# The white flag dem, GOP campaign is coming. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [December 9, 2005, 3:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-white-flag-dem-gop-campaign-is-coming/334822 "2005-12-09T03:34:35Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2005, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-white-flag-dem-gop-campaign-is-coming/334822/101 "2005-12-12T15:58:04Z")
> [@Squink](#): > > So to keep you happy, all we have to do is draw the line somewhere short of organ failure or death? Please elaborate. Daniel ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2005, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-white-flag-dem-gop-campaign-is-coming/334822/102 "2005-12-12T17:16:29Z")
> [@Sevastopol](#): > > Instead the arts of deception have been refined to a plane heretofore unimaginable. > > Probably the 2 major tactics the Democrats should emulate are as follows: > > 1. Acquire a number of tame media outlets. Cash is the problem with this one. > 2. Practice and refine the art of the deniable insinuation: “\*He never said 'Imminent Threat.” “It was never stated that Iraq was responsible for 9/11.” > > It’s really much like debate here: Respect through fear. The Democrats are never going to win with logically cogent positions: **They must display the same deep aversion to integrity that has proven such a winner**. Now that God is dead, everything is permitted. Yeah, he never said “blahblahblah”. But he did say “meeblemeeblemeeble”. I don’t personally give a hoot what he LITERALLY said. Not anymore than you do. I think you’l agree, playing the “you didn’t get the words exactly right” game is partisan horse shit. And for the record, during the first presidential debate Bush DID say Iraq attacked us on 9/11. Well, he strongly hinted and tap danced and wanted us all to have that “perception” at any rate. I like how he clumsily conflated Saddam and Osama too. Nice touch. > [@debate transcript](#): > > In Iraq, we saw a threat, and we realized that after September the 11th, we must take threats seriously, before they fully materialize. Saddam Hussein now sits in a prison cell… > My opponent looked at the same intelligence I looked at and declared in 2002 that Saddam Hussein was a grave threat… > Of course we’re after Saddam Hussein – I mean bin Laden. He’s isolated. Seventy-five percent of his people have been brought to justice… > But the enemy attacked us, Jim, and I have a solemn duty to protect the American people, to do everything I can to protect us… > There’s just no doubt in my mind we would rue the day, had Saddam Hussein been in power… > He had the capability of making weapons, and he would have made weapons… In other words, the connection between 9/11 and Saddam was deliberately made, while carefully NOT actually SAYING that. [http://www.australianpolitics.com/news/2002/09/02-09-12b.shtml](http://www.australianpolitics.com/news/2002/09/02-09-12b.shtml) > [@Australian Politics](#): > > Iraq A Grave And Gathering Danger: Bush To United Nations > President George W. Bush has mounted a case against the Iraqi regime of Saddam Hussein, describing it as a “grave and gathering danger”. Addressing the United Nations General Assembly in New York City, Bush said: " The history, the logic, and the facts lead to one conclusion: **Saddam Hussein’s regime is a grave and gathering danger**. To suggest otherwise is to hope against the evidence. To assume this regime’s good faith is to bet the lives of millions and the peace of the world in a reckless gamble. And this is a risk we must not take." > [@whitehouse.gov](#): > > MR. McCLELLAN: Make no mistake about it, I said obviously it’s important to look at what we knew before the war and compare that with what we’ve learned after the war. But that work is ongoing, and I think you will agree that it’s important to gather as many facts as possible, to let the Iraq Survey Team complete its work, which is to pursue the truth, to find the truth – that’s their mission – and to gather all that information. Then we look and compare with what we knew before with what we’ve learned since, after the Iraq Survey Group has completed its work. > But we already know – and you said something about accurate description. It was very accurate to say that Saddam Hussein was a dangerous man and a gathering threat, and it was important to confront that threat. … > > Q I understand that, but what has been found isn’t what was claimed to have been there. And I just wonder, is the President at all concerned about credibility, going forward in this crucial area of weapons proliferation? > MR. McCLELLAN: The President, as he said earlier, wants to know the facts. And the Iraq Survey Group is gathering the facts. They’re drawing as complete a picture as possible. And we should let them complete their work. Then we can go and compare what we knew before with what we learned after. But it doesn’t change the bottom line. Saddam Hussein was a gathering threat. He was a grave and gathering threat to the world and to America. And it was important that we took the action that we did, particularly in a post-September 11th world that taught us the importance of confronting threats before it is too late. Grave and gathering threat - but no evidence, not even after we have had ample opportunity to ransack Iraq looking for WMD. Also, when brought back to Iraq, to help find the weapons he claimed were there (he knew where they are, he said), the “Iraqi engineer” was also unable to find them. Very strange. I guess you’ve seen this too? > **[Politics News](https://www.rollingstone.com/politics/politics-news/)** > [@Rolling Stone Article](#): > > The Man Who Sold the War > Meet John Rendon, Bush’s general in the propaganda war > …worldwide media blitz designed to turn Hussein, a once dangerous but now contained regional leader, into the greatest threat to world peace… > conduct covert disinformation and deception operations – planting false news items in the media and hiding their origins… > “coerce” foreign journalists and plant false information overseas… > “formalize government deception, dishonesty and misinformation.”