# The way the Democratic establishment is treating Bernie supporters is a blunder. **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [April 27, 2016, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-way-the-democratic-establishment-is-treating-bernie-supporters-is-a-blunder/753263 "2016-04-27T16:50:31Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![ISiddiqui](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/97f17d/32.png) [@ISiddiqui](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ISiddiqui)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2016, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-way-the-democratic-establishment-is-treating-bernie-supporters-is-a-blunder/753263/81 "2016-04-27T19:51:55Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > You believe that Bernie is better on these issues, but that doesn’t mean that it’s a fact. I trust that most black voters are as well informed as most white voters, and I see no evidence to the contrary. Not only that, but it is my opinion that black voters reject that entire narrative - that focusing on economic issues is the best way to deal with racial issues. A lot of people think that is just nonsense. That even if you had (magically) everything Sanders’ dreamed of in dealing with class issues, there would STILL be racism in in the world. The same dynamic that means, for instance, a white person with a criminal record is just as likely to get a job as a black person without a criminal record isn’t going to go away with better class focused solutions. African-Americans that I know realize this and appreciate that Clinton calls out racism as its own important issue. You may call it focusing on identity politics, but it isn’t because they saw a name they knew and went for it. That is just as offensive, if not more so, than any charge leveled at millennials. ---
**Author:** ![ISiddiqui](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/97f17d/32.png) [@ISiddiqui](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ISiddiqui)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2016, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-way-the-democratic-establishment-is-treating-bernie-supporters-is-a-blunder/753263/82 "2016-04-27T19:57:21Z")
I’d also like to ask on this: > [@SenorBeef](#): > > They voted for Obama because he promised hope and change and seemed like a different sort of politician - not at all business as usual. And they were disappointed, he mostly governed as though he were a firm part of the establishment. We can argue about Obama’s success as a president, but he certainly wasn’t the radically different candidate that a lot of his supporters hoped. > > So this time around they turned to a guy who no one can doubt his credentials as something different, as anti-establishment. Are we sure that the Obama voters in 2008 are the Sanders voters in 2016? Because it doesn’t really seem all that apparent to me. Especially African-American and Hispanic voters didn’t follow that path, but I’m not sure that others did either. And of course anyone that is 25 or younger couldn’t do that either (they would have been under 18 when Obama was nominated in 2008) Which, in that case, the narrative doesn’t particularly hold up. In addition, at the rick of “writing them off” or what-have-you, they don’t understand politics if they don’t understand that Obama did what he could do. The new hope and change kind of politics he offered, btw, was a new way of working together with the other side to get important things done. And we know what the House Republicans thought of that. If you blame Obama for that, then… when I won’t say you are childish, but I’m not sure what you would rather have since she don’t have magic wands lying about. ---
**Author:** ![NVME702-redux](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a183cd/32.png) [@NVME702-redux](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NVME702-redux)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2016, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-way-the-democratic-establishment-is-treating-bernie-supporters-is-a-blunder/753263/83 "2016-04-27T20:01:00Z")
> [@Disgruntled\_Penguin](#): > > So you don’t believe that anyone should be treated as idiot children but calling them such is the most effective way to consolodate with them? > > As for the point about changes not occurring in one cycle, while that undoubtably is true I can’t help smiling at the irony is that this is exactly the cause of the Republican party imploding against itself. They’ve heard that tune too many times. I’m sure though that by treating your supporters as idiot children will consolodate them and that the party will avoid a similar fate. I don’t believe I called anyone an idiot child. But I can say that the actions are childish and idiotic- again the actions being “I don’t like that my candidate didn’t get the nod, so I’m staying home” there is a lot at stake here, worth more than the noble thought of “I vote for myself and not the greater good”. I am no longer able to have children-so maybe reproductive rights don’t speak directly to me, but I certainly don’t like the idea of SCOTUS getting a conservative Justice if the Dem’s do not prevail in November- I vote for greater good of all concerned- not just how it will benefit me- again this is where concession, compromise and the promise of taking a step in the right direction lead to. ---
