# The way the Democratic establishment is treating Bernie supporters is a blunder. **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [April 27, 2016, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-way-the-democratic-establishment-is-treating-bernie-supporters-is-a-blunder/753263 "2016-04-27T16:50:31Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2016, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-way-the-democratic-establishment-is-treating-bernie-supporters-is-a-blunder/753263/101 "2016-04-27T20:38:53Z")
> [@Lightnin](#): > > I used to like Hillary. Then she went negative against Obama, and I stopped liking her quite so much. Not liking a candidate for the candidate’s behavior makes total sense to me. And I understand how hard it is not to feel like a candidate’s supporters’ behavior tarnishes the candidate, but I think it’s really dangerous not to try to keep them separate. No one has angelic supporters. Both Clinton and Sanders (and holy fuck all of the GOP) have giant asshole supporters. And they both (and yes, all of the GOP) have lots of very nice, good people as well. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2016, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-way-the-democratic-establishment-is-treating-bernie-supporters-is-a-blunder/753263/102 "2016-04-27T20:45:20Z")
> [@Disgruntled\_Penguin](#): > > Since I’m voting to help others, when said others are obnoxious I don’t feel compelled to support them. I’m hoping I’m not reading this correctly. You would be voting to help the disadvantaged, and you feel your vote for Clinton would help the disadvantaged? But because some Clinton supporters have been obnoxious, you feel that you no longer have any obligation to help the disadvantaged? Am I misreading you? ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2016, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-way-the-democratic-establishment-is-treating-bernie-supporters-is-a-blunder/753263/103 "2016-04-27T20:48:27Z")
The OP is funny. Progressives and communists aren’t leaving the Democrat plantation. Where else do they get, at the very least, a pretense of pandering and a bit of cheese? ---
**Author:** ![Disgruntled\_Penguin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a8b319/32.png) [@Disgruntled\_Penguin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Disgruntled_Penguin)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2016, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-way-the-democratic-establishment-is-treating-bernie-supporters-is-a-blunder/753263/104 "2016-04-27T20:55:15Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > Okay. Is it okay if someone is mean to me? If you’re okay with someone being mean to me, does that mean you are not my friend? Well, how do you feel about them being mean to you? I’ve worked customer service, I’ve had a plethora of people being mean to me. You know what, that was ok to me. It wasn’t personal. I really can’t answer your question though. I feel bad when people are mean to people who are not my friends as well. I think being mean sucks and I don’t want anyone else to be the victims of it. Now, it doesn’t mean I run around being a white knight about it but I certainly can disapprove of something that I find wrong. ] Ill admit that I don’t know where you were going with this question. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Lowry](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e95f7d/32.png) [@Sam\_Lowry](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Lowry)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2016, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-way-the-democratic-establishment-is-treating-bernie-supporters-is-a-blunder/753263/105 "2016-04-27T20:56:07Z")
> [@Disgruntled\_Penguin](#): > > Well, I’m not anti Hillary but I do not believe she would basically continue Obama’s policies. Bill didn’t. He tacked as far right as he could and not alienate the party. He was a centrist and I believe she is as well. Obama is not a status quo guy. He does stuff. Like health care. He took the challenge on and saw it through. Didn’t Hillary try to do something similar? How did that work again. > > Plus, there’s no way she could get anything done because the one thing the right hates more than a muslim is a Clinton. I really am concerned that a vote for Hillary is a vote for gridlock. Unless she gets at least the Senate I can’t see how she’s gong to get anything done. She doesn’t strike me as an executive orders kind of person. Why do you think Hillary’s policies would align more with Bill’s than with Obama’s? She did have a role in Bill’s White House, but that was 16 years ago in a different climate, and her role in Obama’s White House was much more official and recent. I’m sure Bill has a role but I don’t see any reason that her presidency would be a copy of Bill’s. I also didn’t think that Bill went hard right, but I wasn’t able to vote or much interested in politics during Bill’s terms. ---