… > Never before in history had such an extensive secret network been established to shape the entire world’s perception of a war. “It was not just bad intelligence – it was an orchestrated effort,”… > “It began before the war, was a major effort during the war and continues as post-conflict distortions.” > … > **I can tell you what’s on the evening news tonight in a country before it happens** … > the falsified story about weapons of mass destruction… > ironically titled “Iraq: Denial and Deception,” … > **"That has to be fixed for the next war."** The next war??? Hmmm. Syria maybe? Iran? Maybe Iran, since they are nuclear capable, or soon will be. Funny though, Iran has INVITED American companies to bid on the construction of nuclear power plants. I doubt they’d do that if these were weapons factories. We’ll just have to see what Mister Rendon tells us to do. ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2005, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-white-flag-dem-gop-campaign-is-coming/334822/103 "2005-12-12T19:45:19Z")
> [@Left Hand of Dorkness](#): > > Please elaborate. > Daniel To become as corrupt as the the republicans, the dems would have to use the products of tortured interrogations to mislead the nation into a half trillion dollar war of opportunity that fails even the lowbar test of being preventative, and kill [30,000 plus](http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20051212/ap_on_go_pr_wh/bush) foreigners in the process. To even begin to match that, the party would have to unite behind the likes of Joe Lieberman and Zell Miller, and that’s just _not_ going to happen. ---
**Author:** ![World\_Eater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f04885/32.png) [@World\_Eater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/World_Eater)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2005, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-white-flag-dem-gop-campaign-is-coming/334822/104 "2005-12-12T20:00:33Z")
> [@Sam Stone](#): > > For example, I can remember a time not too long ago when it was unheard of for an ex-president to criticise a sitting president, and especially outside of the country. IIRC correctly it was eaither in this thread or another where someone stated this wasn’t the case. > [@](#): > > That limit seems to be gone now. In WWII, there was a lot of opposition to the war before it started, but once U.S. troops were committed most opposition stopped. According to the US history class I’m currently taking, it’s because it was illegal to speak out in time of war. > [@](#): > > In Vietnam, it seemed like ‘anything goes’. Spitting on soldiers? Sure. Screaming that they were baby killers? Why not? Posing with the enemy on a gun used to shoot down Americans? Right on, baby. According to the same class, not declaring war left people to speak free without repercussions. > [@](#): > > What if, say, Michael Moore went to Iraq and made a propaganda film for the insurgency, urging them on in their cause? I’d say he crossed a big line. > [@](#): > > Is it okay for John Kerry to characterize American soldiers as thugs who kick in doors at midnight and terrorize women and children? I think he should be allowed to say what he feels. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2005, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-white-flag-dem-gop-campaign-is-coming/334822/105 "2005-12-12T20:30:58Z")
> [@Squink](#): > > To become as corrupt as the the republicans Ah. So if I understand you correctly, were you pretending that when I said I wouldn’t support Democrats if they were as corrupt as the Republicans, I was also saying that I WOULD support Democrats if they were almost as bad as the Republicans? If so, can you elaborate on why you’d pretend that’s what I was saying? I mean, what’s your angle? Do you really think that’s what I meant? Daniel ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2005, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-white-flag-dem-gop-campaign-is-coming/334822/106 "2005-12-12T20:56:26Z")
So where do you draw the line **LHoD**? Is noticing a dem calling the president a lying coward enough to flip your allegations over to the republicans, or do you need something more concrete, such as democrats clogging the phone lines of GOP get out the vote campaigns, engaging in bogus defense contracts, or using the justice department to gerrymander voting districts? Are words enough to turn you, or do actions count too? Do you use an absolute standard for corrupt behavior, or are you a relativist? Do you hold the democrats to a higher standard than the republicans? ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2005, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-white-flag-dem-gop-campaign-is-coming/334822/107 "2005-12-12T21:04:05Z")
