# The Whedonverse **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [October 7, 2009, 11:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-whedonverse/512992 "2009-10-07T23:34:42Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 14\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2009, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-whedonverse/512992/41 "2009-10-08T21:27:57Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > Are you serious? I try to pretend that godawful piece of shit isn’t even part of the canon. Eh. It’s better than 3. ---
**Author:** ![Ephemera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8baadc/32.png) [@Ephemera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ephemera)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2009, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-whedonverse/512992/42 "2009-10-08T21:43:43Z")
> [@DianaG](#): > > Well, it starts out with Whedon characters, and more or less adheres to a Whedonesque vision, so I think you’ve got to consider it a Whedon series. That said, yeah, Joss was pretty hands-off with Angel I think, and David Greenwalt and Tim Minear were the real driving forces. I’ve heard plenty about Buffy being a Noxon show in its last couple seasons, but have never heard anything about Angel being a Minear and Greenwalt production, and it seems pretty consistent with the rest of his work. Do you have more information on this? ---
**Author:** ![pepperlandgirl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/f17d59/32.png) [@pepperlandgirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pepperlandgirl)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2009, 10:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-whedonverse/512992/43 "2009-10-08T22:41:40Z")
> [@Aesiron](#): > > I’ve heard plenty about Buffy being a Noxon show in its last couple seasons, but have never heard anything about Angel being a Minear and Greenwalt production, and it seems pretty consistent with the rest of his work. Do you have more information on this? David Greenwalt was the show runner. Joss was exec producer, of course, and even wrote a few of the episodes, but for all intents and purposes, Greenwalt was the boss. Greenwalt left at the end of S3, IIRC, and I believe Tim Minear took over as showrunner in S4 (though I don’t know for sure). I know that in S5, Jeffrey Bell (with David Fury) was the man in charge. I never got the impression that Joss had a huge hand in the show–not the way he did with Buffy and Firefly–but he was still involved with it. In fact, I once met Jane Eppenson, and I remember her mentioning that she wrote a scene between Angel and Doyle that Joss axed because it was “too gay.” She laughed and said, “It was like, do you even watch the show?” ---
**Author:** ![bramma23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@bramma23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bramma23)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2009, 10:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-whedonverse/512992/44 "2009-10-08T22:55:13Z")
I don’t think Angel bears quite the same earmarks of other Whedon projects. I don’t think it’s nearly as pro-feminist. Cordelia and Fred are strong characters but I don’t see the show as being vocally or outwardly feminist. ---
**Author:** ![Ephemera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8baadc/32.png) [@Ephemera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ephemera)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2009, 12:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-whedonverse/512992/45 "2009-10-09T00:46:06Z")
\*Firefly \*didn’t really show any strong feminist leanings, either, and \*Dollhouse \*makes a number of my feminist friends cringe. > [@pepperlandgirl](#): > > I know that in S5, Jeffrey Bell (with David Fury) was the man in charge. I never got the impression that Joss had a huge hand in the show–not the way he did with Buffy and Firefly–but he was still involved with it. You’re a bigger Joss nerd and Angel fan than I am, so I believe you, but I’ve never encountered this idea before, and don’t really get that impression from any of the guides I’ve read, or commentaries I’ve listened to. It’s a little bizarre, really. > [@pepperlandgirl](#): > > David Greenwalt was the show runner. Joss was exec producer, of course, and even wrote a few of the episodes, but for all intents and purposes, Greenwalt was the boss. Greenwalt left at the end of S3, IIRC, and I believe Tim Minear took over as showrunner in S4 (though I don’t know for sure). I know that in S5, Jeffrey Bell (with David Fury) was the man in charge. Interesting how that is pretty consistent with my opinion of the different eras of the show. I thought the first three seasons were middling (first season) to very good (third season) while season four was the worst season of anything Joss has ever produced (even taking into account how wonderful Wesley’s metamorphosis was) and season five ranks up there with \*Firefly \*and the very best seasons of _Buffy_. ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2009, 12:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-whedonverse/512992/46 "2009-10-09T00:52:29Z")
Joss characters, Joss wrote episodes, it was a spin-off of a Joss show, there were cross-overs, Joss directed episodes, it was produced by Mutant Enemy…_Angel_ is a part of the Whedonverse, period. ---
**Author:** ![Ephemera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8baadc/32.png) [@Ephemera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ephemera)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2009, 1:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-whedonverse/512992/47 "2009-10-09T01:05:48Z")
Who’s disputing that? We’re discussing the level of his involvement, not whether or not it was his show, which it indisputably was. ---
**Author:** ![Antinor01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecae2f/32.png) [@Antinor01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Antinor01)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2009, 1:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-whedonverse/512992/48 "2009-10-09T01:25:34Z")
I never watched Firefly, Serenity or Dr Horrible, only caught a bit of Dollhouse and really didn’t get into it (though I’d give it another shot for Eliza), Buffy the movie was meh and I’m not really a comic kinda guy. That leaves Buffy and Angel. I love them both different reasons but Buffy is what brought me into the Whedonverse so it’s the winner. ---
**Author:** ![Claire\_Beauchamp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ec9cab/32.png) [@Claire\_Beauchamp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Claire_Beauchamp)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2009, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-whedonverse/512992/49 "2009-10-10T15:50:51Z")
> [@Aesiron](#): > > \*Firefly \*didn’t really show any strong feminist leanings Exsqueeze me? Sure, it’s not in-your-face-preachy, but that’s sort of the apogee of feminism – that women (and men) aren’t restricted by gender. Zoe is a kick-butt soldier, Kaylee is the mechanic, Inara is, yes, a “companion” but 112% there by choice and in charge (and in that time in a more _generally_ respected profession than in current culture). River is a prototypical Whedon heroine – seemingly ultra-feminine, even doll-like, but the most lethal person around when push comes to shove. I’m not saying _Firefly_ is a perfect model of feminism, but to say it’s not as feminist as other Whedon shows is just silly. ---
**Author:** ![TBG](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c89c15/32.png) [@TBG](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TBG)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2009, 10:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-whedonverse/512992/50 "2009-10-10T22:36:32Z")
I think Angel season 2 is my favorite anything by Whedon. ---
**Author:** ![Ichini\_Sanshigo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/d9b06d/32.png) [@Ichini\_Sanshigo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ichini_Sanshigo)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2009, 10:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-whedonverse/512992/51 "2009-10-10T22:39:36Z")
_Angel_, hands down, followed by _Dr. Horrible_ and _Buffy_ (but not the last season). I know I’m a minority on this board, but I didn’t really like what I saw of _Firefly_. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2009, 9:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-whedonverse/512992/52 "2009-10-11T09:27:03Z")
I went with Doctor Horrible because I’m now on a serious comedy binge. Most dramas drive me crazy. In the past, though I would have chosen Angel, though only after the first season. I’ve not seen the rest at all, though. And, right now, it wouldn’t be my thing. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2009, 10:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-whedonverse/512992/53 "2009-10-11T10:02:34Z")
If Firefly had lasted longer, it would probably have had my vote; but I can’t compare an incomplete series to a complete one. You don’t get awards for having a lot of potential. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2009, 10:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-whedonverse/512992/54 "2009-10-11T10:32:56Z")
Firefly. I will never in a million years understand why it got cancelled. Great mysteries of our time material, right there. It’s like cancelling bacon, or chocolate, or sex. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-whedonverse/512992.md?page=2)