# The white hood: heritage, not hate! **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [June 21, 2015, 2:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-white-hood-heritage-not-hate/723050 "2015-06-21T02:50:17Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 20
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2015, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-white-hood-heritage-not-hate/723050/381 "2015-06-24T18:04:12Z")
[This cartoon](http://www.koreatimes.co.kr/www/news/opinon/2015/06/195_181510.html) nicely sums up what “heritage” the confederate flag represents. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2015, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-white-hood-heritage-not-hate/723050/382 "2015-06-24T18:14:52Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > A facade of respectability is all you aim for, you dishonest weasel. You’ve been a nasty little insulter since your entrance into this thread, flying just under the Great Debates rules. It’s nice to be able to tell you how contemptible you are, with your hypocritical scoldings of other people. > > Not all Southern people engage in this sort of passive-aggressive “I’m not insulting you!” bullshit, but you’re kind of a poster-boy for this ugly part of Southern culture. Who started with all the asshole, racist, traitor accusations? That would be you. Who continued with that language even after multiple attempts to explain that life is a bit more nuanced? That would be you. You expect to be able to label potentially millions of people you don’t know, with hateful inaccurate language, and not have any pushback ? Freedom of speech being freedom of speech you are entitled to say what you wish. And you have a platform that lets you do so in a manner that allows you to direct vulgarities at people, but strangely draws the line at “cunt”, but the manner in which you judge and condemn people, even people that agree 95% with you on this issue, makes you no better than what you assume those people to be. Being a judgmental, hypocritical, intellectually dishonest prick is not admirable and that’s how you come across. That there is a critical mass of your type in Great Debates that’s full of snark and pettiness is a reflection on the moderation here. Great Debates could be the resource General Questions is but you all are a nasty intolerant bunch. I go back to the job thing, because one thing I have learned is to _initiate_ a conversation online as if you were in person. Would you say that to someone sitting across you? I guess if you relieve yourself by venting on the internet it might save your wife a beating. So I guess that’s the one upside. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2015, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-white-hood-heritage-not-hate/723050/383 "2015-06-24T18:19:13Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > Who started with all the asshole, racist, traitor accusations? That would be you. Talking about other people, not about you. And I stand by everything I said, including calling you a dishonest weasel. > [@](#): > > Being a judgmental, hypocritical, intellectually dishonest prick is not admirable Then fucking stop being that way. ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2015, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-white-hood-heritage-not-hate/723050/384 "2015-06-24T18:20:00Z")
I’m speaking as a poster here. > [@octopus](#): > > As an aside: I thought the Straight Dope forum was populated by intelligence. Well, you may have noticed that there are a range capabilities and that we do have a few dim bulbs. > [@](#): > > I see that indeed the posters here are more educated than the average but many of the posters here take a perverse pleasure in deliberately misreading and misrepresenting the views of others. That’s not really it. Typically people are pushing their POV. (Side remark: it looks like you are headed towards comparisons of pots and kettles.) For the moment you might want to contemplate whether a few of the conclusions drawn by others are reasonable trajectories of the views you have expressed. > [@](#): > > Yes, this is “the pit.” I suppose it’s a place where apparently erudite people can express how they truly feel without fear of sanction. Which I suppose makes one suspect how cowardly and dishonest they are outside of the pit. The pit is a safety valve used for personal attacks. This thread had degenerated to the point where it got tossed into the pit. There’s nothing cowardly about following rules or refraining from insulting others. Even if that’s what you feel. If you think it over, this is something that is mastered by most at a young age. Same for displaying manners in some circumstances, and not in others. The pit does have restrictions though. They are not especially difficult: you can read about them at the top of the forum. Oddly, this thread has one of the few examples of something that would have been moderated in the Pit, but was _not_ moderated in GD. I had never seen that before. I’m guessing that this was one of the more difficult threads to moderate. One of many, admittedly. Anyway, while this place has some of the best discussion on the web, I wouldn’t think of the members here as erudite. That way lies madness. ---
