# The Wellstone Conspiracy (A valid debating technique?) **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 29, 2002, 12:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-wellstone-conspiracy-a-valid-debating-technique/134324 "2002-10-29T00:53:22Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 16\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![RTA](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/b4bc9f/32.png) [@RTA](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTA)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2002, 2:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-wellstone-conspiracy-a-valid-debating-technique/134324/21 "2002-10-29T14:21:06Z")
I am fond of recalling that even though GD is the place for well-reasoned debate, it is also clearly billed as the designated place for witnessing. Conspiracy theories are just another form of witnessing. Wellstone was coasting to victory and was the #1 Senate opponent of the war over Iraq’s oil. His vote against the war was not met with constituent disdain as expected, but widespread accolades - exposing the naked emperor that is the US’ war culture. A major thorn in the side of the Bushistas. The fact that he’s the second guy like that to go down in a plane - right before being elected - in consecutive election years - can fairly be passed off as one hootenanny of a coincidence. I suppose. Scylla’s OP is a great example of the method the right has been using lately to attack the left. In the schoolyard we called it “No, you.” _The Republicans want to take away our civil liberties_. “The Democrats want to take away our civil liberties!” _The Republicans used their power and connections to steal the 2000 election_. “The Democrats are going to use massive voter fraud to steal the 2002 election! Just like they tried to do in 2000! We need tighter control authority at the polls and make sure everyone’s papers are in order!” _The Republican agenda takes its inspiration from a tiny minority of corporate oligarchs_. “Democrats take all their marching orders from Barbra Streisand!” _A paramilitary black-ops team with orders from Washington killed Senator Wellstone_. “Clinton and Kennedy killed Wellstone!” ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2002, 2:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-wellstone-conspiracy-a-valid-debating-technique/134324/22 "2002-10-29T14:22:05Z")
Actually, the latest Minnesota poll before the Wellstone plane crash had his lead being narrowed by one-third - so he had to go. There is no limit to Ted Kennedy’s perfidy, at least not according to my archive of exclusive videos. And as if any more **proof** were needed…[**here’s** another _ **plot** _ that failed.](http://www.startribune.com/stories/484/3395994.html) ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2002, 2:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-wellstone-conspiracy-a-valid-debating-technique/134324/23 "2002-10-29T14:33:57Z")
RTA: > [@](#): > > Scylla’s OP is a great example of the method the right has been using lately to attack the left. In the schoolyard we called it “No, you.” I see. So only Republicans do this? ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2002, 2:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-wellstone-conspiracy-a-valid-debating-technique/134324/24 "2002-10-29T14:35:29Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Beagle \* > \*\*Just wondering, is there ANY evidence AT ALL - I’ll take one state trooper with a grudge - that Wellstone was killed by anything other than a run-of-the-mill plane crash? \*\* No. But the very absence is damning, isn’t it? ---
**Author:** ![xenophon41](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xenophon41/32/253_2.png) [@xenophon41](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/xenophon41)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2002, 3:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-wellstone-conspiracy-a-valid-debating-technique/134324/25 "2002-10-29T15:05:04Z")
> [@](#): > > And, **xenophon41** , perhaps you should have read the _entire_ OP before posting your response… **David B** : I read the entire OP before I posted my reply. I stand by it; the OP was a bullshit rant. We are led to believe that straightshooting, steelyeyed **Scylla** , long suffering defender of Truth, is now reluctantly pointing out the Quite Obvious Fact that all of the threads questioning our President’s veracity regarding Iraq, corporate reform, the War on Terror®, etc. are simply instances of irresponsible innuendo and prevarication from us iggernit leftists, “bearing false witness” against our poor maligned Commander in Chief. This OP is nothing more than a cleverly delivered ad hominem attack on **Scylla** ’s debate opponents in the threads he’s mentioned. It is more than a broad brush; it’s a veritable paint cannon. Coming from _any_ poster, the OP would be contemptible. Coming from someone who clearly does not count stupidity or gullibility among his [numerous] character flaws, the OP is beneath contempt. **elucidator** ’s post, of course, made these points with more style and gentleness than I can muster, but I hope my explanation will correct the assumption that my cry of “bullshit” is a result of misreading the OP. I completely understand the thesis, and find it not only inapt and insulting when applied to the _actual_ debates regarding those subjects, and not only a risible tactic of distraction and evasion, but also a rather despicable and cowardly smear against a whole group of Dopers who’ve had the temerity to disagree with the OP regarding Bush. ---