> [@Squink](#): > > So where do you draw the line **LHoD**? Is noticing a dem calling the president a lying coward enough to flip your allegations over to the republicans, or do you need something more concrete, such as democrats clogging the phone lines of GOP get out the vote campaigns, engaging in bogus defense contracts, or using the justice department to gerrymander voting districts? Are words enough to turn you, or do actions count too? Do you use an absolute standard for corrupt behavior, or are you a relativist? Do you hold the democrats to a higher standard than the republicans? “Enough to flip me over to the Republicans?” What on earth are you talking about? What on earth have I ever posted that makes you think I’d flip over to the Republicans? What sort of weird ethical system do you think I have? I’m not interested in playing twenty hypothetical questions with you, **Squink** , especially when I still can’t tell what your point is. If you think that I’m wrong to demand high standards from a politician before I support them, you need to explain why this is wrong of me, not ask me a bazillion vaguely related questions in hopes of exhausting me. And if your point isn’t that I shouldn’t hold politicians to high ethical standards, you need to explain your point further, using declarative sentences. Daniel ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2005, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-white-flag-dem-gop-campaign-is-coming/334822/108 "2005-12-12T21:37:08Z")
> [@](#): > > If you think that I’m wrong to demand high standards from a politician before I support them, you need to explain why this is wrong of me… Demanding inordinately high standards of politicians before you will support them helps ensure that the less ethically exacting voters get their candidates elected. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2005, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-white-flag-dem-gop-campaign-is-coming/334822/109 "2005-12-12T21:50:30Z")
> [@Squink](#): > > Demanding inordinately high standards of politicians before you will support them helps ensure that the less ethically exacting voters get their candidates elected. Given how many people cite moral values as a reason for casting their vote, I believe you’re wrong: it’s just that people tend not to see either candidate as being morally sound. If you want to make a case that this is so, please feel free to make it; without evidence, however, I’m going to operate on the ethically simple position of supporting ethical candidates. Daniel ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2005, 10:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-white-flag-dem-gop-campaign-is-coming/334822/110 "2005-12-12T22:04:32Z")
> [@Left Hand of Dorkness](#): > > “Enough to flip me over to the Republicans?” What on earth are you talking about? What on earth have I ever posted that makes you think I’d flip over to the Republicans? What sort of weird ethical system do you think I have? > > I’m not interested in playing twenty hypothetical questions with you, **Squink** , especially when I still can’t tell what your point is. If you think that I’m wrong to demand high standards from a politician before I support them, you need to explain why this is wrong of me, not ask me a bazillion vaguely related questions in hopes of exhausting me. And if your point isn’t that I shouldn’t hold politicians to high ethical standards, you need to explain your point further, using declarative sentences. > > Daniel It’s just bullshit. Seems to me, it’s the Repubs doing the name calling all over the media, in speeches, etc. It is the old song and dance - “they” can accuse, insult, and **flat out lie** but only they can. But, in the meanwhile, I will call Bush a liar and a coward. I got no problem with it. Further, I will call him a spoiled little rich boy and a pansy ass wimp, who likes to play soldier (mission accomplished) but that’s as far as his personal patriotism goes. Finally, I feel purty good in calling his shills and pundits a pack of lying hypocritical bastards and unAmerican scumbags. There. That should cover it. How dare any of them shove a white flag in someone else’s face. Below are some of the pearls of wisdom - lies, accusations, insults etc. Maybe we should be asking what does it take to finally flip over to the Democrats? Or the Libertarians? Or the Green Party? Or anybody? Bill O’Reilly: A tasteless attack on Cindy Sheehan. Sheehan, the mother of an American soldier killed in Iraq, garnered national media attention when she protested outside President Bush’s Crawford, Texas ranch in an attempt to get a meeting with the President. O’Reilly accused Sheehan of being “in bed with the radical left,” including – believe it or not – those dastardly “9-11 families.” Bill O’Reilly: Criticized The New York Times and other newspapers for misleading headlines that implied there was no link between Iraq and al Qaeda. He then followed with a clip of 9/11 Commission Chairman Thomas Kean saying: “There is no evidence that we can find whatsoever that Iraq or Saddam Hussein participated in any way in attacks on the United States – in other words, on 9/11. What we