**Author:** ![Smartass](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/4491bb/32.png) [@Smartass](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smartass)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2015, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-white-hood-heritage-not-hate/723050/385 "2015-06-24T18:26:22Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > I don’t want to get into the semantics of it, and it would be a hijack to get into it here, but if you’d put post 195 in a Pit thread, I’d have given you a mod note for it. GD isn’t my forum, though, and it looks like **tom** felt the insults took precedence. I sometimes forget how long it’s been since I posted here, and there are probably people here that aren’t aware how much I enjoy creating dramatic narratives as part of my, er, arguments. Just to be clear, I don’t go to bars, and way back when I did, I never got in barfights. To me, the larger point is that, if the goal is to convince any actual southerners to take down their flags, telling them that the flag announces they are racist, ignorant, or assholes is a poor way to proceed. That’s probably true of anyone, but I think it’s particularly true of southerners. > [@Miller](#): > > Here’s the problem with this comparison: there is no B in this thread. Nobody (I don’t think) has come in and said, “I fly that flag.” So this is already a very different type of conversation. This is true, but given the tenor, it’s entirely possible that there are such people reading along but not posting because they don’t want to be BBQd or they’re just plain offended by the dialog. It’s also possible that none are here now but may decide to read it later. In any case, I feel comfortable saying that referring to them in this way will achieve no good end, and in person it would be a good way to start a fight. > [@Miller](#): > > The Overton window here isn’t over “People who fly the flag,” and “People who don’t,” it’s between “People who don’t fly the flag, and think nobody should,” and “People who don’t fly the flag, and don’t care if other people do.” Actually, all I’ve seen is people in the first group. The point is that, while I don’t think anyone should be flying the flag, I also don’t think it’s fair to label that entire group as composed exclusively of racists, idiots, and assholes. While that’s definitely true of some, discussing it in this way ignores a great deal of cultural context that does, in fact, influence the decision to fly the flag. When you start by casually misrepresenting people in such a negative way, the possibility of meaningful dialog is pretty much eliminated. Look at the OP: We start with the notion that flying the flag is no different than wearing the KKK hood. I know a great many southerners who would be very offended by that idea, particularly the tacit suggestion that violent racists are a uniquely southern thing. One of the things I can easily imagine people in my family saying is, basically, you want to criticize the south for the rebel flags? What about the racists in New York and Baltimore that, instead of flags, have badges and guns? And which group of racists is a better comparison to the KKK? Not claiming I know, but I really do wonder whether the average black person would be more intimidated by a southern racist with a flag on his truck or a more northern racist with a nightstick. Back to the KKK, one of the worst parts if its heyday was the fact that they committed violence with no legal repercussions. Sound familiar? > [@Miller](#): > > Obviously, this could change with the very next post, if somebody who does fly the Confederate flag shows up. But none of the posts you’ve been objecting to have been made in the context of getting a person to stop displaying the flag. They’ve been in the context of what’s the appropriate way for others to react to seeing someone display the flag. If the ultimate goal isn’t to generate positive change in the world, what’s the point of having the conversation at all? Let’s talk about how much we despise southern racists. Let’s debate exactly what kind of despicable we think they are. If that’s really the point, I never should have posted at all here. > [@Miller](#): > > You’re the one who keeps having to explain them to us poor ignorant Yankees, like your some species of rare bird. Your bar fight scenarios, for example, are not particular to the South. That’s how people would react to that sort of thing out here, too. You’re getting there…because my actual point was that southerners are people, too, who don’t react positively to being arbitrarily insulted. And I like descriptions that are vivid. > [@Miller](#): > > Seriously? Some guy says to you, “Yeah, I’m a Nazi,” and your response is, “Well, let’s hear him out?” You seem to be suggesting that some are all of these phrases are equivalent: I’m a southerner. I have southern pride. I fly a rebel flag. I am a racist. That’s kind of the core of the debate that I tried to join. Specifically, it absolutely is the case that there are people who fly the confederate flag who are NOT announcing “I am a racist.” Of course, in fairness, there are other people who are announcing just that. That doesn’t make it okay to casually conflate the two. > [@Miller](#): > > It’s a difficult balancing act. We do moderate for group insults, but we also want to balance that against not suppressing legitimate points of view, and not requiring everyone to post like robots. And, admittedly, I sometimes go out of my way to make drawing that line difficult. However, I think it’s worth noting that selecting an entire group of people and declaring that every one of them must be racist, ignorant, or an