# The white hood: heritage, not hate! **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [June 21, 2015, 2:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-white-hood-heritage-not-hate/723050 "2015-06-21T02:50:17Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 25
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2015, 11:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-white-hood-heritage-not-hate/723050/481 "2015-06-26T11:49:29Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > 27% of black South Carolinians supported flying the Confederate flag on state grounds, when asked, in a poll this year. When you show me a poll where 27% of Jews (you know what, show me 5%) support flying a Nazi flag anywhere, then your comparison would be somewhat valid. It’s somewhat valid now (actually, it’s a lot more than “somewhat”). If the polls lined up perfectly, then it might be a perfect and flawless comparison. As it is, the vast majority of black people in America see the Confederate flag as a symbol of white supremacism and racist hatred, and the vast majority of Jews see the swastika as a symbol of anti-Semitism and anti-Jewish violence. The vast-majority-percentages might differ somewhat from state-to-state (and country to country), but they’re both vast majorities based on the numbers I’ve seen. And both of those beliefs are entirely reasonable based on the history of the use of those symbols. The Confederate flag was returned to prominence as a symbol of resistance to integration and Civil Rights for black people. Flying it is a sign that you either don’t know about how the vast majority of black people see it or don’t care (or that you fly it to inflame). Ignorance or assholishness or overt racism. Just like flying the swastika. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2015, 11:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-white-hood-heritage-not-hate/723050/482 "2015-06-26T11:51:48Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > **LHoD** : You do know a couple of posters are trolling you, don’t you? Sigh. I fall for them every time. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2015, 2:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-white-hood-heritage-not-hate/723050/483 "2015-06-26T14:00:12Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > It’s somewhat valid now (actually, it’s a lot more than “somewhat”). If the polls lined up perfectly, then it might be a perfect and flawless comparison. As it is, the vast majority of black people in America see the Confederate flag as a symbol of white supremacism and racist hatred, and the vast majority of Jews see the swastika as a symbol of anti-Semitism and anti-Jewish violence. The vast-majority-percentages might differ somewhat from state-to-state (and country to country), but they’re both vast majorities based on the numbers I’ve seen. A significant minority of black South Carolinians support flying the Confederate flag. NO significant minority of Jews support flying the Nazi flag. That’s a huge difference between the two. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2015, 2:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-white-hood-heritage-not-hate/723050/484 "2015-06-26T14:18:24Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > A significant minority of black South Carolinians support flying the Confederate flag. NO significant minority of Jews support flying the Nazi flag. That’s a huge difference between the two. No significant minority of Jews live in a place where the Nazi flag is flown from a government building, so no conclusions can be drawn from this disparity. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2015, 2:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-white-hood-heritage-not-hate/723050/485 "2015-06-26T14:21:16Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > A significant minority of black South Carolinians support flying the Confederate flag. NO significant minority of Jews support flying the Nazi flag. That’s a huge difference between the two. That’s not a “huge difference”, and that’s in the past anyway. Further, like **LHOD** says, no significant minority of Jews currently live somewhere in which the swastika flies (or flew recently) from government buildings. Further, how would it change things if some minority of Jews somewhere decided they were okay with the swastika? Would that make it a morally acceptable thing to fly the swastika? It certainly wouldn’t to me… would it to you? ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2015, 2:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-white-hood-heritage-not-hate/723050/486 "2015-06-26T14:42:00Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Further, how would it change things if some minority of Jews somewhere decided they were okay with the swastika? Would that make it a morally acceptable thing to fly the swastika? It certainly wouldn’t to me… would it to you? It would indicate to me that a huge number of Jews (seriously, 200,000 blacks just in South Carolina) think that there are positive qualities in the flag, and not racism and genocide. And since Jews would be the “lightning rod” in that case, I’d be forced to consider that as well. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2015, 2:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-white-hood-heritage-not-hate/723050/487 "2015-06-26T14:44:20Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > It would indicate to me that a huge number of Jews (seriously, 200,000 blacks just in South Carolina) think that there are positive qualities in the flag, and not racism and genocide. And since Jews would be the “lightning rod” in that case, I’d be forced to consider that as well. That doesn’t matter to me. I don’t care whether there are or are not “positive qualities” in the flag (I’m not even sure what this means), and I’m well aware that many or even most who display the Confederate flag are not in favor of slavery or white supremacy. What matters to me is that huge numbers of people, including the vast majority of the “lighting rods” (in this case), find the display of this symbol offensive for legitimate and entirely reasonable reasons, and that’s reason enough to not fly it on government grounds, and reason enough to be critical of any individuals who choose to fly it personally. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2015, 2:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-white-hood-heritage-not-hate/723050/488 "2015-06-26T14:46:22Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > That doesn’t matter to me. Of course it doesn’t. Your mind is firmly snapped shut on this matter. But the fact that a big minority of “lightning rods” support the flag is the difference (that you refuse to see). ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2015, 2:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-white-hood-heritage-not-hate/723050/489 "2015-06-26T14:48:00Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Of course it doesn’t. Your mind is firmly snapped shut on this matter. Huh? Which of my points about the Confederate flag do you disagree with? ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2015, 2:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-white-hood-heritage-not-hate/723050/490 "2015-06-26T14:49:10Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Huh? Which of my points about the Confederate flag do you disagree with? Your comparison of flying it to flying the Nazi swastika, for one. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2015, 2:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-white-hood-heritage-not-hate/723050/491 "2015-06-26T14:49:39Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > But the fact that a big minority of “lightning rods” support the flag is the difference (that you refuse to see). It might be a difference, it’s just not a difference that affects my view of the Confederate flag. And it’s not a “big minority”. And being mildly in favor of not removing the flag in the past is not “support” for the flag. So you continue to be wrong on multiple counts. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2015, 2:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-white-hood-heritage-not-hate/723050/492 "2015-06-26T14:50:32Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > It might be a difference, it’s just not a difference that affects my view of the Confederate flag. As I said, mind snapped shut. > [@](#): > > And it’s not a “big minority”. Hundreds of thousands is a “big minority”. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2015, 2:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-white-hood-heritage-not-hate/723050/493 "2015-06-26T14:51:05Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Your comparison of flying it to flying the Nazi swastika, for one. Just in South Carolina, or everywhere? If black people in a different state show ~100% support for removing the flag, then do you think it’s comparable in that state? ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2015, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-white-hood-heritage-not-hate/723050/494 "2015-06-26T14:52:29Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Just in South Carolina, or everywhere? If black people in a different state show 100% support for removing the flag, then do you think it’s comparable in that state? Sure. Can you show me such a state? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2015, 2:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-white-hood-heritage-not-hate/723050/495 "2015-06-26T14:53:09Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > As I said, mind snapped shut. ??? Are you a mind reader? Are you the arbiter of open-minds? What’s the point of this kind of assertion? Do you believe that your mind is open but anyone who disagrees has a “mind snapped shut”? If it’s possible to disagree with you without a “mind snapped shut”, then what would such a disagreement look like? > [@](#): > > Hundreds of thousands is a “big minority”. Not compared to the many millions in the majority. Further, they don’t necessarily “support the flag” – they just, at the time the poll was taken in the past, may not have strongly supported its removal. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2015, 2:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-white-hood-heritage-not-hate/723050/496 "2015-06-26T14:58:11Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Not compared to the many millions in the majority. 17% of 1.5M blacks in South Carolina is about 250,000. So - not “many millions”, and definitely a big minority. > [@](#): > > Further, they don’t necessarily “support the flag” – they just, at the time the poll was taken in the past, may not have strongly supported its removal. The 17% is not “in the past” - and they did not support the removal at all. Not “strongly” and not “weakly”. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2015, 3:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-white-hood-heritage-not-hate/723050/497 "2015-06-26T15:00:25Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Not compared to the many millions in the majority. Further, they don’t necessarily “support the flag” – they just, at the time the poll was taken in the past, may not have strongly supported its removal. This is key. Their reasons for not supporting flag removal are not explored by the poll. Perhaps all 17% of them think it’s a distraction issue, and that the revolting racist flag should not be removed because it’ll give cover to racist motherfuckers in SC to say, “There! See, we did something!” and they don’t want to those racist motherfuckers to have an excuse for not doing more. We don’t know. Concluding that they’re okay with the flag is a dumb thing to do. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2015, 3:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-white-hood-heritage-not-hate/723050/498 "2015-06-26T15:02:37Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > 17% of 1.5M blacks in South Carolina is about 250,000. So - not “many millions”, and definitely a big minority. > The 17% is not “in the past” - and they did not support the removal at all. Not “strongly” and not “weakly”. Still not a “big minority”, and still not relevant. I trust black people and not you when it comes to possible symbols of racism against black people. Not 5%, not 17%, not 27%, but most black people – when most black people say something about racism against black people in America, they’ve always been right, and I go with their opinion. Not the minority, and not the opinion of non-black people (when it comes to racism against black people), but most black people together. So I’ll stick with the opinion of most black people about anti-black racism, just like I stick with the opinion of most Jews about anti-Semitism, and most women about misogyny, and most gays about homophobia, etc. I’ll stick with them about the Confederate flag, and the swastika, and more. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2015, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-white-hood-heritage-not-hate/723050/499 "2015-06-26T15:29:13Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > First, that poll was from last year–well before momentum was building. Second, it was in a state where the confederate flag is already flying. An equivalent poll would have to be from a region where the Swastika flag is currently flying. Nice try, though. Why wouldn’t you want to look to last year, before the shooting? Why would you want to make the most of emotionalism and the increase of manufactured outrage? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2015, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-white-hood-heritage-not-hate/723050/500 "2015-06-26T15:33:35Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Why wouldn’t you want to look to last year, before the shooting? That wouldn’t tell us about how people feel in the present, including after a major event. > [@](#): > > Why would you want to make the most of emotionalism and the increase of manufactured outrage? Emotional responses are sometimes good and positive, and I see no reason why this one isn’t. I’m not aware of any significant amount of “manufactured outrage”, since most of the opposition to the display of the flag has been there all along. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-white-hood-heritage-not-hate/723050.md?page=24) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-white-hood-heritage-not-hate/723050.md?page=26)