**Author:** ![Airbeck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/airbeck/32/6574_2.png) [@Airbeck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airbeck)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2016, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-way-the-democratic-establishment-is-treating-bernie-supporters-is-a-blunder/753263/84 "2016-04-27T20:01:23Z")
> [@Disgruntled\_Penguin](#): > > In any case, I’ve already stated that I don’t support bad behavior on either faction but I’ve only got one vote not to cast. You are way more dedicated to your candidate than I am to mine though. I would not crawl over glass to vote for Bernie even if I could. > > That’s part of my thinking. I’m deescalating my concern for the game of politics. I think I’ll live better. I’ll still follow it, I am a junkie but I realize that the world survives if I check out of the process for a while. Bearing the weight of the future of humanity itself on your shoulders is quite tiring. I’ll let others take that burdon, crawl over the glass and save us all for the next four years when it will all start over again. The crawling over broken glass would not be due to how much I love Hillary, but how much I loathe Trump/Cruz, how disastrous either one would be as president, and how important the Supreme Court is. I’d just as gladly vote for Bernie if he were the nominee. ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2016, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-way-the-democratic-establishment-is-treating-bernie-supporters-is-a-blunder/753263/85 "2016-04-27T20:02:54Z")
> [@ISiddiqui](#): > > …even if you had (magically) everything Sanders’ dreamed of in dealing with class issues, there would STILL be racism in the world. Of course. I don’t think Bernie Sanders would disagree with this, either. (You _would_ have a fairer field, and more empowered minorities to fight it, though.) > [@ISiddiqui](#): > > African-Americans that I know realize this and appreciate that Clinton calls out racism as its own important issue. Apart from “calling out” on campaign, before certain audiences… would you say that Clinton’s record on race issues is strongly net positive? What’s the most convincing evidence of this? ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2016, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-way-the-democratic-establishment-is-treating-bernie-supporters-is-a-blunder/753263/86 "2016-04-27T20:04:12Z")
> [@ISiddiqui](#): > > Are we sure that the Obama voters in 2008 are the Sanders voters in 2016? Many attacks I’ve seen on Clinton include attacks on Obama and I’ve seen polls that people who approve of Obama now are more likely to support Clinton. But I don’t think I’ve seen polls of people who supported Obama in 2008/2012 to know where they landed. ---
**Author:** ![Disgruntled\_Penguin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a8b319/32.png) [@Disgruntled\_Penguin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Disgruntled_Penguin)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2016, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-way-the-democratic-establishment-is-treating-bernie-supporters-is-a-blunder/753263/87 "2016-04-27T20:05:54Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Karl Rove and Donald Trump thank you for you support. Yawn, the fear card. I’ve already stated many times how I feel about that one. It’s supremely silly in this case since I’m in Arizona. I’m quite sure that losing that vote is going to be the deal breaker and insure a Trump victory in my state, nay you have stated my very counrty. Now, if many people did that, maybe but I have not advocated that others do that as I’ve stated in this thread.Tell me, how am I the fulcrum upon which the election depends? If it was that cut and dry the votes would not be 50/50 with me being the tiebreaker. Surely, if things are so dire you could convince people who are not me. You only need one more to offset my vote. But, if Trump does want to thank me he can use cash. I have a feeling I could use it if he does become president. If he wins though, it’s not me that’s going to be the reason. The reason will be that the democratic party could not convince enough voters to win the day. Mine will just be one of many if that happens and the vast majority of these voters aren’t going to mind being thanked. ---
**Author:** ![Disgruntled\_Penguin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a8b319/32.png) [@Disgruntled\_Penguin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Disgruntled_Penguin)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2016, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-way-the-democratic-establishment-is-treating-bernie-supporters-is-a-blunder/753263/88 "2016-04-27T20:08:52Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > Many