do say, however, is there were contacts between Iraq and Saddam Hussein, excuse me, al-Qaeda.” O’Reilly frantically stopped the clip, explaining it was the wrong sound bite, and proceeded to paraphrase the last part of the clip, but ignored the part that did not mesh with his criticism of the Times. Bill O’Reilly: "If the ACLU ever wants money, it should contact the al Qaeda fundraisers. No organization in America enables terrorism as much as the ACLU, period. It is putting your life in danger. Bill O’Reilly: "You know, if I’m the president of the United States, I walk right into Union Square, I set up my little presidential podium and I say, ‘Listen, citizens of San Francisco, if you vote against military recruiting, you’re not going to get another nickel in federal funds,’ And if Al Qaeda comes in here and blows you up, we’re not going to do anything about it. We’re going to say, look, every other place in America is off limits to you, except San Francisco. You want to blow up the Coit Tower? Go ahead. GWB: “While it’s perfectly legitimate to criticize my decision or the conduct of the war, it is deeply irresponsible to rewrite the history of how that war began,” GWB: “These baseless attacks send the wrong signal to our troops and to an enemy that is questioning America’s will,” David Horowitz: “Do I think some members of the anti-war movement are in actual formal contact with the radical Islamists and advancing their agendas. Yes I do." David Horowitz: “You see, the left isn’t forgiving or civil. Instead they are violently, fervently committed to their unholy war to tear down American democracy and replace it with their version – an Americanized version – of communism.” Jerry Falwell and Pat Robertson: And I fear, as Donald Rumsfeld, the Secretary of Defense, said yesterday, that this is only the beginning. And with biological warfare available to these monsters – the Husseins, the Bin Ladens, the Arafats – what we saw on Tuesday, as terrible as it is, could be miniscule if, in fact – if, in fact – God continues to lift the curtain and allow the enemies of America to give us probably what we deserve. … I really believe that the pagans, and the abortionists, and the feminists, and the gays and the lesbians who are actively trying to make that an alternative lifestyle, the ACLU, People For the American Way – all of them who have tried to secularize America – I point the finger in their face and say “you helped this happen.” Scott McClellan: So it is baffling that he is endorsing the policy positions of Michael Moore and the extreme liberal wing of the Democratic party. The eve of an historic democratic election in Iraq is not the time to surrender to the terrorists. Pat Buchanan: “If we had to take a million immigrants in, say Zulus, next year, or Englishmen, and put them up in Virginia, what group would be easier to assimilate and would cause less problems for the people of Virginia?” Pat Buchanan: “Our culture is superior. Our culture is superior because our religion is Christianity and that is the truth that makes men free.” Pat Robertson: “I’d like to say to the good citizens of Dover : if there is a disaster in your area, don’t turn to God, you just rejected Him from your city.” Pat Robertson: “I would warn Orlando that you’re right in the way of some serious hurricanes, and I don’t think I’d be waving those flags in God’s face if I were you.” Pat Robertson: “Individual Christians are the only ones really—and Jewish people, those who trust God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob—are the only ones that are qualified to have the reign, because hopefully, they will be governed by God and submit to Him.” Pat Robertson: “There is no such thing as separation of church and state in the Constitution. It is a lie of the Left and we are not going to take it anymore.” Sean Hannity: “It doesn’t say anywhere in the Constitution this idea of the separation of church and state.” Sean Hannity: “[W]hy wouldn’t anyone want to say the Pledge of Allegiance, unless they detested their own country or were ignorant of its greatness?” Sean Hannity: “[After 9-11], liberal Democrats at first showed little interest in the investigation of the roots of this massive intelligence failure…[Bush and his team] made it clear that determining the causes of America’s security failures and finding and remedying its weak points would be central to their mission.” Sean Hannity: “Look, we’ve had these reports, very disturbing reports – and I have actually spoken to people that have confirmed a lot of the reports – about the trashing of the White House. Pornographic materials left in the printers. They cut the phone lines. Lewd and crude messages on phone machines. Stripping of anything that was not bolted down on Air Force One. $200,000 in furniture taken out.” Sean Hannity: “I never questioned anyone’s patriotism.” Sean Hannity: (to attorney Stanley Cohen) “Is it you hate this president or that you hate America?” (4/30/03) Sean Hannity: “‘I hate America.’ This is the extreme left. There is a portion of the left – not everybody who’s left – that does hate this country and blame this country for the ills of the world…” There are plenty of Anne Coulter gems and Rush Limbaugh treasures too. Senator Robert Byrd: “ **The President and the Vice President need to reread the Constitution**. Asking questions, seeking honesty and truth, and pressing for accountability is **exactly what the Framers had in mind**. Questioning policies and practices, especially ones that have cost this nation more than 2,000 of her bravest sons and daughters, is a responsibility of every American. … The American **people are tired of these reprehensible tactics**. Circling the wagons will not serve this Administration well. What the people demand are the facts. They want their elected leaders to level with them. And, when it comes to the war in Iraq, this Administration seems willing to do anything it can to avoid the truth – a truth that I believe will reveal that the Bush Administration manipulated the facts in order to lead this nation on the road to war. … The Administration claims that the Congress had the same intelligence as the President before the war, and that independent commissions have determined that there was no misrepresentation of the intelligence. But neither claim is true.” ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2005, 10:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-white-flag-dem-gop-campaign-is-coming/334822/111 "2005-12-12T22:14:13Z")
> [@SteveG1](#): > > It’s just bullshit. Seems to me, it’s the Repubs doing the name calling all over the media, in speeches, etc. It is the old song and dance - “they” can accuse, insult, and **flat out lie** but only they can. Are you claimng I’m saying that “they” can accuse, insult, and flat out lie? If so, bullshit: I’m saying they shouldn’t be allowed to get away with it. If I may quote what a little Byrd told me, “The American **people are tired of these reprehensible tactics**.” The problem is that if Democrats engage in the same sort of reprehensible tactics, they forfeit the moral high ground. I do not want them to do so, and I am ready to withhold my vote from them if they do so. Daniel ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2005, 10:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-white-flag-dem-gop-campaign-is-coming/334822/112 "2005-12-12T22:40:22Z")
> [@Left Hand of Dorkness](#): > > Are you claimng I’m saying that “they” can accuse, insult, and flat out lie? If so, bullshit: I’m saying they shouldn’t be allowed to get away with it. If I may quote what a little Byrd told me, “The American **people are tired of these reprehensible tactics**.” > > The problem is that if Democrats engage in the same sort of reprehensible tactics, they forfeit the moral high ground. I do not want them to do so, and I am ready to withhold my vote from them if they do so. > > Daniel No, I’m calling bullshit on the one side already having a history of doing it and getting away with it, and then using a hypothetical defense of “yeah your people might do it some day too”. They should NOT get away with it, but “the people” eat it up and ask for more. An honest person can’t hold loyalty to a group that is already blatantly doing these things, and then demand that people on the other side switch over if there is even a hint of it from their party. If you withhold your vote from one party for allegedly doing it or maybe doing it in some future alternate universe, then why give your vote to a party that has a documented history of doing it? We know which side spews crap on a daily basis. We already know who forfeited the high ground long ago. I even gave a list. SO why waste your vote on them? According to your standards, they already don’t deserve your vote, so why flip??? Equal rules for both sides. Either both are expected to fight fair, but it isn’t happening. Level the playing field. Besides, my post was more of a reply to Squink. ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2005, 10:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-white-flag-dem-gop-campaign-is-coming/334822/113 "2005-12-12T22:44:38Z")
One other thing. I was askig Squink, what would it take to make HIM finally flip. Go back and read my post where I asked exactly that, and underlined it. I’m on your side here, LHoD. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2005, 10:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-white-flag-dem-gop-campaign-is-coming/334822/114 "2005-12-12T22:59:18Z")
> [@SteveG1](#): > > I’m on your side here, LHoD. Okay, sorry–I misunderstood what you were saying. Daniel ---
**Author:** ![bizzwire](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/958977/32.png) [@bizzwire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bizzwire)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2005, 12:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-white-flag-dem-gop-campaign-is-coming/334822/115 "2005-12-13T00:17:24Z")
> [@Garfield226](#): > > Don’t the Democrats realize that continually criticizing the Republicans without offering alternative solutions hasn’t worked for, oh, going on six years now? It’s not that the Democrats have no alternative solutions. It’s that they have been effectively frozen out of any substantive role by the GOP. Despite his claims to be a “Uniter, not a Divider,” This administrations mantra has been more along the lines of “My Way or the Highway,” ignoring anything that runs counter to their evangelical world view\*. Then they tell the party faithful that the Democrats have no plan, and voila…a meme is born. \*Denver Post, May 26, 2003: "‘We are trying to change the tones in the state capitals - and turn them toward bitter nastiness and partisanship,’ said Grover Norquist, a leading Republican strategist, who heads a group called Americans for Tax Reform… ‘Bipartisanship is another name for date rape.’ ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2005, 12:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-white-flag-dem-gop-campaign-is-coming/334822/116 "2005-12-13T00:21:24Z")
