number of eyeball and earpans as possible for as long as possible then I would submit that you may be horribly naive.
We’ve got the figures for Bernie’s miserable coverage on CCN vs. Trump early on. Seems to me that if the media wanted a horse race they would have, you know, covered that other horse early on. It was all they had, really, and yet they didn’t bother. Why? Because they wanted to bury Bernie to support Clinton.
Then there’s the little matter of the way all the mainstream media kept including Hillary’s superdelegate totals in the counts of delegates, without even separating them out, thus making it appear that Hillary had a MUCH bigger lead then she actually had. Because those superdelegates can switch votes right up until the convention. And in fact, in the previous election, they DID switch at the convention, going with Barack Obama.
Now why would experienced broadcasters like CNN, NBC, ABC and CBS make a mistake like that unless they were trying to make Hillary’s lead look insurmountagble, hmmm?
Your theory holds NO water, sir.
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### Author:  [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)
#### Post date: [April 30, 2016, 2:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-way-the-democratic-establishment-is-treating-bernie-supporters-is-a-blunder/753263/308 "2016-04-30T14:55:21Z")
> [@DrDeth](#):
>
> The out of date and unfair caucus system, the only thing that gave Bernie a chance? Rigging- in Sanders favor.
>
> Rhode island? Are you fucking kidding us?
> [http://thinkprogress.org/politics/2016/04/22/3771913/rhode-island-primary-election/](http://thinkprogress.org/politics/2016/04/22/3771913/rhode-island-primary-election/)
>
> “According to the Boston Globe, _Rhode Island routinely closes polling locations during presidential primaries_ “to keep costs low during an election that usually sees few voters.” …
> _The precinct consolidations were announced back in January_, …” Italics mine. So, it’s _routine,_ and announced before Bernie was a serious candidate. There’s no fucking way this was done by the Dem power brokers to shush Bernie as no one had _any fucking idea that Bernie would be this popular back in January_. And Sanders could have won 100% of Rhode \*Fucking \*Islands huge 24 delegates and it would have made _no difference at all._ So, no, not “rigging”. Absolutely, 100% proven in the case of RI.
So, the fix was in back in January. You think that makes it anything less of a fix? Really?
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### Author:  [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)
#### Post date: [April 30, 2016, 2:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-way-the-democratic-establishment-is-treating-bernie-supporters-is-a-blunder/753263/309 "2016-04-30T14:57:28Z")
> [@ISiddiqui](#):
>
> All I can think of is Christine O’Donnell and how the Tea Party threw away a safe GOP Senate seat away to force a Centrist off the ticket. Like I said, I hope the establishment Democratic party has more of a spine than the establishment GOP… but since when has the Democratic party ever had much of a spine?
>
> My response to the threats of Tea Party-ism is form your own fucking party and don’t let the door hit your ass on the way out. If you think we can’t survive without you, put your money where your mouth is and try to prove it.
I’ll file that advice in the appropriate receptacle.
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### Author:  [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)
#### Post date: [April 30, 2016, 3:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-way-the-democratic-establishment-is-treating-bernie-supporters-is-a-blunder/753263/310 "2016-04-30T15:05:02Z")
> [@Evil\_Captor](#):
>
> We won’t get there if we wait for Bernie to make it all happen, but I don’t think that’s what’s gonna happen. A LOT of people have seen, because of Bernie’s candidacy, that you can primary from the left. Not everybody is gonna have the machine that Hillary does to counter all the grass-roots activisim out there.\*\* It’s going to be money versus people … I’m hoping people will win.\*\*\*\* You side with money against people. \*\*Think about that.
I really don’t see how you’re siding with “the people” when you support Bernie and “money” when you support Hillary?
Hillary has had far, far more people vote for her than Bernie and that’s especially true of people who don’t exactly come from “money”.
Additionally, the only reason the race in terms of delegates is even as close as it is is because Bernie cleaned up in the caucus states which are vastly less egalitarian and vastly less democratic than the primary states and pander to people who have lots of time on their hands.
So, why isn’t Hillary the candidate of “the people” since the vast majority of the “the people” side with her?
Moreover, all these complaints about the “Clinton machine” ignore that she had this same machine in place back in 2008 and not only did Obama clean her clock, but he never was once behind her in pledged delegates in 2008.
The Clinton machine is not nearly as strong as people think and frankly I’m more than a little nervous about the race coming down to her versus Trump.