attacks I’ve seen on Clinton include attacks on Obama and I’ve seen polls that people who approve of Obama now are more likely to support Clinton. But I don’t think I’ve seen polls of people who supported Obama in 2008/2012 to know where they landed. I’ve been an Obama supporter the whole time. I’d vote for him again if it were legal. ---
**Author:** ![Airbeck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/airbeck/32/6574_2.png) [@Airbeck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airbeck)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2016, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-way-the-democratic-establishment-is-treating-bernie-supporters-is-a-blunder/753263/89 "2016-04-27T20:12:58Z")
> [@Disgruntled\_Penguin](#): > > I’ve been an Obama supporter the whole time. I’d vote for him again if it were legal. … and yet you refuse to vote for someone that would basically continue those same policies? I mean its a free country, and you are entitled to use your vote in any way you wish, or not at all. I just don’t understand why you wouldn’t vote to continue on the same policy path that you admit you’ve been a fan of for the last 8 years. There’s some kind of disconnect here that I’m not able to figure out. ---
**Author:** ![ISiddiqui](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/97f17d/32.png) [@ISiddiqui](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ISiddiqui)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2016, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-way-the-democratic-establishment-is-treating-bernie-supporters-is-a-blunder/753263/90 "2016-04-27T20:18:15Z")
> [@Peremensoe](#): > > Apart from “calling out” on campaign, before certain audiences… would you say that Clinton’s record on race issues is strongly net positive? What’s the most convincing evidence of this? I would say that Clinton’s record on race issues is in the mainstream of the Democratic Party. But in her campaign she has put some emphases on it; her first speech in this campaign was on criminal justice reform. I think African-American voters trust more that she has it as a separate policy focus rather than an appearance from the Sanders’ campaign that racial issues will get better when class concerns were handled. Rather than picking which name they know, they are making the choice based on the notion that Clinton would make racial issues more of a priority than Sanders would. ---
**Author:** ![Disgruntled\_Penguin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a8b319/32.png) [@Disgruntled\_Penguin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Disgruntled_Penguin)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2016, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-way-the-democratic-establishment-is-treating-bernie-supporters-is-a-blunder/753263/91 "2016-04-27T20:18:33Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > But it sounds like you’re saying (and correct me if I’m just not getting it) that in all primaries people are mean to people who are on their side of the aisle, and that Sanders supporters are being mean to Clinton supporters, but that you’re refusing to vote for Clinton because Clinton supporters are also mean to Sanders supporters. > > If supporters being mean disqualifies a candidate, then Sanders would also be disqualified, wouldn’t he? No, it’s supports being mean to me that disqualifies a candidate to me. I’d understand if Bernie won the primary and a Clinton supporter opted not to vote for him. I don’t feel obligated to support people who are mean to me. If they’re so scared of the enemy they’d be nicer to me, someone who supports them not be mean to me because I have no choice but to take it because we may have a common enemy. It makes me wonder why I should trust you since you clearly are not a friend either just a rude ally. ---
**Author:** ![Airbeck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/airbeck/32/6574_2.png) [@Airbeck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airbeck)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2016, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-way-the-democratic-establishment-is-treating-bernie-supporters-is-a-blunder/753263/92 "2016-04-27T20:24:16Z")
> [@Disgruntled\_Penguin](#): > > No, it’s supports being mean to me that disqualifies a candidate to me. I’d understand if Bernie won the primary and a Clinton supporter opted not to vote for him. I don’t feel obligated to support people who are mean to me. If they’re so scared of the enemy they’d be nicer to me, someone who supports them not be mean to me because I have no choice but to take it because we may have a common enemy. It makes me wonder why I should trust you since you clearly are not a friend either just a rude ally. It seems like you are personalizing all of this way too much. What Clinton supporter has been mean to you personally? Can you paste any mean direct messages you’ve gotten from any Clinton supporters? You used the word ‘me’ 6 times in this paragraph. I have a feeling that you’re taking anything anyone ever says about Bernie or his supporters as some personal attack on you in particular. Politics is a rough business, if you take everything that is said that personally, I’m not surprised you want to just check out at this point. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2016, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-way-the-democratic-establishment-is-treating-bernie-supporters-is-a-blunder/753263/93 "2016-04-27T20:26:15Z")
