# The white flag dem, GOP campaign is coming. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [December 9, 2005, 3:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-white-flag-dem-gop-campaign-is-coming/334822 "2005-12-09T03:34:35Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![lonesome\_loser](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/c68b51/32.png) [@lonesome\_loser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lonesome_loser)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2005, 1:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-white-flag-dem-gop-campaign-is-coming/334822/61 "2005-12-10T01:42:10Z")
> [@World Eater](#): > > Yeah forgot about that as well. > > Cmon Rick, you’re smarter then falling for that bullshit. No he’s not. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2005, 1:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-white-flag-dem-gop-campaign-is-coming/334822/62 "2005-12-10T01:53:27Z")
> [@lonesome loser](#): > > No he’s not. Agreed. He’s not smarter than that. Let’s review: > [@Lonesome Loser](#): > > All of them. Every last mothers son/daughter. Tomorrow if not before. Before one more mother loses her child. This was your proposal for how troops should be brought back. > [@Bricker](#): > > Seems to me there was just such a proposal in Congress recently. Clearly, there **was** such a proposal in Congress recently: it was the disingenuous Republican proposal put forward to try to poison the well. Their attempt backfired, because almost every Democrat in the House recognized that it was a foolish proposal, unlike Murtha’s well-considered, measured approach. So the answer to Rick’s question was, it got shot down like **Clothahump** at a Mensa singles party. > [@world eater](#): > > Yes, where the repubs put forth a shittier version of what the dems were going to draft and voted their own proposal down down. > > IIRC Murtha was talking within 6 months, not literally the next morning. So **World Eater** recognizes that **lonesome loser’s** proposal is equivalent to the shittier version set forth by the Republicans. What’s the problem? I suspect **Bricker** knew exactly what he was talking about. As I took his point, **LL’s** proposal of bringing everyone home tomorrow was one that not even the Democrats would support; it’s therefore a non-starter. Murtha’s proposal wasn’t, at that point, on the table; but when we set it on the table, it’s not addressed by **Bricker’s** argument. At least, that’s how I read it. Daniel ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2005, 1:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-white-flag-dem-gop-campaign-is-coming/334822/63 "2005-12-10T01:54:47Z")
> [@Left Hand of Dorkness](#): > > Agreed. He’s not smarter than that. To clarify, when I say he’s not smarter than that, I mean that his point, being unrefuted by the sequence of posts, doesn’t reflect poorly on his intelligence; saying he’s smarter than that is not a relevant snipe, since his point remains valid. Daniel ---
**Author:** ![lonesome\_loser](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/c68b51/32.png) [@lonesome\_loser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lonesome_loser)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2005, 2:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-white-flag-dem-gop-campaign-is-coming/334822/64 "2005-12-10T02:11:09Z")
> [@Left Hand of Dorkness](#): > > To clarify, when I say he’s not smarter than that, I mean that his point, being unrefuted by the sequence of posts, doesn’t reflect poorly on his intelligence; saying he’s smarter than that is not a relevant snipe, since his point remains valid. > > Daniel Eh. When you squawk like an idiot, follow blindly like an idiot. You are an idiot. Regardless of your intelligence. ---
**Author:** ![Cervaise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cervaise/32/16693_2.png) [@Cervaise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cervaise)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2005, 2:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-white-flag-dem-gop-campaign-is-coming/334822/65 "2005-12-10T02:33:54Z")
> [@Maeglin](#): > > **Clothahump** , your interpretation and analysis of polling statistics is to laugh. Maybe if we keep this thread active for another week and a half, **Humpy** will actually come back and offer a tepid retraction wrapped in a protective coat of subject-changing accusation. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2005, 3:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-white-flag-dem-gop-campaign-is-coming/334822/66 "2005-12-10T03:43:33Z")
> [@lonesome loser](#): > > Eh. When you squawk like an idiot, follow blindly like an idiot. > > You are an idiot. > > Regardless of your intelligence. What, may I ask politely and respectfully, the fuck are you saying here? Daniel ---
**Author:** ![lonesome\_loser](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/c68b51/32.png) [@lonesome\_loser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lonesome_loser)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2005, 3:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-white-flag-dem-gop-campaign-is-coming/334822/67 "2005-12-10T03:54:35Z")
> [@Left Hand of Dorkness](#): > > What, may I ask politely and respectfully, the fuck are you saying here? > > Daniel That Bricker is an idiot. ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2005, 4:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-white-flag-dem-gop-campaign-is-coming/334822/68 "2005-12-10T04:11:15Z")
