# The white hood: heritage, not hate! **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [June 21, 2015, 2:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-white-hood-heritage-not-hate/723050 "2015-06-21T02:50:17Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 16
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2015, 4:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-white-hood-heritage-not-hate/723050/301 "2015-06-24T04:54:11Z")
> [@Smartass](#): > > At least, your post made me laugh. > > Yes, please, do stop going soft on us… > > -VM Here’s what I think “stop going soft” on those who deify/idolize those traitors should include: [ul][li]Name any roads after confederate leaders = loss of federal funds for said roads.[/li][li]Name any schools after confederate leaders = loss of federal funds for said schools.[/li][li]Federal legislation setting out some parameters for what a state, county, or municipal flag may include. For example: including any of the confederate flags or memorializing the confederacy in any way on the flag should be prohibited.[/ul][/li] How’s that grab you, coming from someone who grew up in the South? ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2015, 4:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-white-hood-heritage-not-hate/723050/302 "2015-06-24T04:54:37Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > No his post war activities are not respectable at all. I would not advocate changing stuff named after him either. Slippery slope would be nasty in this case Nope, don’t care. I think we can make some steps toward not, say, erecting and maintaining memorials to _murderous fucking slavers_ without worrying about having to cut the names of my idiot racist ancestors out of the family Bible, don’t you? His “post war activities?” How about his pre-war activities, like being, I dunno, a _murderous fucking slaver_? How about his inter-war activities, like atrocities that should have seen him hanged? And also, being a _fucking murderous slaver?_ > [@](#): > > Slippery slope is, in general, legitimate I’m sure you can back that up with evidence? ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2015, 5:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-white-hood-heritage-not-hate/723050/303 "2015-06-24T05:01:50Z")
When I was in college, one freshman put the Confederate flag in his window. It was fairly prominent: I would pass it every day. I never knowingly met the guy. I grew up in the Northeast and this struck me as seriously weird. Ditto for another NE friend of mine. We figured some Southerners were living in the past. But mostly we were baffled. Why revere a rebellion dedicated to keeping slavery and possibly low tariffs on manufactured goods? (Today I buy the latter even less: I had an AP knowledge of US history at the time.) Another friend from Virginia told me that the guy was actually from upstate New York. Wow. Even weirder. When I asked why, I was told that the guy thought it was cool. So yeah, I accept LHoD’s categories, until somebody makes a convincing argument otherwise. This seems to be a case of an ignorant idiot. It was also explained to me that among some, displaying the Confederate flag was a way of showing solidarity with the Klan. Oh. Didn’t know that. The flag remained in place in this northeastern college for 2 consecutive semesters, after which the guy moved elsewhere. I don’t recall anger or outrage. Personally, I was pretty quizzical. ## Some attention seekers like befuddling the normals. Some of those attention seekers are today called trolls. So I guess I’d say that a few of the assholes (category III) who fly the flag are also trolls, though I suppose there are a few trolls in category II (the ignorant). Hell, maybe the first category as well. TLDR: I don’t think the Confederate flag produced rage so much as weariness or perhaps confusion among non-Southerners. ## Billfish?'s argument way back: he might have been alluding to the observation that (oddly) those who lost wars tend to remember them longer than those who won them. Another poster described that phenomenon some time ago, but I couldn’t find the thread. > [@Robert163](#): > > But there really weren’t that many racist people in NYC… ## _::cough::_ ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2015, 5:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-white-hood-heritage-not-hate/723050/304 "2015-06-24T05:02:01Z")
I count my Southern, and in particular my Virginian, heritage in centuries. My people are from the Northern Neck, Westmoreland County, Birthplace of Presidents…and ancestral home of the Lees of Virginia and their eventual favored and reviled Son, Marse Robert. I can draw you a map of Stratford Hall with my eyes closed, and I know by heart three recipes that have been used in her kitchens for 200 years. That’s only a portion of my Southern _bona fides_. I bring it up only to say, and speaking of course only for myself: > [@Monty](#): > > How’s that grab you, coming from someone who grew up in the South? Grabs me just fucking fine. I’m with you entirely, **Monty**. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2015, 5:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-white-hood-heritage-not-hate/723050/305 "2015-06-24T05:16:05Z")