**Author:** ![erislover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/71e660/32.png) [@erislover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/erislover)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2002, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-wellstone-conspiracy-a-valid-debating-technique/134324/26 "2002-10-29T15:08:24Z")
What we need here is a crack team of necromancers working 'round the clock to divine secrets from this poor, dead soul. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Ace\_of\_Swords](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e495f1/32.png) [@The\_Ace\_of\_Swords](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Ace_of_Swords)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2002, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-wellstone-conspiracy-a-valid-debating-technique/134324/27 "2002-10-29T15:48:14Z")
Wait, no wait! **Scylla** is once again right as rain! It’s true! You liberal conspiracy theorists better keep your noses clean; make sure you don’t do anything like produce [hateful videos](http://www.inforamp.net/~jwhitley/clinvid1.htm) detailing the presidents execution style hits, or accuse the president of [having kids with a black hooker](http://www.drudge.com/1999/01/010699.shtml), none of that! Me and Scylla, we’re watching you! Remember to watch what you [say](http://www.freerepublic.com/) and watch what you [do](http://www.loper.org/~george/archives/2000/Nov/110.html). Remember that this is a time of war, and those who dissent give [aid and succor to our enemies.](http://foi.missouri.edu/terrorbkgd/following.html) Remember, we must be better than Klintoon, whose termagant wife ran the travel office like a [personal fiefdom](http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A7405-2002Oct23.html)! We must not wag the dog like he did when he lobbed cruise missiles at the aspirin factory! We will never confuse [politics and war](http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,356034,00.html), the way Klintoon did! Remember, the track record of the conspiracy theorists? Was Nixon embroiled in a cover-up? Only peripherally! Was [Anthrax](http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A49502-2001Dec15?.html) being made in America? Was there really a [conspiracy](http://www.salon.com/news/1998/03/17news.html) against [Klintoon at the highest and lowest levels?](http://www.buzzflash.com/interviews/2002/03/David_Brock_031802.html) C’mon! Did Republicans _actually_ subvert the [judicial system](http://secure.mediaresearch.org/news/mediawatch/1994/mw19940901jca.html) to get at the bounce-back kid? Next you’ll be saying we own the media! Did they [buy](http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/events/newsnight/1174115.stm) and [rig](http://abcnews.go.com/sections/GMA/GoodMorningAmerica/GMA_Election_Books.html) the election? That’s _crazy_ talk! You have to look at these nuts’ track record – disastrous --discredited – then look at Scylla’s! Is he not an avatar of calm, impartial, selfless justice? I think you’ll agree with me when I say that comparing Scylla’s track record to the conspiracists is an outrage! An outrage to the very fabric of debate! And if you had any honor, _you_ would _stop it._ ---
**Author:** ![Mtgman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b5a626/32.png) [@Mtgman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mtgman)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2002, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-wellstone-conspiracy-a-valid-debating-technique/134324/28 "2002-10-29T16:00:50Z")
So, **Scylla** , can we make a deal? The Democrats have to absorb all the half-cocked “Bush Knew”, “It’s all about the oil!” and other nonsensical OPs as part of our load to carry, and the Republicans get **december**. If you’re going to lump all Dems in with the fools who post the OPs you’re ranting against, can they lump all Republicans in with **december**? Enquiring minds want to know! Enjoy, Steven ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2002, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-wellstone-conspiracy-a-valid-debating-technique/134324/29 "2002-10-29T16:49:19Z")
mtgman: > [@](#): > > If you’re going to lump all Dems in with the fools who post the OPs you’re ranting against, can they lump all Republicans in with december? Enquiring minds want to know! Who’s lumping (besides Beagle?) Debate by innuendo is a bipartisan phenomenom. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2002, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-wellstone-conspiracy-a-valid-debating-technique/134324/30 "2002-10-29T16:58:36Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Ace0Spades \* > \*\*Say, just curious: > > How many big name politicans have died in plane crashes in the last 20 years, and what percentage were Democrats? \*\* Well, there was Senator John Heinz (R, PA) who died in a helicopter crash… ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2002, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-wellstone-conspiracy-a-valid-debating-technique/134324/31 "2002-10-29T17:29:49Z")