Cool thread. Insults, defensiviness, sidtracking, all the good stuff. But, back to the OP. I haven’t seen the commercial on TV yet, only the “preview” on the web. It’s offensive. What it is saying is, “if you don’t stay the course you are a damn coward and a lousy traitor”. What a great way to “unite and unify”, as the Republican party once promised to do. Just what we need. Keep pouring more gasoline on the fires, folks. Way to go. “Stay the course” and all that. “Either you are with us, or you are with the terrorists”. I guess the next batch of ads will have a huge “kill the traitors” banner, and selected Coulter videos? Keep in mind, some of “us” were fully behind Bush and the invasion of Afghanistan, and wanted Osama’s severed head paraded down “Main Street”. We were glad when the Taliban were toppled. We understood who and where the enemy was. Well what happened then. Sure I’m using hyperbole, but what the fuck, this “ad” is pure hyperbole anyway. It’s offensive and stupid. I’ve scraped shit off my boots that smelled better. ---
**Author:** ![lonesome\_loser](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/c68b51/32.png) [@lonesome\_loser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lonesome_loser)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2005, 4:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-white-flag-dem-gop-campaign-is-coming/334822/69 "2005-12-10T04:16:43Z")
I supported the invasion of Afghanistan, because I thought we were truly going to get Osama. Boy was I fooled. “Fool me once…shame on…shame on you…fool me can’t get fooled again.” ---
**Author:** ![World\_Eater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f04885/32.png) [@World\_Eater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/World_Eater)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2005, 4:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-white-flag-dem-gop-campaign-is-coming/334822/70 "2005-12-10T04:27:05Z")
I fully support Afghanistan as well, funny how you never hear anyone complain about that move. Probably because there was a clear reason to go in. One of the main reasons I want the troops out of Iraq is because I’d like to send them someplace where they’ll be more effective. Send more to a certain border area of Afghanistan for example. ---
**Author:** ![World\_Eater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f04885/32.png) [@World\_Eater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/World_Eater)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2005, 4:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-white-flag-dem-gop-campaign-is-coming/334822/71 "2005-12-10T04:35:04Z")
> [@World Eater](#): > > I fully support Afghanistan as well, funny how you never hear anyone complain about that move. Probably because there was a clear reason to go in. One of the main reasons I want the troops out of Iraq is because I’d like to send them someplace where they’ll be more effective. > > Send more to a certain border area of Afghanistan for example. I think a few days with little sleep is enough to excuse the requirement of proper grammar. ---
**Author:** ![NDP](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ndp/32/55_2.png) [@NDP](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NDP)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2005, 6:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-white-flag-dem-gop-campaign-is-coming/334822/72 "2005-12-10T06:33:55Z")
> [@SteveG1](#): > > I haven’t seen the commercial on TV yet, only the “preview” on the web. It’s offensive. What it is saying is, “if you don’t stay the course you are a damn coward and a lousy traitor”. > What a great way to “unite and unify”, as the Republican party once promised to do. Just what we need. Keep pouring more gasoline on the fires, folks. Way to go. “Stay the course” and all that. “Either you are with us, or you are with the terrorists”. I guess the next batch of ads will have a huge “kill the traitors” banner, and selected Coulter videos? Bush and his Republican Party brain trust may have promised at one time to “unite and unify” (and, for the sake of argument, I’ll assume they were being sincere) but they soon quickly realized there was no political capital to be gained from it. Their right-wing base is more likely to open up their checkbooks and show up at the voting booths if they’re angry and riled up over some domestic foe. That’s why in terms of getting GOP candidates elected, the Iraqi War works a lot better then the war against Al Qaeda and the Taliban because it _is_ a divisive affair. For the Republicans, it perfectly crystallizes the difference between “us” (i.e., loyal, Christian, family-oriented, hardworking, salt-of-the-earth, conservative red-staters) and “them” (i.e., traitorous, secular, gay marriage advocating, decadent, arrogant, weak-willed, elitist liberal blue-state Democrats). > [@](#): > > Keep in mind, some of “us” were fully behind Bush and the invasion of Afghanistan, and wanted Osama’s severed head paraded down “Main Street”. We were glad when the Taliban were toppled. We understood who and where the enemy was. Well what happened then. The trouble with the campaign against Osama Bin Laden is nearly everybody is behind it. We all want to get him and destroy Al Qaeda. There’s not too many ways Republicans can use this war to accuse Democrats of being disloyal without sounding stupid to even a hardcore right-winger. > [@](#): > > Sure I’m using hyperbole, but what the fuck, this “ad” is pure hyperbole anyway. It’s offensive and stupid. I’ve scraped shit off my boots that smelled better. True, but as ludicrous these ads may be, they seem to work: they get Republicans elected. They’ll only disappear when they cease to be effective. ---
**Author:** ![Binarydrone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/3da27b/32.png) [@Binarydrone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Binarydrone)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2005, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-white-flag-dem-gop-campaign-is-coming/334822/73 "2005-12-10T17:33:11Z")
> [@Cervaise](#): > > Maybe if we keep this thread active for another week and a half, **Humpy** will actually come back and offer a tepid retraction wrapped in a protective coat of subject-changing accusation. Meh, statistics can be made to say anything. I, for one, remain unwavering in my support of whatever fuckwit thing our Leader tells us to believe. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2005, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-white-flag-dem-gop-campaign-is-coming/334822/74 "2005-12-10T18:20:55Z")