> [@andros](#): > > Nope, don’t care. I think we can make some steps toward not, say, erecting and maintaining memorials to _murderous fucking slavers_ without worrying about having to cut the names of my idiot racist ancestors out of the family Bible, don’t you? > > His “post war activities?” How about his pre-war activities, like being, I dunno, a _murderous fucking slaver_? How about his inter-war activities, like atrocities that should have seen him hanged? And also, being a _fucking murderous slaver?_ Well since we have Jefferson and Washington all over the country and they were slavers. A park or 2 with Forrest and a statue somewhere isn’t going to bother me. Hell, the only ones who will be offended are those who dig through history books looking to be offended. I’m surprised no one is calling for a complete purge of all those responsible for the eradication of Native Americans from our landscape. Perhaps there’d be no names left to choose. > [@andros](#): > > I’m sure you can back that up with evidence? Actually I can’t. I must have remembered incorrectly. In logic it’s defined as an informal fallacy. So strictly speaking I suppose it always is. But it seems that few people present the argument in a form that is logically a slippery slope yet in normal use is referred to and treated as a slippery slope. There’s a good discussion on this forum about it. [Slippery Slope is not a fallacy - Great Debates - Straight Dope Message Board](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=415232) Though it does bring up an interesting point about the role of pure logic in politics or other forms of persuasive activities. Just because something is a logical fallacy doesn’t mean it isn’t likely to be true. ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2015, 5:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-white-hood-heritage-not-hate/723050/306 "2015-06-24T05:24:19Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > Well since we have Jefferson and Washington all over the country and they were slavers. Remove those too. I think 12 of the first 16 presidents owned slaves. I think that is a pretty good idea, if you ever owned another human being you can’t have a road or a park or a hospital named after you. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2015, 5:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-white-hood-heritage-not-hate/723050/307 "2015-06-24T05:25:37Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > Remove those too. I think 12 of the first 16 presidents owned slaves. I think that is a pretty good idea, if you ever owned another human being you can’t have a road or a park or a hospital named after you. You serious? Yikes we’re in the cesspool known as “The Pit!” I am not ready for the pit lol. ---
**Author:** ![BrightNShiny](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@BrightNShiny](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrightNShiny)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2015, 5:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-white-hood-heritage-not-hate/723050/308 "2015-06-24T05:27:22Z")
I don’t even have to go back to the civil war. In the 60s, there was a spasm of white supremacist violence directed at African-Americans and civil rights workers all to deny African-Americans their constitutionally-guaranteed rights. People were beaten, had hoses turned on them and had dogs sicced on them. They were lynched and murder and terrorized. And the people committing these vile acts of terrorism waved that flag around. And one state or local government after another started waving that flag around to show support for the white supremacist terrorists. This isn’t ancient history. This happened within people’s living memory. I’m supposed to show sympathy for Southerners who want to fly this flag? I’m supposed to put myself in their shoes? Screw that. Where is the sympathy for the victims of this long period of immorality and terrorism and violence? Where is the sympathy for the families of the four little girls murdered in the 16th Street Baptist Church bombing? People who fly that flag are immoral assholes. ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2015, 5:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-white-hood-heritage-not-hate/723050/309 "2015-06-24T05:27:48Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > You serious? Yikes we’re in the cesspool known as “The Pit!” I am not ready for the pit lol. yes ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2015, 5:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-white-hood-heritage-not-hate/723050/310 "2015-06-24T05:31:16Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > yes Well any potential utility is soon to be drowned out by immature, profane rants so I’ll just have to say that’s a mistaken point of view. At what point does an imperfection in a person disqualify them from being remembered or honored by the continuation of a society they were a major part of? Abuse of power, killing civilians, corruption, conquering territory? History is not made by the weak and complacent. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2015, 5:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-white-hood-heritage-not-hate/723050/311 "2015-06-24T05:32:13Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > Well since we have Jefferson and Washington all over the country and they were slavers. I don’t believe they were. They were slave-_owners_, but a slaver is someone whose trade is selling other human beings. Forrest was a slaver. That’s an entirely different magnitude of evil. ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2015, 5:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-white-hood-heritage-not-hate/723050/312 "2015-06-24T05:33:36Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > Abuse of power, killing civilians, corruption, conquering territory? History is not made by the weak and complacent. All of those are perfectly good reasons to NOT have a park road or hospital named after you. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2015, 5:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-white-hood-heritage-not-hate/723050/313 "2015-06-24T05:34:00Z")