Ron Brown. ---
**Author:** ![Beagle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/85f322/32.png) [@Beagle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beagle)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2002, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-wellstone-conspiracy-a-valid-debating-technique/134324/32 "2002-10-29T17:41:58Z")
> [@](#): > > **Scylla:** Who’s lumping (besides Beagle?) I’m not lumping. I’m just saying that there is a radical fringe conspiracy element in the Democratic Party. Just because nuts fall from all the trees does not mean that the tree is full of nuts, to flog the metaphor. The DU site I linked to has those who claim that the conspiracy theory of the Wellstone crash is nutty also. I just want to see evidence before I assume a murder plot. At least a veteran of WWII was positive bullets whizzed over his head from the grassy knoll. **Ace** , well researched and cited. But, I still don’t see how this proves that the small plane (notoriously dangerous devices) was intentionally brought down. If the FAA - or anyone for that matter - finds evidence, I’ll listen. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Ace\_of\_Swords](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e495f1/32.png) [@The\_Ace\_of\_Swords](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Ace_of_Swords)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2002, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-wellstone-conspiracy-a-valid-debating-technique/134324/33 "2002-10-29T17:57:20Z")
> [@](#): > > But, I still don’t see how this proves that the small plane (notoriously dangerous devices) was intentionally brought down. If the FAA - or anyone for that matter - finds evidence, I’ll listen. Thank you for the praise. It was intended to prove nothing except that the concern has merit and **Scylla’s** dismissal of it does not; and that we should investigate. If anyone would like to supply me with the research, I’d be happy to go through it. ---
**Author:** ![Kalt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Kalt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalt)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2002, 7:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-wellstone-conspiracy-a-valid-debating-technique/134324/34 "2002-10-30T07:14:56Z")
From a purely polemical standpoint, it is much better IMO to just say “the democrats killed Wellstone because when a politician dies during a heated race, his fill-in always wins via the sympathy vote” than going on and on about the alleged specifics (who did the specifics). Were someone to post your rant, I’d think they’re nutty. Were someone to simply pose the question “was wellstone murdered to ensure a democrat victory at the polls?” then it would be a much more valid question, and a much more valid debate would therefore ensue. As to the merits of the argument itself, planes typically crash by either negligence (_res ispa loquitur_ inference) or by Islamic intervention. As there were no reported muslims on Wellstone’s plane, it leaves a strong presumption that it was just negligence on someone’s part (pilot error, mechanical problem, etc). Such a strong presumption really helps cover up an intentional downing of the plane on the part of the Democrats. All they have to do is point out that there were no muslims reportedly involved and they’re scot-free, and win the senate seat by sympathy vote. Replacement candidate’s qualifications are not a factor. “A man died, I must do the right thing and vote for his replacement.” Damn i’m just a cynical jackass today. ---
**Author:** ![emarkp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/3be4f8/32.png) [@emarkp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emarkp)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2002, 7:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-wellstone-conspiracy-a-valid-debating-technique/134324/35 "2002-11-05T07:56:11Z")
**andros** , I’m familiar with the English language, thank you very much. Dictionaries represent usage, and hence bad usage will get into the dictionaries. Theft connotes depriving someone of something. An unlicensed copy of software/music/media/etc. deprives neither the licensee nor the copyright holder of the work in question. The war of nomenclature seeks to define terms in an advantageous manner. By referring to people who have unlicensed copies as “pirates”, the MPAA/RIAA/etc. cast themselves as the good guys vs. the bad guys. I would bet that the majority of americans have at least one unlicensed copy of some IP, and yet there is no wholesale slaughter of people on the open seas. Nor are people being deprived of property. Call a spade a spade, please. The issues of IP are complicated, and trivializing them (not to mention victims of **real** piracy) only clouds the issue. ---
**Author:** ![emarkp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/3be4f8/32.png) [@emarkp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emarkp)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2002, 7:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-wellstone-conspiracy-a-valid-debating-technique/134324/36 "2002-11-05T07:57:14Z")
oops–wrong thread. Sigh. Too many windows open. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-wellstone-conspiracy-a-valid-debating-technique/134324.md?page=1)