# The Welfare Queen, Redux **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [March 22, 2017, 11:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-welfare-queen-redux/782796 "2017-03-22T23:10:45Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2017, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-welfare-queen-redux/782796/81 "2017-03-24T20:59:40Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > What would be cheaper would be to let the market set wages. More efficient as well, and therefore better in the long run and for more people. Assuming a system where wages (and presumably things like number of hours worked, etc…) would be entirely unregulated, and assuming no public safety net except for people who truly _can’t_ work (so no food stamps, no public healthcare, no subsidized housing or transportation, etc…), with presumably wages falling until (now absolutely needed) full employment is reached : Do you truly believe that the lowest wages (say, the 5% lowest) would allow for a decent life (roof over your head, food in the plate, heating, medical care, required transportation…) paid for solely with said wages? ---
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2017, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-welfare-queen-redux/782796/82 "2017-03-24T21:32:17Z")
> [@JR\_Brown](#): > > Not with you on the “large cash incentives for sterilization” thing. Unless you are going to use this incentive on everybody, with the aim of decreasing the general country-wide birthrate, it smacks a bit of a [certain something](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eugenics). Yeah, that Eugene is a bastard. Thought of him when sterilization of the poor was first brought up in this thread. ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2017, 12:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-welfare-queen-redux/782796/83 "2017-03-25T00:13:13Z")
> [@Thudlow\_Boink](#): > > I’ve posted this before, so I’ll just link to it: [The “game theory” explanation of liberal vs. conservative attitudes towards welfare](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=17123845&postcount=16) I probably mentioned it then, but mentioning Poundstone ist verboten hier. It seems he sells more books than His Nibs. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2017, 12:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-welfare-queen-redux/782796/84 "2017-03-25T00:52:26Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > I assume you mean 1900. Did you know that wages in 1903 were 16% higher than the average of 1890-99? [Cite](https://www.bls.gov/opub/mlr/1984/11/art3full.pdf). Average means fucks all. Average wages are going up right now, too. It’s just, the top bracket goes \*way \*up [while the rest hangs back or decreases](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Real_wages). As for GNP, Interesting that you’d pick the bracket that ends in 1930. Remind me what happened in 1929-1933 ? Remind me why that happened ? That’s right : because all that economics “growth” was really a sham built on credit wagered on permanent future growth and prosperity. Who got the shaft when it all went tits up ? And who got to buy all the land, all the houses, all the cars and fridges for pennies on the dollar ? ---
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2017, 1:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-welfare-queen-redux/782796/85 "2017-03-25T01:50:37Z")
I have internet access because there is an Xfinity hotspot by my house and a friend with Xfinity service lets me use their account. I have a computer (I forget how old at the moment. It came with Windows 7 pre loaded) that my sister gave me. I may be working off the books at a job I can handle. I may not, as that would be illegal. Hypothetically speaking- said job doesn’t pay enough to live on or provide health benefits. Re **Curlcoat** ’s claims- I do not now and never have had a credit card. I rent a one bedroom apartment. I don’t own a car. I do not have cable, netflix etc. Though a few friends keep meaning to give me their Netflix password. I live within my means. My big expense is going to (I kid you not) Goodwill each week. Besides food stamps, I am on social security disability. Back in college, my bipolar affective disorder (what used to be called manic depression) kicked in. The pills stopped working and I had to drop out of college. After a few years of strugling (during which time i lived with my parents), I got on disability. After a few more years, I found a good daily program and pills that work. I am looking at getting a real job. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2017, 1:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-welfare-queen-redux/782796/86 "2017-03-25T01:56:45Z")
How old are you if you don’t mind me asking? ---
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2017, 2:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-welfare-queen-redux/782796/87 "2017-03-25T02:00:30Z")
I’m 42. College was about twenty years ago. I feel largely robbed of those two decades. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2017, 2:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-welfare-queen-redux/782796/88 "2017-03-25T02:05:16Z")
Thanks for the answer. Again, if you don’t mind, you mentioned that you had to drop out of college and live with your parents, how long did you live with them? And then you mentioned that after a few more years, you found a good daily program and pills that worked. How long ago was that? And what have you been doing since then? ---
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2017, 2:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-welfare-queen-redux/782796/89 "2017-03-25T02:14:41Z")
I forget exactly how long I lived with my parents. I think I got my own place (when they moved into a seniors only community) in 98. The day program and pills was about 2010. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2017, 2:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-welfare-queen-redux/782796/90 "2017-03-25T02:19:29Z")
So from 2010 until today, what have you been doing? ---