asshole is insulting. Which side of the line should it fall on? I really don’t know. But it is pretty much a reflex for me to want to insult back. Not saying that it’s a good reflex or something I’m proud of but, well, there you go. -VM ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2015, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-white-hood-heritage-not-hate/723050/386 "2015-06-24T18:43:13Z")
> [@Measure\_for\_Measure](#): > > I’m speaking as a poster here. Well, you may have noticed that there are a range capabilities and that we do have a few dim bulbs. That’s not really it. Typically people are pushing their POV. (Side remark: it looks like you are headed towards comparisons of pots and kettles.) For the moment you might want to contemplate whether a few of the conclusions drawn by others are reasonable trajectories of the views you have expressed. The pit is a safety valve used for personal attacks. This thread had degenerated to the point where it got tossed into the pit. > > There’s nothing cowardly about following rules or refraining from insulting others. Even if that’s what you feel. If you think it over, this is something that is mastered by most at a young age. Same for displaying manners in some circumstances, and not in others. > > The pit does have restrictions though. They are not especially difficult: you can read about them at the top of the forum. Oddly, this thread has one of the few examples of something that would have been moderated in the Pit, but was _not_ moderated in GD. I had never seen that before. > > I’m guessing that this was one of the more difficult threads to moderate. One of many, admittedly. Anyway, while this place has some of the best discussion on the web, I wouldn’t think of the members here as erudite. That way lies madness. The view that I expressed is that a word or symbol should be judged in the context in which it’s used. I don’t know if anyone in here plays sports with blacks but if they did they’d hear a certain “racist” word a 100 times a day. It no longer seems racist at that point. I feel like I’m talking to a bunch of academics that don’t get outside and deal with real people. Much like the Confederate Flag. Meanings evolve over time. That was the view I expressed. I said the comparison to the KKK hat was not entirely accurate because where hasn’t the KKK hat been worn that wasn’t in an attempt to intimidate or terrorize? Now if that makes me a racist, treasonous, asshole, dickhead, douche, turdburglar I’d hate to see what these clowns would do if they ran into someone who really is a racist asshole. I have a feeling they’d shit themselves and hide behind their partner. ---
**Author:** ![BrightNShiny](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@BrightNShiny](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrightNShiny)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2015, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-white-hood-heritage-not-hate/723050/387 "2015-06-24T19:04:53Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > I have minimized nothing. Hey, dipshit. When I point out to you and explain to you that you’ve minimized something, and I explain to you exactly how you’ve done it, simply stating that you haven’t done it isn’t actually a counter argument. > [@](#): > > I have told you and others multiple time that so stick your faux outrage up your ass, if there’s room. And again we have another attempt at minimization. What a vile scumbag you are. There’s nothing “faux” about being outraged over violence and terrorism. > [@](#): > > Am I doing pit talk right? I’m just not an arrogant twat who self righteously and hypocritically tells someone else what they mean. Strawman and liar? See, I actually quoted one of your strawmen and asked you to cite a post in this thread to back up your statement. And I pointed out that if the statement was aimed at me, it was a lie (and I think it’s pretty clear that the statement was aimed at me). So far, you’ve refused to recant your lie. You’ve completely ignored it. > [@](#): > > When one is met with insults such as you and dork have used during your diatribes you don’t deserve respect in return. Dork was the one who ruined the tone of this thread to begin with. And “tone policing”? More hypocrisy from the asshole brigade I see. Waaaah. You’ve been insulting people since you got into this thread. You are the leader of the asshole brigade, you vile piece of crap. > [@](#): > > Realize this though. I’m actually sympathetic and a proponent to treating everyone as individuals. But you all attacking me for not having the orthodoxy’s proscribed amount of outrage and giving people the benefit of the doubt doesn’t gain you allies. More strawmen! > [@](#): > > I’m probably not the first person who has joined to participate in Great Debates and have decided it’s a self righteous Echo chamber full of those with no people skills. Honestly that’s what you people remind me of. People who can’t relate to real people. Can’t hold a job with real people probably. Oh, is this the civility you claim you want? Why is it that when you sling insults, it’s perfectly okay, but when others do it, it’s horrible? Oh, because you’re self-righteous, hypocritical asshole. > [@](#): > > Anyways enjoy your “intellectual” echo chamber and juvenile cess pool. You slimey people aren’t worth any more time in a sub forum that is incompetently moderated. You mean you’re going to stop posting your vile crap and lies and strawmen? You’re going to stop posting your immoral stupidity for all to see? This will be a great improvement to the board. You are indeed a terrible person. ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2015, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-white-hood-heritage-not-hate/723050/388 "2015-06-24T19:11:45Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > I’d hate to see what these clowns would do if they ran into someone who really is a racist asshole. I have a feeling they’d shit themselves and hide behind their partner. Well if I thought a crime was imminent, I’d call the cops and let them handle it. Otherwise, I’d adjust my response according to the situation. Pending solid argument, I accept LHoD’s taxonomy. Pretty useful, really. Anybody who waves the battle flag of an insurrectionist movement whose avowed purpose was the maintenance and international expansion of slavery is either a bigot, ignorant, in deep denial or is indifferent that their neighbors might have an issue with such advocacy as well as the people who would do such a thing. Newsflash: flying a flag is a public act. But hey, I’m a Northerner albeit with a few slave holding Southern ancestors. Not my prime concern. You guys can do what you want and I will draw reasonable conclusions. It works both ways of course. When Mississippi, Alabama and South Caroline decide simultaneously to stop venerating Bond villains I take notice. Stop acting comical and I will no longer laugh at you. Given that change is hard, I even extend respect. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2015, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-white-hood-heritage-not-hate/723050/389 "2015-06-24T19:57:55Z")
> [@Measure\_for\_Measure](#): > > Well if I thought a crime was imminent, I’d call the cops and let them handle it. Otherwise, I’d adjust my response according to the situation. > > Pending solid argument, I accept LHoD’s taxonomy. Pretty useful, really. Anybody who waves the battle flag of an insurrectionist movement whose avowed purpose was the maintenance and international expansion of slavery is either a bigot, ignorant, in deep denial or is indifferent that their neighbors might have an issue with such advocacy as well as the people who would do such a thing. Newsflash: flying a flag is a public act. > > But hey, I’m a Northerner albeit with a few slave holding Southern ancestors. Not my prime concern. You guys can do what you want and I will draw reasonable conclusions. > > It works both ways of course. When Mississippi, Alabama and South Caroline decide simultaneously to stop venerating Bond villains I take notice. Stop acting comical and I will no longer laugh at you. Given that change is hard, I even extend respect. For the most part Dork is indeed correct at least with the categories he has listed. He conveniently leaves out the people which the flag is part of their regional background and look at past historical events as stuff that is in the past. Sometimes the past isn’t as important to others as one would wish it was. I still find it dismaying how easy certain posters are triggered. I pity the professors of our time if they are an indication of how people are nowadays. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2015, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-white-hood-heritage-not-hate/723050/390 "2015-06-24T20:11:18Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > He conveniently leaves out the people which the flag is part of their regional background and look at past historical events as stuff that is in the past. No, that’s well-covered by the “indifferent to others” category AKA assholes. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2015, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-white-hood-heritage-not-hate/723050/391 "2015-06-24T20:18:01Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > No, that’s well-covered by the “indifferent to others” category AKA assholes. I suppose much like the Confederate Flag, the word “asshole” can mean whatever the user wishes it to mean. Don’t be surprised if people take offense and consider you the “asshole.” And that how progress is made! ---
**Author:** ![Smartass](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/4491bb/32.png) [@Smartass](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smartass)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2015, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-white-hood-heritage-not-hate/723050/392 "2015-06-24T21:12:57Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > Smartass: the desire to use a racist symbol, even out of rebellion, is still racist. Let say some black person calls me racist. I still don’t get to call them a “nigger.” I may wish to rebel, but I still don’t get to do that. > > And the fact that anyone wants to do so, despite knowing the fact that it is such a gross offense to black people, shows racism. One of those who they are saying “fuck you” to are black people as a whole. And that’s wrong. Conceptually, what you’re saying is correct. However, the problem is the declaring of something as a racist symbol. Even though I get where you’re coming from and generally agree, the fact remains that there are a southerners who don’t see it simply a racist symbol. And yes, that suggests some sensitivity issues, but there’s no shortage of those anywhere. So, to propose an alternate example of what I mean, suppose that people decide to where shirts that say things