> [@BrightNShiny](#): > > I don’t even have to go back to the civil war. In the 60s, there was a spasm of white supremacist violence directed at African-Americans and civil rights workers all to deny African-Americans their constitutionally-guaranteed rights. People were beaten, had hoses turned on them and had dogs sicced on them. They were lynched and murder and terrorized. And the people committing these vile acts of terrorism waved that flag around. And one state or local government after another started waving that flag around to show support for the white supremacist terrorists. > > This isn’t ancient history. This happened within people’s living memory. I’m supposed to show sympathy for Southerners who want to fly this flag? I’m supposed to put myself in their shoes? Screw that. Where is the sympathy for the victims of this long period of immorality and terrorism and violence? Where is the sympathy for the families of the four little girls murdered in the 16th Street Baptist Church bombing? > > People who fly that flag are immoral assholes. There is plenty of sympathy for those families and for those who were enslaved. That’s what changed the conscience of the civilized portion of the world and moved people to be abolitionists. Sympathy is what helped with enforcing civil rights in the civilized world. Sympathy motivated people to fight hard for progress. And progress has come. ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2015, 5:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-white-hood-heritage-not-hate/723050/314 "2015-06-24T05:37:06Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > I don’t believe they were. They were slave-_owners_, but a slaver is someone whose trade is selling other human beings. Forrest was a slaver. That’s an entirely different magnitude of evil. That’s kind of like saying armed robbery is an entirely different level of evil than safe cracking. And that would be true. But I wouldn’t name a bank or a school of economics for a criminal who had committed either one of the crimes. That one charge is less evil is not really the point, is it? ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2015, 5:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-white-hood-heritage-not-hate/723050/315 "2015-06-24T05:39:33Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > There’s a difference being missed here, and also with the comparison to white hoods. It is safe to say that a white person wearing a white hood or using “nigger” is racist because there is no other reason for the hood or the use of the word. With the flag, which I don’t really care about one way or the other, a racist stance is ONE reason the flag is and has been flown, but it is not the only one. I’m Yankee who lived in the south for six years, and I see that the south is different. That’s true, by every socioeconomic indicator (education, life expectancy, obesity etc.) the South is behind the rest of the nation. For example, Mississippi has the dubious distinction of having a lower average life expectancy than any of the political subdivisions of Chilean and Argentine Republics. > [@](#): > > For instance, “southern hospitality” is really a thing. There is also a politeness one finds in the south. It was nice to experience and and southerners take great pride in that. Politically, there is the fact that the south was fighting for self determination, i.e., state’s rights. The self-determination/state’s rights \* to maintain and expand the institution of human slavery\*. And to be frank, I could have less than a shit about the “rights” of artificial political entities over that of actual human beings. > [@](#): > > The balance between a strong federal government and those rights is something we grapple with even today. To our misfortune, considering that the banner of “state’s rights” have been used mostly by reactionary forces. > [@](#): > > For many people, I’d say most, who like the flag, those are the the things that it borings to mind. Not slavery, an institution that no living southerner has experienced. It’s just not in their mindset. I think the that someone flies the flag is a fan of slavery is absurd. It’s as atavistic as someone who likes Nantucket wanting to bring back whale oil as a fuel source. > > I also accept that some people genuinely see the flag and the first thing that comes to mind is racism and slavery. I accept that the flag is a shitty symbol for them to see. But as far as that goes, two things. I’m not very interested in what meaning people put into the flag as opposed to what the flag actually stood for which you seem to be side-stepping. Unusually for conservatives, many of them have taken a postmodernist viewpoint that one can safely ignore the historical context of the Confederate flag and only talk about present perceptions. To me, to argue that the Confederate flag stood for anything other than the aggression of planter oligarchy of the South, is as absurd as interpreting the Scriptures to say Christ was a proto-Marxist revolutionary or that Shakespeare was a homosexual. Then of course, extensive use of the Confederate flag (especially in public places) began in the 1950s and '60s in opposition to the civil rights and integrationist movements. > [@](#): > > One is that I don’t think any of us have the right to not be offended. If a person can’t see the flag being flown and accept that it probably—very probably—is being flown for the non-racist reasons I mentioned above, sorry. Like I said, none of us has the right to be protected from all the things that might protect us. > > The other thing is that by people being so touchy about the flag they give the flag—the very symbol that they hate—great power. The analogy I use is the burning of the American flag. I don’t want to see it burned. But I do not want to make burring it against the law, for if it was, the act of burning the flag would immediately be a MUCH bigger deal, inadvertently giving MORE power to the the assholes who will burn it anyway. I don’t disagree with this in general