# The Whedonverse **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [October 7, 2009, 11:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-whedonverse/512992 "2009-10-07T23:34:42Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Lakai](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/9de0a6/32.png) [@Lakai](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lakai)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2009, 3:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-whedonverse/512992/21 "2009-10-08T03:22:33Z")
> [@omgzebras](#): > > I absolutely loved Firefly. Based on the strength of that show I took a chance and bought season 1 of Buffy and I thought it was terrible. I wanted to like it, I really did, it just didn’t click for me. Buffy only gets good in Season two. I wouldn’t judge that show based on the first season. You can watch it on [hulu](http://www.hulu.com/buffy-the-vampire-slayer) for free. ---
**Author:** ![lissener](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lissener/32/6139_2.png) [@lissener](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lissener)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2009, 5:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-whedonverse/512992/22 "2009-10-08T05:31:58Z")
> [@omgzebras](#): > > I absolutely loved Firefly. Based on the strength of that show I took a chance and bought season 1 of Buffy and I thought it was terrible. I wanted to like it, I really did, it just didn’t click for me. Buffy, overall, is the best series in the history of American television. Over seven seasons it continued to grow deeper and stronger from season to season. This means, of course, that Season One was the worst season. When I recommend Buffy to people, I almost always suggest they start with Season Three. They’ll eventually become hooked enough to go back and watch Season One, but overall, omgzebras, you’re not wrong in rejecting Season One. Having invested the time, however, I still suggest you go a little further. Skip ahead a couple seasons and try it again. You can watch it for free on Hulu. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2009, 5:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-whedonverse/512992/23 "2009-10-08T05:50:45Z")
> [@pepperlandgirl](#): > > Angel is my favorite. I was a latecomer to the show (didn’t start watching it until S5) but when I got all caught up with the DVDs, I fell so hard. I always was frustrated with Buffy because it felt like the world was so immature–like everybody on Buffy was stuck in an arrested development. But on **Angel** there were so many shades of gray that sometimes it was difficult to even define right and wrong. The characters felt so real to me and I loved them all–mainly because of their flaws. The really ironic thing is that I hate, hate, hate, hate Angel on _BtVS_. I cannot _stand_ him and I can barely make it through S3. I find every second he’s on the screen so painful. But when I watch **Angel** , he’s my favorite character and I adore him completely. I think the Hellmouth makes him braindead. > > I wish more people loved the show. I’m always in the minority. You and me both, kid. I agree with virtually everything you said, and add that \*Angel \*was the most \*\*epic \*\*of all of Whedon’s series, with the most sweeping plots and complex themes. In many ways it is the DS9 to Buffy’s TNG. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2009, 6:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-whedonverse/512992/24 "2009-10-08T06:05:12Z")
I think _Angel_ is the series where Joss Whedon really mastered his craft. _Buffy_ showed a huge amount of talent, but was pretty clearly a journeyman effort. _Angel_ started off that way, but matured into a much stronger work than _Buffy_. The payoff to all of this was _Firefly_, where Joss was finally able to shed the need for a season of “finding the show’s voice.” It had a very clear, well defined vision from the first episode (whether you use Joss’s counting, or Fox’s to define “first episode”) which is why I voted for it in the poll. ---
**Author:** ![pepperlandgirl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/f17d59/32.png) [@pepperlandgirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pepperlandgirl)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2009, 7:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-whedonverse/512992/25 "2009-10-08T07:13:48Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > You and me both, kid. > > I agree with virtually everything you said, and add that \*Angel \*was the most \*\*epic \*\*of all of Whedon’s series, with the most sweeping plots and complex themes. In many ways it is the DS9 to Buffy’s TNG. It was definitely epic. Instead of having seasonal arcs like _BtVS_, _Angel_ had a series arc that was hinted at in the middle of S1 ( **Parting Gifts** ) and really got rolling with the final ep of the 1st season, **To Shanshu in LA**. I don’t think every single element was plotted out 4 seasons in advance, but it’s clear they were laying the groundwork early for all of the later developments. Just today I was thinking about **Are You Now or Have You Ever Been** (the second ep of S2) and realized that so much of it foreshadowed Angel’s emotional and mental battles that season. His conversation with the Paranoia