like “I can’t breathe” or “Black lives matter.” A bunch of people who aren’t wearing those shirts can get together and declare that the shirts are anti-law-enforcement or pro-anarchy or some other such thing. However, the fact remains the listener does not have de facto authority to declare what the speaker is trying to say. Of course, the listener can certainly opine that the speaker has chosen a bad way to deliver a message. -VM ---
**Author:** ![Smartass](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/4491bb/32.png) [@Smartass](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smartass)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2015, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-white-hood-heritage-not-hate/723050/393 "2015-06-24T21:15:10Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Indeed. The thread was started by a Southerner who doesn’t think he’s particularly racist or ignorant. I’m a southerner who does get pretty pissed off when folks from outside the region make sweeping declarations about the South. > > But I also think it’s complete bullshit to treat any criticism of any aspect of Southern culture as an attack on all Southerners. It comes across as an attempt to destroy the conversation. While I may not express it clearly in every case, I think it should be clear that my intent was to address the criticism of “every southerner who sports a rebel flag”, not southerners at large. -VM ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2015, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-white-hood-heritage-not-hate/723050/394 "2015-06-24T21:26:31Z")
> [@Smartass](#): > > While I may not express it clearly in every case, I think it should be clear that my intent was to address the criticism of “every southerner who sports a rebel flag”, not southerners at large. > > -VM I think there are points that you have failed to adequately address. The rebel flag had largely disappeared from prominence after the Civil War until it was resurrected in the middle of the 20th century to serve as a symbol of opposition to racial integration and Civil Rights. It’s entirely reasonable for black Americans (including black Southerners, obviously) to view the symbol in this light – as a symbol of oppression. I believe that to choose to display this flag where black people might see it while being aware of this reality is an extremely rude, obnoxious, and un-neighborly – akin to displaying the swastika where Jews might see it. If you see it differently, how is it different than displaying the swastika (for supposed German pride, for example)? Do you think it’s unreasonable for black people to view the flag as a symbol of racial oppression? If not, then isn’t it very un-neighborly (and un-Southern, in fact!) to display this symbol where black people might see it, regardless of how one feels about it personally? ---
**Author:** ![Smartass](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/4491bb/32.png) [@Smartass](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smartass)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2015, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-white-hood-heritage-not-hate/723050/395 "2015-06-24T21:29:59Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > Here’s what I think…How’s that grab you, coming from someone who grew up in the South? A little heavy-handed, I suppose. And a little surprising–I generally associate bitterness over the Civil War with southerners. -VM ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2015, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-white-hood-heritage-not-hate/723050/396 "2015-06-24T21:37:12Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > I think there are points that you have failed to adequately address. The rebel flag had largely disappeared from prominence after the Civil War until it was resurrected in the middle of the 20th century to serve as a symbol of opposition to racial integration and Civil Rights. It’s entirely reasonable for black Americans (including black Southerners, obviously) to view the symbol in this light – as a symbol of oppression. I believe that to choose to display this flag where black people might see it while being aware of this reality is an extremely rude, obnoxious, and un-neighborly – akin to displaying the swastika where Jews might see it. > > If you see it differently, how is it different than displaying the swastika (for supposed German pride, for example)? Do you think it’s unreasonable for black people to view the flag as a symbol of racial oppression? If not, then isn’t it very un-neighborly (and un-Southern, in fact!) to display this symbol where black people might see it, regardless of how one feels about it personally? I grew up in the South, and until recently, past year or so I was unaware of the flag’s resurrection in the 60s. To me it’s always been a “Southern thing.” Even prior to that, since I was pro Union anyways in the sense that not only do I think secession is an entirely dangerous and impractical event, I also thought that fighting a war to preserve and spread slavery is unjust, I never wore the flag anyways on apparel aside from incidentally. But knowing Southerners since I grew up in the deep South, I knew MANY who did have and do display the flag and knowing these people personally I can say the characterizations are false in general. Speaking of which, I don’t know a single person who has a Klan hood. At least that I know of. So if that