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### Author:  [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)
#### Post date: [April 30, 2016, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-way-the-democratic-establishment-is-treating-bernie-supporters-is-a-blunder/753263/311 "2016-04-30T15:10:31Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#):
>
> Yes, this. Apologies if this has already been posted, but Kevin Drum [wrote a great piece](http://m.motherjones.com/kevin-drum/2016/04/heres-why-i-never-warmed-bernie-sanders)on Mother Jones about how Bernie has basically been running a con, like a weight loss pill you might see advertised on late night TV.
If everything is so hunky-dory, Slacker (and I’d address this to Drum as well if he were around) why do you think the lower middle and lower class whilte male demographic of middle age is suddenly dying younger than ever before? If things are coming up roses for everyone, why are middle aged white men dying younger?
I’ll tell you why: the effects of wealth inequality are hitting, and it’s hollowing out American society from the inside. Sure, unemployment is low, but that’s the OFFICIAL unemployment figures. It doesn’t count the underemployed and those who’ve just given up. The American dream is dying on the vine.
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### Author:  [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)
#### Post date: [April 30, 2016, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-way-the-democratic-establishment-is-treating-bernie-supporters-is-a-blunder/753263/312 "2016-04-30T15:52:54Z")
> [@](#):
>
> U-3, total unemployed, as a percent of the civilian labor force (this is the definition used for the official unemployment rate)
> …
> U-6, total unemployed, plus all marginally attached workers, plus total employed part time for economic reasons, as a percent of the civilian labor force plus all marginally attached workers.
In 2012 U-3 was 8.1%, U-6 was 14.7%
[http://www.bls.gov/lau/stalt12q4.htm](http://www.bls.gov/lau/stalt12q4.htm)
In 2015 U-3 was 5.3% and U-6 was 10.4%
[http://www.bls.gov/lau/stalt15q4.htm](http://www.bls.gov/lau/stalt15q4.htm)
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### Author:  [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)
#### Post date: [April 30, 2016, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-way-the-democratic-establishment-is-treating-bernie-supporters-is-a-blunder/753263/313 "2016-04-30T16:02:35Z")
> [@Evil\_Captor](#):
>
> So, the fix was in back in January. You think that makes it anything less of a fix? Really?
It really is possible that most Democratic voters have chosen to support Clinton _on the merits_. Really.
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### Author:  [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)
#### Post date: [April 30, 2016, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-way-the-democratic-establishment-is-treating-bernie-supporters-is-a-blunder/753263/314 "2016-04-30T16:10:31Z")
> [@](#):
>
> U-4, total unemployed plus discouraged workers, as a percent of the civilian labor force plus discouraged workers;
2012 U-4 was 8.6% (meaning subtracting from U-3 gives .5% discouraged workers)
2015 U-4 was 5.7% (.4% discouraged workers)
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### Author:  [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)
#### Post date: [April 30, 2016, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-way-the-democratic-establishment-is-treating-bernie-supporters-is-a-blunder/753263/315 "2016-04-30T17:03:39Z")
> [@DigitalC](#):
>
> Compromise is how the government works. It is the ONLY way it works. This guys complaint seems to be “wait, he was serious about that compromise shit?”, which is a fucking positive and not something we should discourage.
>
> Of course people want those things, me included. But when a guy is telling you he can deliver them he is either delusional or bullshiting you.
Tell that all the black people who can vote now. Tell it to the gays that can get married now. Change can happen very quickly, but it will NEVER happen if you aren’t TRYING to make it happen. That’s the difference between Bernie and Hillary. He would TRY to make things happen. Hillary is a Wall Street finger puppet.
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### Author:  [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)
#### Post date: [April 30, 2016, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-way-the-democratic-establishment-is-treating-bernie-supporters-is-a-blunder/753263/316 "2016-04-30T17:09:43Z")
In case it wasn’t obvious my last two posts were directed at this:
> [@Evil\_Captor](#):
>
> . Sure, unemployment is low, but that’s the OFFICIAL unemployment figures. It doesn’t count the underemployed and those who’ve just given up. The American dream is dying on the vine.
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### Author:  [@Nonsuch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nonsuch)
#### Post date: [April 30, 2016, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-way-the-democratic-establishment-is-treating-bernie-supporters-is-a-blunder/753263/317 "2016-04-30T17:43:22Z")
> [@Evil\_Captor](#):
>
> Tell that all the black people who can vote now. Tell it to the gays that can get married now. Change can happen very quickly, but it will NEVER happen if you aren’t TRYING to make it happen. That’s the difference between Bernie and Hillary. He would TRY to make things happen. Hillary is a Wall Street finger puppet.