**Author:** ![Nonsuch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nonsuch/32/2922_2.png) [@Nonsuch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nonsuch)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2016, 9:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-way-the-democratic-establishment-is-treating-bernie-supporters-is-a-blunder/753263/106 "2016-04-27T21:06:20Z")
Getting back to the OP: > [@SenorBeef](#): > > To these people, Hillary Clinton is the worst candidate. She is the polar opposite in this regard. She’s a slimey politician who lies every day, who evades, who changes her opinions when her focus groups tell her so. She’s been in bed with the financial sector of our economy our whole career. She’s as bought as any politician can be. She is, through and through, a tool of the establishment and a crony. You’re quite right in that many people (and you personally, I suppose) see Clinton in exactly these terms. But respect is a two-way street. As a Hillary supporter, why — how, even? — am I supposed to find rapprochement with people who believe such a cartoonish, mustache-twirling caricature? To the people you describe, Hillary Clinton is not a well-meaning if flawed public servant who, for all her missteps, generally acts from a sincere desire to make things better for as many people as she can. They see her as a bought-and-paid for oligarchical stooge, whose sole aim is to enrich herself while handing over as much of the country as she can into the hands of the wealthy elite. Which basically makes those of us who support her either venal or stupid. (I see, from this thread and [other sources](http://www.slate.com/blogs/xx_factor/2016/04/20/many_hillary_clinton_supporters_in_new_york_kept_their_allegiances_quiet.html), that I am not the only one who keeps quiet about being a Hillary supporter to avoid precisely this kind of contempt.) Your thesis is that by not accommodating voters who hold these views, that the Democratic party is cutting its own throat. I say that such voters are probably immune to ANY appeals from a party with any claim to leadership in a nation as big and ideologically diverse as this one. They are simply demanding something that our political system is not capable of delivering, and it has nothing to do with rising income inequality or Citizens United. This isn’t Argentina, and you can’t flip a country this size 180 degrees by electing one guy. If these Bernie Sanders supporters are serious about change, they ought to do exactly what the Republicans did in the wake of Barry Goldwater’s catastrophic loss in 1964: set about taking over the party and rebuilding it in their image. That effort involved years of unglamorous, unpublicized organizing, planning, and cultivating candidates at all levels who would enact their agenda. When Reagan took office in 1980, the soil was tilled and ready for him; he didn’t just sweep in and upend twenty years of liberal policies at a stroke. But I have a feeling that’s not what they want, at least not the most vocal ones. They want the catharsis of supporting a guy who appears to be cutting through the bullshit and telling it like it is. They want the rush of being part of something they feel will bring change. I say this because I was once the same way. I supported Howard Dean in 2004. I didn’t listen to those who said he wasn’t prepared to actually be president, though I now believe he probably wasn’t. Those who can see past the caricatures will realize there is very little daylight between Clinton and Sanders in terms of what they would, and could, accomplish as president — and certainly nowhere near the cavernous gulf that lies between Clinton and Trump. The few who won’t will probably stay away. It’s disappointing, but that’s their choice. I expect most will get over it and realize that voting for a flawed candidate is better than not voting at all. And a very few might even decide to take on the challenge of reforming the Democratic Party themselves, rather than lazily sitting back and expecting it to reform itself to their satisfaction. ---
**Author:** ![Disgruntled\_Penguin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a8b319/32.png) [@Disgruntled\_Penguin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Disgruntled_Penguin)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2016, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-way-the-democratic-establishment-is-treating-bernie-supporters-is-a-blunder/753263/107 "2016-04-27T21:17:45Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > I’m hoping I’m not reading this correctly. You would be voting to help the disadvantaged, and you feel your vote for Clinton would help the disadvantaged? But because some Clinton supporters have been obnoxious, you feel that you no longer have any obligation to help the disadvantaged? Am I misreading you? Well, objectively I’ve never felt any obligation to help the disadvantaged except the internal compulsion to do so. An obligation is external and I don’t have any external obligation to assist the disadvantaged. I have an internal compulsion to do so thus I normally do but I in this case, yes the compulsion has dimmed. I still feel compelled to assist the disadvantaged in general but there are far more effective ways of doing that than casting a vote and I don’t feel obliged to take every single possible opportunity to assist the disadvantaged. No one should have to take such a burdon. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2016, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-way-the-democratic-establishment-is-treating-bernie-supporters-is-a-blunder/753263/108 "2016-04-27T21:17:57Z")
> [@Sam\_Lowry](#): > > Why do you think Hillary’s policies would align more with Bill’s than with Obama’s? And, more importantly, what’s the difference anyway? ---
**Author:** ![Airbeck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/airbeck/32/6574_2.png) [@Airbeck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airbeck)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2016, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-way-the-democratic-establishment-is-treating-bernie-supporters-is-a-blunder/753263/109 "2016-04-27T21:20:22Z")
> [@Disgruntled\_Penguin](#): > > I’ve already stated that no one has been mean to me personally but for me politics is not personal. Most of the issues I feel strongly about really aren’t personal they’re about everybody else. I’m not progressive because I’m personally disadvantaged by the status quo. I’m progressive because I know that they suck for others and they’re not fair. It’s about principles rather than personal. That’s what drives me. > > I can’t vote for republicans because they oppose my principles not because they do anything to me personally. If it were personal I would hold my nose and vote for whichever candidate helped me personally. Since I’m voting to help others, when said others are obnoxious I don’t feel compelled to support them. Yeah, that’s all great, and I agree, but this is completely at odds with your previous post where it was all about you and how people have been mean to you. Remember you used the word ‘me’ 6 times in one brief paragraph. Now you’re all about other people. If you mean what you say, then you’ll do what’s right for others regardless of whether or not anyone has been mean to you in particular. Otherwise how can it be anything but selfish if your breaking point to not do what’s right is ‘but someone was mean to me!’? ---
**Author:** ![Disgruntled\_Penguin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a8b319/32.png) [@Disgruntled\_Penguin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Disgruntled_Penguin)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2016, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-way-the-democratic-establishment-is-treating-bernie-supporters-is-a-blunder/753263/110 "2016-04-27T21:23:47Z")
> [@Sam\_Lowry](#): > > Why do you think Hillary’s policies would align more with Bill’s than with Obama’s? She did have a role in Bill’s White House, but that was 16 years ago in a different climate, and her role in Obama’s White House was much more official and recent. I’m sure Bill has a role but I don’t see any reason that her presidency would be a copy of Bill’s. I also didn’t think that Bill went hard right, but I wasn’t able to vote or much interested in politics during Bill’s terms. No, I didn’t mean he went hard right he veered hard to the right. He placed the democratic default position to be the center and allowed the right to skew further right putting a compromise clearly to the right of where it would have been had he been more progressive but had he done that, likely he would not have been a two term president. I don’t fault him for it. What he didn’t do, and I don’t believe she would do either ( I’ve seen no evidence that she has that much fight in her ) to take the ball solo and pull the country his way. Maybe his executive orders won’t stand long term but he had the fortitude to try them to progress his agenda. Clinton used compromise. ---
**Author:** ![ISiddiqui](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/97f17d/32.png) [@ISiddiqui](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ISiddiqui)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2016, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-way-the-democratic-establishment-is-treating-bernie-supporters-is-a-blunder/753263/111 "2016-04-27T21:33:58Z")
Well, do you remember the first two years of Bill Clinton’s Presidency? He tried to pass comprehensive health care and have gays openly serve in the military. He was killed on both, including by a massive part of his own party. It resulted in the Republicans taking the House and Senate in massive numbers. He swung further right after that to reach some compromise and to not get himself booted out of office in 1996. You can only “take the ball solo” when you are President, if you have some help or backing. Clinton had none in the 1990s and so couldn’t. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Lowry](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e95f7d/32.png) [@Sam\_Lowry](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Lowry)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2016, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-way-the-democratic-establishment-is-treating-bernie-supporters-is-a-blunder/753263/112 "2016-04-27T21:37:18Z")