> [@Peremensoe](#): > > Apart from “calling out” on campaign, before certain audiences… would you say that Clinton’s record on race issues is strongly net positive? What’s the most convincing evidence of this? A mix of bad and good, leading to a result of neutral to good, with a multiplier that she delves into racial issues more often than some. I would say Sanders is neutral, and for good or ill does not appear to think of racial issues as a major separate category of issue. ---
**Author:** ![Disgruntled\_Penguin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a8b319/32.png) [@Disgruntled\_Penguin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Disgruntled_Penguin)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2016, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-way-the-democratic-establishment-is-treating-bernie-supporters-is-a-blunder/753263/94 "2016-04-27T20:27:12Z")
> [@Airbeck](#): > > … and yet you refuse to vote for someone that would basically continue those same policies? > > I mean its a free country, and you are entitled to use your vote in any way you wish, or not at all. I just don’t understand why you wouldn’t vote to continue on the same policy path that you admit you’ve been a fan of for the last 8 years. There’s some kind of disconnect here that I’m not able to figure out. Well, I’m not anti Hillary but I do not believe she would basically continue Obama’s policies. Bill didn’t. He tacked as far right as he could and not alienate the party. He was a centrist and I believe she is as well. Obama is not a status quo guy. He does stuff. Like health care. He took the challenge on and saw it through. Didn’t Hillary try to do something similar? How did that work again. Plus, there’s no way she could get anything done because the one thing the right hates more than a muslim is a Clinton. I really am concerned that a vote for Hillary is a vote for gridlock. Unless she gets at least the Senate I can’t see how she’s gong to get anything done. She doesn’t strike me as an executive orders kind of person. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2016, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-way-the-democratic-establishment-is-treating-bernie-supporters-is-a-blunder/753263/95 "2016-04-27T20:29:32Z")
> [@Disgruntled\_Penguin](#): > > No, it’s supports being mean to me that disqualifies a candidate to me. I’d understand if Bernie won the primary and a Clinton supporter opted not to vote for him. I don’t feel obligated to support people who are mean to me. If they’re so scared of the enemy they’d be nicer to me, someone who supports them not be mean to me because I have no choice but to take it because we may have a common enemy. It makes me wonder why I should trust you since you clearly are not a friend either just a rude ally. Okay. Is it okay if someone is mean to me? If you’re okay with someone being mean to me, does that mean you are not my friend? ---
**Author:** ![Nonsuch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nonsuch/32/2922_2.png) [@Nonsuch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nonsuch)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2016, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-way-the-democratic-establishment-is-treating-bernie-supporters-is-a-blunder/753263/96 "2016-04-27T20:30:30Z")
> [@Disgruntled\_Penguin](#): > > Obama is not a status quo guy. He does stuff. Like health care. He took the challenge on and saw it through. Didn’t Hillary try to do something similar? How did that work again. So how can you say in one breath that Hillary tried to reform healthcare, and then turn around and accuse her of wanting to maintain the status quo? And how does trying and failing to pass a comprehensive national healthcare plan _disqualify_ someone as a progressive? ---
**Author:** ![Lightnin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lightnin/32/180_2.png) [@Lightnin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lightnin)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2016, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-way-the-democratic-establishment-is-treating-bernie-supporters-is-a-blunder/753263/97 "2016-04-27T20:30:32Z")
I used to like Hillary. Then she went negative against Obama, and I stopped liking her quite so much. So this election, I started out leaning towards Bernie. But then I started seeing his supporters _everywhere_. Not necessarily because there were more of them than Clinton’s supporters, but because they were so very loud. And, to be honest, assholes. They dominated some of the other fora I visit, so much so that I stopped going there. You know how you can spot a Sanders supporter on Facebook? Wait ten minutes and they’ll tell you. Repeatedly. There were so many lies and inconsistencies in the attacks on Hillary. Gradually, I got tired of having to constantly defend Clinton. And I got tired of having to constantly defend my defense of her. It was _exhausting_. So, congratulations, Berniebots, BernieBros, BernieSupporters, BernieWhatevers- you win. You’ve convinced me to vote for a candidate- just not the one you intended. Now I’m happy to see that Bernie’s done. I can’t wait for Bernie to finally admit it. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2016, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-way-the-democratic-establishment-is-treating-bernie-supporters-is-a-blunder/753263/98 "2016-04-27T20:31:41Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > Okay. Is it okay if someone is mean to me? If you’re okay with someone being mean to me, does that mean you are not my friend? Overall, the Sandernistas were meaner than the Clintonistas. It was a campaign. They were foes. Now they are going to shake hands, hug and declare war on trump (or Cruz). Bernie would want you to support whoever got the nomination. (So would Hilary. ) Do you respect Bernies views or not? ---
**Author:** ![Airbeck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/airbeck/32/6574_2.png) [@Airbeck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airbeck)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2016, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-way-the-democratic-establishment-is-treating-bernie-supporters-is-a-blunder/753263/99 "2016-04-27T20:35:44Z")
> [@Disgruntled\_Penguin](#): > > Well, I’m not anti Hillary but I do not believe she would basically continue Obama’s policies. Bill didn’t. He tacked as far right as he could and not alienate the party. He was a centrist and I believe she is as well. Obama is not a status quo guy. He does stuff. Like health care. He took the challenge on and saw it through. Didn’t Hillary try to do something similar? How did that work again. > > Plus, there’s no way she could get anything done because the one thing the right hates more than a muslim is a Clinton. I really am concerned that a vote for Hillary is a vote for gridlock. Unless she gets at least the Senate I can’t see how she’s gong to get anything done. She doesn’t strike me as an executive orders kind of person. You think its possible for congress to be more intransigent than it has been for Obama? Really? How could they be? Hillary (as First Lady) tried to come up with a healthcare solution in the 90s. Her work on that, coupled with the alternative that the Republicans came up with (which was essentially what Massachusetts enacted), and with a short period of having both houses of congress led to the possibility of getting the ACA passed. Without Hillary doing that in the 90s we don’t have the ACA today. So you think having Hillary elected will lead to gridlock, but is that better or worse than Trump getting to do whatever he wants with a compliant congress? (not that I agree that gridlock under Clinton would be worse than it has been under Obama. Especially true if the Democrats can take the Senate as well) ---
**Author:** ![Disgruntled\_Penguin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a8b319/32.png) [@Disgruntled\_Penguin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Disgruntled_Penguin)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2016, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-way-the-democratic-establishment-is-treating-bernie-supporters-is-a-blunder/753263/100 "2016-04-27T20:38:50Z")
> [@Airbeck](#): > > It seems like you are personalizing all of this way too much. What Clinton supporter has been mean to you personally? Can you paste any mean direct messages you’ve gotten from any Clinton supporters? You used the word ‘me’ 6 times in this paragraph. I have a feeling that you’re taking anything anyone ever says about Bernie or his supporters as some personal attack on you in particular. Politics is a rough business, if you take everything that is said that personally, I’m not surprised you want to just check out at this point. I’ve already stated that no one has been mean to me personally but for me politics is not personal. Most of the issues I feel strongly about really aren’t personal they’re about everybody else. I’m not progressive because I’m personally disadvantaged by the status quo. I’m progressive because I know that they suck for others and they’re not fair. It’s about principles rather than personal. That’s what drives me. I can’t vote for republicans because they oppose my principles not because they do anything to me personally. If it were personal I would hold my nose and vote for whichever candidate helped me personally. Since I’m voting to help others, when said others are obnoxious I don’t feel compelled to support them. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-way-the-democratic-establishment-is-treating-bernie-supporters-is-a-blunder/753263.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-way-the-democratic-establishment-is-treating-bernie-supporters-is-a-blunder/753263.md?page=6)