demon actually mirrors his conversation with Holland Manners later. In both cases, Angel’s first instinct is _right_, but the villain subtly manipulates Angel by appealing to his own innate insecurities and self-doubt, turning Angel completely around and putting him on the wrong path. That they even allowed the hero of the show to be _wrong_ is amazing–that they did it in such a subtle, deft way, perfectly in line with the theme of the series _and_ the character of Angel makes me appreciate and love the show all the more. That sort of move was definitely not possible on _BtVS_, and as a result _BtVS_ was much less complex and dark (though it still had its complex and dark moments). ---
**Author:** ![Icerigger](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/icerigger/32/432_2.png) [@Icerigger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Icerigger)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2009, 8:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-whedonverse/512992/26 "2009-10-08T08:38:39Z")
Should we include Alien 4, the crew of the Betty was the inspiration for Firefly, was it not? ---
**Author:** ![WarmNPrickly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/d78d45/32.png) [@WarmNPrickly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WarmNPrickly)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2009, 9:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-whedonverse/512992/27 "2009-10-08T09:05:48Z")
Firefly is great and late Buffy stunk even though Spike was pretty cool. Still, Buffy simply has more meat. If Firefly had lasted longer, it might have won out, but early Buffy was great stuff. Early Buffy is every bit as good as Firefly. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2009, 9:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-whedonverse/512992/28 "2009-10-08T09:31:34Z")
> [@pepperlandgirl](#): > > I find every second he’s on the screen so painful. But when I watch **Angel** , he’s my favorite character and I adore him completely. I think the Hellmouth makes him braindead. Just wanted to corrent you - it’s not the Hellmouth, it’s the presence of a certain annoying blonde. ---
**Author:** ![DianaG](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/7ab992/32.png) [@DianaG](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DianaG)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2009, 1:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-whedonverse/512992/29 "2009-10-08T13:32:46Z")
Buffy is wonderful, but it’s a story about growing up, and I was already all growed up when it began airing. On Buffy, everything is gonna be okay. There is loss, but they’re young and the world is full of shiny possibilities. Ultimately, it’s sort of childishly optimistic. That’s not a bad thing, it’s just a matter of taste. (Not judgey, just observey. ;)) Firefly is great, but 13 episodes just can’t compete with 100+ for room in my heart. Angel is my favorite. Angel is about being a grown up, about facing the rest of your life knowing that it’s NOT going to be an endless array of shiny possibilities, and loss is searing and life-changing, and everything won’t be okay, but you’ll do the best you can and get through it. On Angel, there is happiness, but it’s a pit stop, not a destination. On Angel, there is no destination, you just keep going 'til you die. > [@pepperlandgirl](#): > > The really ironic thing is that I hate, hate, hate, hate Angel on _BtVS_. I cannot _stand_ him and I can barely make it through S3. I find every second he’s on the screen so painful. But when I watch **Angel** , he’s my favorite character and I adore him completely. I think the Hellmouth makes him braindead. I was pretty indifferent towards Angel on Buffy, until I watched Angel, and NOW I can’t bear him on Buffy. The Angel we know from his show is most assuredly not a suitable boyfriend for a sixteen year old girl, which only makes sense, what with him being a 200 year old vampire, and in retrospect it makes their entire relationship not only icky, but completely incredible, in the truest sense of that word. ---
**Author:** ![Wolverine](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/ba9def/32.png) [@Wolverine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wolverine)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2009, 1:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-whedonverse/512992/30 "2009-10-08T13:38:13Z")
I voted for Firefly because it is my Favorite, not the most influential, not even necessarily the best. If there was a poll for Whedon’s best work, I might vote differently. But for this poll, I love me some Firefly. ---
**Author:** ![Anaamika](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Anaamika](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anaamika)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2009, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-whedonverse/512992/31 "2009-10-08T15:26:14Z")
I like Firefly a lot. I wouldn’t say I loved it, though. I am another one who just couldn’t get to liking Buffy. I think DianaG has at least part of it; it’s a show about growing up. All of their little trials and tribulations bored the ever lovin’ piss out of me and I couldn’t even get past the first season. Yes, I know, “it gets better in the second season”. Fine, but when you get so severely turned off from the first season it’s hard to make yourself go back. Perhaps I’ll try again in the future. I haven’t seen any others. Right now I have watched Firefly and Buffy and liked one and pretty much hated the other. I don’t really feel like trying anything else with that kind of ratio! ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2009, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-whedonverse/512992/32 "2009-10-08T15:28:42Z")