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2017, 2:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-welfare-queen-redux/782796/91 "2017-03-25T02:27:59Z")
working hard with my therapist, my case worker at the day program, applying for various jobs, and hypothetically possibly working under the table. The day program helped a lot. But, it didn’t happen overnight. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2017, 2:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-welfare-queen-redux/782796/92 "2017-03-25T02:38:19Z")
See here is the issue. And what people who hear your story will think. Why haven’t you gotten a job in those 7 years? ---
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2017, 2:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-welfare-queen-redux/782796/93 "2017-03-25T02:40:30Z")
I’ve been applying for a few. And hypothetically speaking, I may have been working off the books. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2017, 2:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-welfare-queen-redux/782796/94 "2017-03-25T02:54:26Z")
But see, that is the problem. A lot of people, including myself, feel that you are hypothetically working “off the books” to avoid losing your disability payments. While I can’t empathize with your situation, I understand it. But 7 years and you couldn’t find a real job? It’s hard for people to swallow. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2017, 3:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-welfare-queen-redux/782796/95 "2017-03-25T03:37:15Z")
“People” in this context means you, right? Did you simply misword what appears to be an insinuation of dishonest malingering? If that isn’t what you meant, now might be a real good time to say so. Otherwise, people might think someone made a painful and difficult revelation about themselves and you wiped your butt with it. Which, you know, is major asshole territory. ---
**Author:** ![Beren\_Erchamion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/90ced4/32.png) [@Beren\_Erchamion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beren_Erchamion)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2017, 4:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-welfare-queen-redux/782796/96 "2017-03-25T04:31:31Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > See here is the issue. And what people who hear your story will think. Why haven’t you gotten a job in those 7 years? Because this is the real world, where success in finding a decent job that doesn’t make one miserable (and “not making one miserable” is absolutely a legitimate condition, since any moral, just, freedom-loving society recognizes that the whole point is to work to live and not to live to work) is not something that is ever under one’s control, particularly when one has disabilities. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2017, 4:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-welfare-queen-redux/782796/97 "2017-03-25T04:36:18Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > But 7 years and you couldn’t find a real job? It’s hard for people to swallow. No, it’s really not. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2017, 7:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-welfare-queen-redux/782796/98 "2017-03-25T07:32:47Z")
> [@clairobscur](#): > > Assuming a system where wages (and presumably things like number of hours worked, etc…) would be entirely unregulated, and assuming no public safety net except for people who truly _can’t_ work (so no food stamps, no public healthcare, no subsidized housing or transportation, etc…), with presumably wages falling until (now absolutely needed) full employment is reached : > Do you truly believe that the lowest wages (say, the 5% lowest) would allow for a decent life (roof over your head, food in the plate, heating, medical care, required transportation…) paid for solely with said wages? No, of course not. But that’s the case now with a legally mandated minimum wage. Only about 4% of workers in the US earn MW, and most of those don’t live in poor households or support anyone, including themselves. It’s somewhat unusual for working families to be poor - three quarters of the poor in America do not have a full-time, year-round worker. So letting the market set wages works pretty well already, even with a MW. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![cochrane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cochrane/32/10441_2.png) [@cochrane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cochrane)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2017, 7:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-welfare-queen-redux/782796/99 "2017-03-25T07:55:55Z")
> [@Skywatcher](#): > > Translation: “I got nuthin’, they know I got nuthin’, and I can’t admit they’re right so I’ll storm off in a huff.” She doesn’t have to storm off in a huff. She can take a minute and a huff. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2017, 9:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-welfare-queen-redux/782796/100 "2017-03-25T09:19:13Z")
> [@Thudlow\_Boink](#): > > I’ve posted this before, so I’ll just link to it: [The “game theory” explanation of liberal vs. conservative attitudes towards welfare](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=17123845&postcount=16) So Poundstone regards Democrats as cooperators in a Prisoner’s Dilemma game, and the GOP as defectors. It could be a useful model; I think (and think Poundstone thinks) _ **this model applies to a lot more than just their stance on welfare.** _ It is widely agreed that “Tit-for-Tat” is the proper way to play Prisoner’s Dilemma — if the co-player has been cooperating, you cooperate; if the co-player has been defecting, you defect. For at least 8 years, the Democrats have been bending over to cooperate while GOP invariably defects. _It’s about time the Democrats start playing Tit-for-Tat._ [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-welfare-queen-redux/782796.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-welfare-queen-redux/782796.md?page=6)