> [@lonesome loser](#): > > That Bricker is an idiot. This demonstrates either that you’re a partisan tool, or just a tool. I disagree with **Bricker** on many subjects, but I can respect him as an exceedingly intelligent, thoughtful, and eloquent poster. I agree with you on many subjects, but you haven’t yet demonstrated any of those qualities to me. I’d like to have **Bricker** on my side of the issues, but you? At this point, I’m not sure I do. Daniel ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2005, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-white-flag-dem-gop-campaign-is-coming/334822/75 "2005-12-10T19:31:35Z")
> [@Left Hand of Dorkness](#): > > This demonstrates either that you’re a partisan tool, or just a tool. I disagree with **Bricker** on many subjects, but I can respect him as an exceedingly intelligent, thoughtful, and eloquent poster. I agree with you on many subjects, but you haven’t yet demonstrated any of those qualities to me. I’d like to have **Bricker** on my side of the issues, but you? At this point, I’m not sure I do. > > Daniel I’ve been on the other side of Bricker. One thing about him, you’d better have the facts straight or you’ll get spanked. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2005, 11:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-white-flag-dem-gop-campaign-is-coming/334822/76 "2005-12-10T23:29:10Z")
I have a question for you all. Your opinion is that dissent in wartime is fine, and that it’s wrong to label people as unpatriotic who oppose the war. But let me ask you - are there any limits at all? At what point would you criticise the way someone expresses opposition to the war? I’d like to know what you think the limits should be on the way in which you protest the war. I imagine we can agree that giving up secrets to the enemy would be bad. How about appearing with the insurgency in a propaganda film? Going to Iraq to tell the Iraqi people that they are the victims of an unjust war? Going on national TV and characterizing American soldiers as being the kinds of people who kick in doors at midnight to terrorize women and children? Are there any limits at all? ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2005, 11:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-white-flag-dem-gop-campaign-is-coming/334822/77 "2005-12-10T23:31:08Z")
Oh, and I’m not asking about banning such behaviour - I’m asking how far someone should go before you simply disagree with that they are doing - a bar that I assume should be set lower than an actual law preventing the behaviour. For example, it was legal for Jane Fonda to go to North Vietnam and have her photo taken manning an enemy anti-aircraft gun. But do you think it was wrong of her to do so? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2005, 12:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-white-flag-dem-gop-campaign-is-coming/334822/78 "2005-12-11T00:42:17Z")
> [@Sam Stone](#): > > For example, it was legal for Jane Fonda to go to North Vietnam and have her photo taken manning an enemy anti-aircraft gun. But do you think it was wrong of her to do so? Yes, and even she says it was a mistake now. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2005, 12:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-white-flag-dem-gop-campaign-is-coming/334822/79 "2005-12-11T00:43:59Z")
> [@Sam Stone](#): > > Oh, and I’m not asking about banning such behaviour - I’m asking how far someone should go before you simply disagree with that they are doing - a bar that I assume should be set lower than an actual law preventing the behaviour. I’m not understanding your question. If I believe the war is a just war, then the moment someone shrugs their shoulders as if to suggest that they don’t think the war is just, I disagre with them. However, if I believe the war is just, then I don’t think they’re behaving **unethically** unless they lie about the war. War doesn’t really bring any special considerations into play: war is just mass killing, and my system of ethics covers killing without making qualitative distinctions for nationality or the scope of the killing. As for Jane Fonda: she posed with an anti-aircraft gun. She was expressing, as such, a desire to see a US soldier be killed (I assume); in doing so, she was behaving almost as unethically as a person who poses next to a US Jet fighter, implicitly expressing a desire to see a Vietnamese soldier be killed. I do not believe she was behaving dishonestly, and so she was not unethical in her expression, although her expression may be a symptom of an unethical desire. Daniel ---
**Author:** ![NDP](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ndp/32/55_2.png) [@NDP](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NDP)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2005, 12:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-white-flag-dem-gop-campaign-is-coming/334822/80 "2005-12-11T00:58:20Z")
> [@Sam Stone](#): > > For example, it was legal for Jane Fonda to go to North Vietnam and have her photo taken manning an enemy anti-aircraft gun. But do you think it was wrong of her to do so? Wrong, stupid, and incredibly naive on her part. However, that was over 30 years ago in a completely different war. In this conflict, the Democrats have done nothing even remotely comparable (despite what the right-wing spin machine says). I know it’s bad form to answer a question with another question but when Clinton got the U.S. involved in Kosovo, was it wrong for the Republicans in Congress to criticize the decision? A lot of the some people now attacking opponents of the Iraqi War as wimps and traitors raked Clinton over the coals over it. Were they “unpatriotic milksops” too? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-white-flag-dem-gop-campaign-is-coming/334822.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-white-flag-dem-gop-campaign-is-coming/334822.md?page=5)