> [@pepperlandgirl](#): > > Angel is my favorite. I was a latecomer to the show (didn’t start watching it until S5) but when I got all caught up with the DVDs, I fell so hard. I always was frustrated with Buffy because it felt like the world was so immature–like everybody on Buffy was stuck in an arrested development. But on **Angel** there were so many shades of gray that sometimes it was difficult to even define right and wrong. The characters felt so real to me and I loved them all–mainly because of their flaws. The really ironic thing is that I hate, hate, hate, hate Angel on _BtVS_. I cannot _stand_ him and I can barely make it through S3. I find every second he’s on the screen so painful. But when I watch **Angel** , he’s my favorite character and I adore him completely. I think the Hellmouth makes him braindead. > > I wish more people loved the show. I’m always in the minority. Paprika, are you ENTIRELY sure you’re not me? Please double-check. ---
**Author:** ![Mahaloth](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mahaloth/32/1079_2.png) [@Mahaloth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mahaloth)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2009, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-whedonverse/512992/33 "2009-10-08T16:06:25Z")
1. Firefly 2. Angel, especially seasons 4 and 5. 3. Buffy(series) 4. Everything else, though Dollhouse may improve enough to make it on my mental list. ---
**Author:** ![bramma23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@bramma23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bramma23)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2009, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-whedonverse/512992/34 "2009-10-08T16:20:25Z")
I’m not sure how comfortable I feel referring to Angel as a Whedon series. Wasn’t David Greenwalt primarily in charge creatively and production-wise after the first season? ---
**Author:** ![DianaG](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/7ab992/32.png) [@DianaG](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DianaG)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2009, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-whedonverse/512992/35 "2009-10-08T16:25:52Z")
Well, it starts out with Whedon characters, and more or less adheres to a Whedonesque vision, so I think you’ve got to consider it a Whedon series. That said, yeah, Joss was pretty hands-off with Angel I think, and David Greenwalt and Tim Minear were the real driving forces. ---
**Author:** ![cmyk](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmyk/32/3353_2.png) [@cmyk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmyk)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2009, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-whedonverse/512992/36 "2009-10-08T16:54:33Z")
**Toy Story.** 😃 Actually, I’m new to the whole Whedon thing. **Dollhouse** is my fist go. I tried to get into **Firefly** and couldn’t, and vampires just aren’t my thing. **Dr. Horrible** is awesome, but too fleeting to be considered anything but a highly entertaining sketch. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2009, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-whedonverse/512992/37 "2009-10-08T18:25:03Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > Just wanted to corrent you - it’s not the Hellmouth, it’s the presence of a certain annoying blonde. I think you’re both talking about the same thing. ---
**Author:** ![pepperlandgirl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/f17d59/32.png) [@pepperlandgirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pepperlandgirl)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2009, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-whedonverse/512992/38 "2009-10-08T18:27:49Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > I think you’re both talking about the same thing. ZING! Seriously though, I agree. ---
**Author:** ![Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e36b37/32.png) [@Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airman_Doors_USAF)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2009, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-whedonverse/512992/39 "2009-10-08T18:30:41Z")
> [@Aesiron](#): > > Wait. Someone voted for the movie? The _Buffy_ movie is the only thing he is responsible for that I actually enjoyed. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2009, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-whedonverse/512992/40 "2009-10-08T18:53:13Z")
> [@Michael\_Ellis](#): > > Write in vote for _Alien: Resurrection_. Are you serious? I try to pretend that godawful piece of shit isn’t even part of the canon. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-whedonverse/512992.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-whedonverse/512992.md?page=3)