which is why I probably wouldn’t be too upset if somebody displayed the Confederate flag on their private property. However, the current debate concerns displays of the flag on government property and here I think its reasonable for people to object. Similarly, I think artists have the right to make degenerate and blasphemous works like Piss Christ but I don’t think government should fund it and I think it was reasonable for people to object to public funds being used for it. > [@](#): > > Like I said, I have no particular affection for the southern flag. It wouldn’t bother me for a second if it didn’t exist. What does bother me is the notion that because some people read offense into it—and INSIST that racism or assholism are the only reasons one would want to fly it—that they can dictate what the flag means. Period. And they can then insist that they be protected against being offended. To that, this northern says, “Fuck that.” Or as I might have put it as a son of the south, "I shall give thoughts like that, wrongheaded that they are, no quarter. Do you grasp my position and degree of conviction, SIR?! I point once again to the actual historical context of the Confederate flag. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2015, 5:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-white-hood-heritage-not-hate/723050/316 "2015-06-24T05:40:17Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > I don’t believe they were. They were slave-_owners_, but a slaver is someone whose trade is selling other human beings. Forrest was a slaver. That’s an entirely different magnitude of evil. Good point. Still slaver and slave owner seems to be a tiny bit nit-picky when it comes to naming capitals of countries, states, places on the dollar bill, carved into Mt. Rushmore, or the ultimate honor an aircraft carrier. You can be a great person, worthy of remembrance, even if greatly flawed. ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2015, 5:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-white-hood-heritage-not-hate/723050/317 "2015-06-24T05:42:47Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > That’s kind of like saying armed robbery is an entirely different level of evil than safe cracking. And that would be true. But I wouldn’t name a bank or a school of economics for a criminal who had committed either one of the crimes. That one charge is less evil is not really the point, is it? This ignores of course that Washington ordered that his slaves be freed upon the death of his wife and Jefferson fought for gradual abolitionist measures. Not to mention that the logic of this would lead us to condemn every pre-Enlightenment Western figure as well as virtually every non-Western figure until the late 19th if not early 20th Centuries. ---
**Author:** ![BrightNShiny](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@BrightNShiny](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrightNShiny)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2015, 5:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-white-hood-heritage-not-hate/723050/318 "2015-06-24T05:44:05Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > There is plenty of sympathy for those families and for those who were enslaved. That’s what changed the conscience of the civilized portion of the world and moved people to be abolitionists. Sympathy is what helped with enforcing civil rights in the civilized world. Sympathy motivated people to fight hard for progress. And progress has come. Oh, please. Your characterization of this issue as “people looking to be offended” makes it clear what kind of person you are. I’m not looking to be offended. I am offended by the murder of four little girls in a church bombing. I am offended by the murder of Martin Luther King, Jr. and Medgar Evers. I am offended by the execution style killing of three civil rights workers for trying to register people to vote. You, on the other hand, are a terrible person who is trying to minimize what a bunch of monsters did while flying that flag. ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2015, 5:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-white-hood-heritage-not-hate/723050/319 "2015-06-24T05:44:43Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > Good point. Still slaver and slave owner seems to be a tiny bit nit-picky when it comes to naming capitals of countries, states, places on the dollar bill, carved into Mt. Rushmore, or the ultimate honor an aircraft carrier. You can be a great person, worthy of remembrance, even if greatly flawed. So what did Forrest do that was notable besides committing massacres in a rebellion against the US government and founding a terrorist organization after the war? ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2015, 5:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-white-hood-heritage-not-hate/723050/320 "2015-06-24T05:45:07Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > Good point. Still slaver and slave owner seems to be a tiny bit nit-picky when it comes to naming capitals of countries, states, places on the dollar bill, carved into Mt. Rushmore, or the ultimate honor an aircraft carrier. You can be a great person, worthy of remembrance, even if greatly flawed. Not if you owned another human being you can’t. That’s not just a “flaw”. Owning another human being is not “just a flaw”. It is evil. And before you say, well it was a long time ago and the culture was different back then, there were plenty of people who DIDN’T own human beings back them. Some of them even fought back against the process. Those people were called: Abolitionists. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-white-hood-heritage-not-hate/723050.md?page=15) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-white-hood-heritage-not-hate/723050.md?page=17)