> [@ISiddiqui](#): > > Well, do you remember the first two years of Bill Clinton’s Presidency? He tried to pass comprehensive health care and have gays openly serve in the military. He was killed on both, including by a massive part of his own party. It resulted in the Republicans taking the House and Senate in massive numbers. He swung further right after that to reach some compromise and to not get himself booted out of office in 1996. You can only “take the ball solo” when you are President, if you have some help or backing. Clinton had none in the 1990s and so couldn’t. I don’t really remember the Clinton presidency that well, but that’s the impression I got. Both Obama and Clinton had to do some compromise to get things done. And saying that Hillary would be closer to how Bill was than Obama sounds a bit sexist, like Hillary is not her own person, although I’m assuming that’s not how that was meant. ---
**Author:** ![Disgruntled\_Penguin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a8b319/32.png) [@Disgruntled\_Penguin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Disgruntled_Penguin)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2016, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-way-the-democratic-establishment-is-treating-bernie-supporters-is-a-blunder/753263/113 "2016-04-27T21:37:40Z")
> [@Airbeck](#): > > Yeah, that’s all great, and I agree, but this is completely at odds with your previous post where it was all about you and how people have been mean to you. Remember you used the word ‘me’ 6 times in one brief paragraph. Now you’re all about other people. If you mean what you say, then you’ll do what’s right for others regardless of whether or not anyone has been mean to you in particular. Otherwise how can it be anything but selfish if your breaking point to not do what’s right is ‘but someone was mean to me!’? Of course it’s selfish. I believe that everything that anyone does is selfish. They will opt for what will make them feel the best. It so happens that what selfishly pleases me is for the others around me to live a good , decent life. That is what fulfills me internally. Apparently it has it’s limits. Feeling attacked was what caused me to rethink this particular selfish view in this one instance. I didn’t just feel pissed then decide to not vote. I’ve been mulling this over for a bit and I don’t think my choice here in any way conflicts with my desires. I just don’t think that my vote would mean more for me than my lack of vote would mean for me. If I thought my vote mattered more practically ( I can’t swing my state ) I might have chosen otherwise since I’d then have to reevaluate which selfish desire was more important to me. Once someone takes my assistance for granted then it’s a problem to me. I’m not so inclined to assist them any more. ---
**Author:** ![Disgruntled\_Penguin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a8b319/32.png) [@Disgruntled\_Penguin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Disgruntled_Penguin)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2016, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-way-the-democratic-establishment-is-treating-bernie-supporters-is-a-blunder/753263/114 "2016-04-27T21:46:15Z")
> [@ISiddiqui](#): > > Well, do you remember the first two years of Bill Clinton’s Presidency? He tried to pass comprehensive health care and have gays openly serve in the military. He was killed on both, including by a massive part of his own party. It resulted in the Republicans taking the House and Senate in massive numbers. He swung further right after that to reach some compromise and to not get himself booted out of office in 1996. You can only “take the ball solo” when you are President, if you have some help or backing. Clinton had none in the 1990s and so couldn’t. I remember well enough to have stated that if he didn’t compromise that he likely would not have been a two term president which is what you’re now restating. Even Obama didn’t take the ball until his second term but when he could he did it. Clinton didn’t even try when he couldn’t lose reelection but like you said, different times. I’m not a Clinton hater. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2016, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-way-the-democratic-establishment-is-treating-bernie-supporters-is-a-blunder/753263/115 "2016-04-27T21:51:52Z")