The civil rights movement succeeded because of years of hard, anonymous and often dangerous behind-the-scenes work, by people who had no guarantee they would even live to see their movement succeed. It was NOT achieved by quixotic presidential candidates who believe they’re so awesome they can simply steamroll the entrenched opposition.
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### Author:  [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)
#### Post date: [April 30, 2016, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-way-the-democratic-establishment-is-treating-bernie-supporters-is-a-blunder/753263/318 "2016-04-30T18:27:51Z")
> [@Nonsuch](#):
>
> The civil rights movement succeeded because of years of hard, anonymous and often dangerous behind-the-scenes work, by people who had no guarantee they would even live to see their movement succeed. It was NOT achieved by quixotic presidential candidates who believe they’re so awesome they can simply steamroll the entrenched opposition.
Oh, yah, and the progressive movement hasn’t existed for all these years? The conservatives labored without apparent success for decades before Ronald Reagan took over. Saint Ronnie didn’t happen in a vacuum, neither has Saint Bernie.
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### Author:  [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)
#### Post date: [April 30, 2016, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-way-the-democratic-establishment-is-treating-bernie-supporters-is-a-blunder/753263/319 "2016-04-30T19:14:09Z")
> [@Evil\_Captor](#):
>
> So, the fix was in back in January. You think that makes it anything less of a fix? Really?
No one had any idea that Sanders would be a viable candidate in January. So, if there was a "fix’ then I wish they’d lend me their crystal balls to check Lotto numbers.:rolleyes: And, not only did they see this coming back in January, they saw it coming in 2012, 2008, 2004, 2002, and so forth, as they do this every four years for the primaries, no matter who the candidates are.
It’s ludicrous to assume somehow this was the “Democratic machine” “fixing” the election vs Sanders. :dubious:
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### Author:  [@Ulf\_the\_Unwashed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ulf_the_Unwashed)
#### Post date: [April 30, 2016, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-way-the-democratic-establishment-is-treating-bernie-supporters-is-a-blunder/753263/320 "2016-04-30T20:06:46Z")
Regarding RI polling places being closed just to “get” Sanders, this is of course just one of many narratives constructed by (some) Sanders supporters to allege massive electoral fraud. People being removed from the rolls in New York–evidence of massive, organized anti-Sanders fraud. Involuntary changes in party registration in Arizona, along with fewer polling places, long lines, and the media calling the state for Clinton while people were still standing in line–evidence of massive, organized anti-Sanders fraud. Exit polls not always agreeing with the official vote tallies–evidence of… It gets tiresome.
The trouble really is cognitive dissonance on the part of these supporters. Sanders is by far the best candidate, they say, so everyone except the moneyed interests should support him. Plus which, he gets 20,000 people at rallies, and Clinton gets what, 500 at most? It seems intuitively obvious under these circumstances that “everybody” really DOES support Sanders. In which case, why is Clinton ahead? Well, it can’t be entirely through fair means; that doesn’t make sense. So it must be through foul.
It’s the same thing that makes certain Sanders supporters say things like blacks are “low information voters.” I think someone earlier in the thread called it “tragic” that blacks didn’t like Sanders very much. Presumptuous of course, and deeply arrogant; but it illustrates the same thing: \*everyone \*(except the moneyed interests) should like Sanders, and should vote for Sanders, and if some people aren’t voting for him, it’s their own damn fault, it’s because they’re just not paying attention or not even aware of what their own interests are.
Anyway, it’s the fault of the folks who run the elections for stealing and suppressing votes, and it’s the fault of the media for not giving Sanders any coverage, and it’s the fault of black and Hispanic voters for not knowing enough to support the best choice, and it’s the fault of the establishment politicians for backing Hillary instead of Bernie even though Sanders is clearly the better candidate, and it’s the fault of organizations like Planned Parenthood which aren’t really “progressive” at all…
If your candidate’s message isn’t translating into votes, especially among people you think “ought” to be voting for you, then you can say one of two things:
\*Option A: “Hmm, we’re not reaching group x, what are we doing wrong? How can we tweak our message, change our approach, redeploy our resources to bring them into the fold?”
\*Option B: Or you can say, “Hmm, we’re not reaching group x, what are they doing wrong? The whole system must be stacked against us.”
I suspect that if you look at successful campaigns you’ll see a lot of Option A going on. Sanders himself, to an extent, seems to prefer Option B, and certainly some of his staunchest supporters do too.
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