doesn’t tell one the difference between the two and why they should be treated differently nothing will. I do think the current atmosphere is a bit hysterical concerning the flag and I would rather efforts be made to address the real issues behind terror and criminality, instead of trying to score political points over cloth. Or the Jefferson Memorial. [http://www.thefederalistpapers.org/us/cnn-thinks-its-time-to-take-down-jefferson-memorial](http://www.thefederalistpapers.org/us/cnn-thinks-its-time-to-take-down-jefferson-memorial) ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2015, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-white-hood-heritage-not-hate/723050/397 "2015-06-24T21:46:26Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > I do think the current atmosphere is a bit hysterical concerning the flag and I would rather efforts be made to address the real issues behind terror and criminality, instead of trying to score political points over cloth. I think it’s way overdue. That symbols which educated people understand were resurrected from irrelevance to oppose racial equality were promoted on state and local government properties for so long is a good indication, in my view, that there remains either a significant lack of understanding of how long white supremacy ruled in the South (and elsewhere), or a lack of concern over this fact. This is just a relatively small but very necessary step, in my view, in what will undoubtedly be a long process of educating Southerners (and others) of the immense (and immensely negative) role that white supremacy played in our history, up to and beyond the late 20th century. ---
**Author:** ![Smartass](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/4491bb/32.png) [@Smartass](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smartass)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2015, 10:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-white-hood-heritage-not-hate/723050/398 "2015-06-24T22:21:48Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Any comparison of the oppression of black people in the old South (or the old North, for that matter) to any supposed oppression of the South (and I assume you mean “Southern white people” here) by the North following the Civil War is on the verge of offensive. There is no comparison here. It wasn’t intended to be a comparison of black oppression with southern oppression. The point is that black oppression was not (and still is not) limited to the South. However, the south gets the lionshare of derision for it. There seems to be an expectation that southerners “own” the ugly history toward blacks in the south, but less expectation that all of America own other ugly parts of our history, including slavery and racism in the north. At least, that’s the way a lot of southerners feel. And a certain number of them see waving their flag as a way pointing out hypocrisy. You don’t have to agree with that position or believe that they’re right, but the fact remains that there’s more going on here than just a proclamation of racism, and ignoring that fact ensures that there CAN be no meaningful discussion beyond trading insults. > [@iiandyiiii](#): > > As to the flag itself, in this Southern (born in Atlanta, raised in Louisiana and Arkansas, and currently residing in Virginia) veteran’s opinion, flying the Confederate flag where black people might see it is as rude, obnoxious, and un-neighborly …with you so far… > [@iiandyiiii](#): > > as flying the swastika for supposed Germanic pride where Jews might see it. You left me behind here. > [@iiandyiiii](#): > > I’ll put aside any accusations of racism against flag wavers for now – it’s just incredibly rude, obnoxious, and un-neighborly. In which case, we’re in agreement. -VM ---
**Author:** ![Smartass](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/4491bb/32.png) [@Smartass](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smartass)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2015, 10:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-white-hood-heritage-not-hate/723050/399 "2015-06-24T22:27:20Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > [This cartoon](http://www.koreatimes.co.kr/www/news/opinon/2015/06/195_181510.html) nicely sums up what “heritage” the confederate flag represents. I find that cartoon in complete agreement with some of the points I’ve been trying to make. -VM ---
**Author:** ![Smartass](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/4491bb/32.png) [@Smartass](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smartass)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2015, 10:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-white-hood-heritage-not-hate/723050/400 "2015-06-24T22:36:57Z")
> [@Measure\_for\_Measure](#): > > Stop acting comical and I will no longer laugh at you. Actually, I think the “laughing at” approach would work MUCH better with most southerners than the insults and vitriol that I’ve seen in this thread. Because, if you insult us, it just makes us want revenge. But EVERYONE hates being laughed at. If we could find a good way to visibly laugh at the silly flag in South Carolina and the ridiculous rules about flying it, I think you’d be far more likely to see it quietly disappear. -VM [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-white-hood-heritage-not-hate/723050.md?page=19) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-white-hood-heritage-not-hate/723050.md?page=21)