> [@Nonsuch](#): > > To the people you describe, Hillary Clinton is not a well-meaning if flawed public servant who, for all her missteps, generally acts from a sincere desire to make things better for as many people as she can. They see her as a bought-and-paid for oligarchical stooge, whose sole aim is to enrich herself while handing over as much of the country as she can into the hands of the wealthy elite. The truth is, she is both at once. Nor will she be the first POTUS matching both descriptions, either. ---
**Author:** ![Disgruntled\_Penguin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a8b319/32.png) [@Disgruntled\_Penguin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Disgruntled_Penguin)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2016, 10:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-way-the-democratic-establishment-is-treating-bernie-supporters-is-a-blunder/753263/116 "2016-04-27T22:00:23Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > The truth is, she is both at once. Nor will she be the first POTUS matching both descriptions, either. I was going to agree but logically it can’t be both unless her “sole aim is to enrich herself while handing over as much of the country as she can into the hands of the wealthy elite” motive indeed happens to be what she feels makes things better for as many people as she can otherwise enriching herself would not be her sole aim but simply one of her aims. I think she feels she can have the best of both worlds, get rich and help people. It’s kinda, you know, a compromise. ---
**Author:** ![Memnon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f1d935/32.png) [@Memnon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Memnon)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2016, 10:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-way-the-democratic-establishment-is-treating-bernie-supporters-is-a-blunder/753263/117 "2016-04-27T22:27:13Z")
> [@SenorBeef](#): > > Maybe. Or maybe you think the biggest problem in our country is that our politicians are owned by a plutocratic oligarchy and we have no real influence on our politicians, in which case the unexpected rise of Donald Trump is actually appealing as the only guy left standing who isn’t beholden to such interests. You assume the only thing that appeals to people about Bernie are some political issues on a checklist, but that’s a simplistic way of looking at it. But Trump _is_ a special interest. He isn’t beholden to oligarchs because he _is_ an oligarch. Saying people should vote for Trump because Hillary has taken Wall Street money is like saying _“Hillary took money from Goldman-Sachs. Let’s elect Goldman-Sachs”._ I can’t imagine anything more counterproductive. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2016, 10:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-way-the-democratic-establishment-is-treating-bernie-supporters-is-a-blunder/753263/118 "2016-04-27T22:29:50Z")
> [@Disgruntled\_Penguin](#): > > I was going to agree but logically it can’t be both . . . Logically, no; psychologically, nothing is easier. A personality can be entirely sane and yet encompass a great deal of cognitive and emotional dissonance without too much trouble. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2016, 10:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-way-the-democratic-establishment-is-treating-bernie-supporters-is-a-blunder/753263/119 "2016-04-27T22:34:54Z")
> [@Tithonus](#): > > But Trump _is_ a special interest. He isn’t beholden to oligarchs because he _is_ an oligarch. But, he likes to pretend that he is not loyal to his class. And, maybe he really isn’t – FDR wasn’t, after all; but, almost certainly, neither is Trump really loyal to the proles, nor to America, nor anything but himself. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2016, 10:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-way-the-democratic-establishment-is-treating-bernie-supporters-is-a-blunder/753263/120 "2016-04-27T22:39:45Z")
> [@Nonsuch](#): > > You’re quite right in that many people (and you personally, I suppose) see Clinton in exactly these terms. But respect is a two-way street. As a Hillary supporter, why — how, even? — am I supposed to find rapprochement with people who believe such a cartoonish, mustache-twirling caricature? To the people you describe, Hillary Clinton is not a well-meaning if flawed public servant who, for all her missteps, generally acts from a sincere desire to make things better for as many people as she can. They see her as a bought-and-paid for oligarchical stooge, whose sole aim is to enrich herself while handing over as much of the country as she can into the hands of the wealthy elite. Excellent points. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-way-the-democratic-establishment-is-treating-bernie-supporters-is-a-blunder/753263.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-way-the-democratic-establishment-is-treating-bernie-supporters-is-a-blunder/753263.md?page=7)