> [@Left Hand of Dorkness](#): > > Given how many people cite moral values as a reason for casting their vote, I believe you’re wrong: it’s just that people tend not to see either candidate as being morally sound… Who’s in power? Who’s running the secret prisons? Did some actual moral deficit ensure Kerry’s loss, or was it just that he wasn’t enough of a knight in shinining armor to entice the ivory tower crowd to come out and vote for him? ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2005, 12:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-white-flag-dem-gop-campaign-is-coming/334822/117 "2005-12-13T00:33:10Z")
> [@Squink](#): > > Who’s in power? Who’s running the secret prisons? > Did some actual moral deficit ensure Kerry’s loss, or was it just that he wasn’t enough of a knight in shinining armor to entice the ivory tower crowd to come out and vote for him? There were plenty of empty slogans and Swiftboating, but did you forget that? As for the secret prisons, look no further that the White House. “Who’s in power” is no answer. Today’s kings can be tomorrow’s convicts. Libby, DeLay, maybe Rove, maybe Cheney, Cunningham, etc. Fitzgerald may not be finished yet. **Besides, the OP was about that White Flag ad**. I wanna know. If the opposition are the surrender monkeys and cowards, how do we explain the gross disparities? The scaredycat Dems have some serious war medals. the brave courageous White House and its shills are a bunch of cowards. I think I already gave the list of who did or didn’t do what. ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2005, 1:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-white-flag-dem-gop-campaign-is-coming/334822/118 "2005-12-13T01:33:56Z")
After much searching, I found my partial list. [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=6862781&postcount=59](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=6862781&postcount=59) To be fair to the Republicans, we also have Colin Powell, Bob Dole, George HW Bush, John McCain, and others who did not act like little pansies. But, they are not in charge, are they? The wusses are. So then, regardless of who is in charge, which group deserves the white flag of cowardice? ---
**Author:** ![Merijeek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f05b48/32.png) [@Merijeek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merijeek)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2005, 1:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-white-flag-dem-gop-campaign-is-coming/334822/119 "2005-12-13T01:45:27Z")
> [@SteveG1](#): > > After much searching, I found my partial list. > > [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=6862781&postcount=59](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=6862781&postcount=59) > > To be fair to the Republicans, we also have Colin Powell, Bob Dole, George HW Bush, John McCain, and others who did not act like little pansies. But, they are not in charge, are they? The wusses are. > > So then, regardless of who is in charge, which group deserves the white flag of cowardice? Well, those golden avatars you list above also bent over and gave The Chickenhawks the reigns. They’ve said nothing. Even McCain, who was royally screwed by “his party” laps it up because it’s all about party over country, isn’t it? -Joe ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2005, 2:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-white-flag-dem-gop-campaign-is-coming/334822/120 "2005-12-13T02:08:27Z")
> [@World Eater](#): > > According to the US history class I’m currently taking, it’s because it was illegal to speak out in time of war. > > According to the same class, not declaring war left people to speak free without repercussions. > > I’d say he crossed a big line. > > I think he should be allowed to say what he feels. I don’t know for sure, but my gut instinct says your history prof is wrong. “As a matter of general principle, I believe there can be no doubt that criticism in time of war is essential to the maintenance of any kind of democratic government … too many people desire to suppress criticism simply because they think that it will give some comfort to the enemy to know that there is such criticism. If that comfort makes the enemy feel better for a few moments, they are welcome to it as far as I am concerned, because the maintenance of the right of criticism in the long run will do the country maintaining it a great deal more good than it will do the enemy, and will prevent mistakes which might otherwise occur.” - Robert A. Taft, 1941 (didn’t go to jail, despite it being World War 2) “The President and the Vice President need to reread the Constitution. Asking questions, seeking honesty and truth, and pressing for accountability is exactly what the Framers had in mind. …” - Robert Byrd (didn’t go to jail either) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-white-flag-dem-gop-campaign-is-coming/334822.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-white-flag-dem-gop-campaign-is-coming/334822.md?page=7)