# The white hood: heritage, not hate! **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [June 21, 2015, 2:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-white-hood-heritage-not-hate/723050 "2015-06-21T02:50:17Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 27
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2015, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-white-hood-heritage-not-hate/723050/521 "2015-06-26T18:15:20Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Perhaps [not so obvious](https://www.thefire.org/cases/george-washington-university-jewish-student-suspended-for-displaying-souvenir-indian-swastika/). One, right? Not 5%. Not 1%. One. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2015, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-white-hood-heritage-not-hate/723050/522 "2015-06-26T18:16:21Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > You’ve got to be one of the stupidest people alive to look at a poll where 73% of people want something, and you seriously argue that the 17% who don’t want something prove that the 73% are wrong. If you’re moronic enough to miss the point that I posted numerous times, I can’t help you. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2015, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-white-hood-heritage-not-hate/723050/523 "2015-06-26T18:17:56Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > One, right? Not 5%. Not 1%. One. You can’t see because your mind is snapped shut. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2015, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-white-hood-heritage-not-hate/723050/524 "2015-06-26T18:21:59Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > One, right? Not 5%. Not 1%. One. Clearly, the phenomenon is not unknown. Maybe someone _should_ be polling this. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2015, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-white-hood-heritage-not-hate/723050/525 "2015-06-26T18:22:09Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > If you’re moronic enough to miss the point that I posted numerous times, I can’t help you. You and your points are stupid. Really, really stupid. Having a debate with you is like interacting with a pigeon who shits all over everything and then struts around like he owns the place. Plus, the pigeon is probably more interesting than you. ---
**Author:** ![MEBuckner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mebuckner/32/2896_2.png) [@MEBuckner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MEBuckner)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2015, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-white-hood-heritage-not-hate/723050/526 "2015-06-26T18:57:13Z")
> [@Measure\_for\_Measure](#): > > If you want to say 17% is significant (with unreported error bars - the (sub)sample size of blacks was presumably pretty low) knock yourself out. My rule of thumb though is that 20% of the public will report all manner of bizarre stuff while being polled on the telephone as they cook dinner. > > 9% believe fluoride is dangerous. 14% believe the CIA developed crack. 13% think Obama is the Anti-Christ (or was it Hillary?). 15% believe the government controls minds with TV (well, I guess they have a point). And 4% believe lizard people control politics. (Ditto.) > > UFO crashed in Roswell? 21%. Medical industry invents diseases? 15%. Bigfoot? 14%. > > You like raw numbers? 66 million think aliens landed in Roswell in 1948. But that’s a pretty silly way of presenting things. Troll harder Terr. [http://www.thewire.com/national/2013/04/12-million-americans-believe-lizard-people-run-our-country/63799/](http://www.thewire.com/national/2013/04/12-million-americans-believe-lizard-people-run-our-country/63799/) Yep. “Black people who support the Confederate flag!” are just the latest example of the [27% Crazification Factor](http://kfmonkey.blogspot.com/2005/10/lunch-discussions-145-crazification.html). (In fact, “black South Carolinians” are evidently significantly less batshit crazy than “Illinois state senate voters in 2004”, 17% to 27%.) ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2015, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-white-hood-heritage-not-hate/723050/527 "2015-06-26T20:13:27Z")
> [@MEBuckner](#): > > Yep. “Black people who support the Confederate flag!” are just the latest example of the [27% Crazification Factor](http://kfmonkey.blogspot.com/2005/10/lunch-discussions-145-crazification.html). (In fact, “black South Carolinians” are evidently significantly less batshit crazy than “Illinois state senate voters in 2004”, 17% to 27%.) And as LHoD pointed out on the previous page, this isn’t black support or even South Carolinan black support. It addresses whether they want to be bothered with the hassle of taking the flag down from the capital. Most say yea. A few say meh. If you want to measure actual black support for the flag representing the so-called Confederate states of America, you will have to launch another poll. Also, thanks for that citation MEBuckner. It’s what I was looking for. 27% is a reasonable threshold. ---
**Author:** ![Smartass](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/4491bb/32.png) [@Smartass](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smartass)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2015, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-white-hood-heritage-not-hate/723050/528 "2015-06-26T20:47:57Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > I’m not disavowing that. “You’re an asshole” can mean either “you are in this particular case being an asshole” or “you’re irredeemably and forevermore in all ways an asshole.” I clarified later that I meant the former, where apparently you thought I meant the latter. But I think that in context it should have been clear that I meant the former… When I find that what I’ve said has been misinterpreted (and it doesn’t seem to be a deliberate misinterpretation), rather than just assume my listener was crazy, I usually try to do better next time. Not that this makes me saint, but I DO feel it helps me to be a better communicator over time. In this particular case, you clearly demonstrated that you know HOW to communicate better–that is, in a way that I would be much less likely to misinterpret your intent–but since it’s due to my craziness, you shouldn’t fee any obligation to. So, I guess itit was only a learning opportunity for one of us. I think that is a shame. -VM ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2015, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-white-hood-heritage-not-hate/723050/529 "2015-06-26T20:56:34Z")
> [@Measure\_for\_Measure](#): > > And as LHoD pointed out on the previous page, this isn’t black support or even South Carolinan black support. It addresses whether they want to be bothered with the hassle of taking the flag down from the capital. Most say yea. A few say meh. That’s your interpretation. I think you’re substituting wishful thinking for reality. ---
**Author:** ![Smartass](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/4491bb/32.png) [@Smartass](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smartass)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2015, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-white-hood-heritage-not-hate/723050/530 "2015-06-26T21:05:59Z")
> [@Measure\_for\_Measure](#): > > Also, thanks for that citation MEBuckner. It’s what I was looking for. 27% is a reasonable threshold. As I’ve scanned this back-and-forth, this is the part that I’ve been wondering about…people are arguing over how big the minority IS, but what is the relevant threshold? That is to say, how big of a minority needs to be indifferent to the flag to make it okay that the majority _are_ offended? How much indifference outweighs how much outrage? I mean, the fact that everyone is talking about the number suggests that such a threshold might exist (a “big minority”?)…but I’m not sure that it does. [And to be clear (and to distinguish this from the whole “anyone who flies the confederate flag is an asshole” issue), I’m talking about flags on public property (private citizens theoretically have a right to be offensive). I’ve said that there are people who fly the flag who aren’t doing it for the purpose of offending black people; I’ve been very careful NOT to say that this means what they’re doing is okay, because I don’t think it is. I think I’ve demonstrated in my life about as well as anyone can that you can be offensive without really _meaning_ to…] -VM ---
**Author:** ![Smartass](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/4491bb/32.png) [@Smartass](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smartass)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2015, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-white-hood-heritage-not-hate/723050/531 "2015-06-26T21:13:17Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > I think you’re substituting wishful thinking for reality. What is reality? Are you suggesting that 27% of black people in South Carolina _support_ flying the confederate flag on public property? If not, what exactly ARE you suggesting is reality? Unless you WANT this debate to just be “You’re a dick,” “No, YOU’RE a dick” then it’s not enough to say, “You’ve guessed wrong.” Share what you think is the right guess. Maybe something will come of it…and if not, well, it doesn’t look this conversation was going anywhere anyway. -VM ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2015, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-white-hood-heritage-not-hate/723050/532 "2015-06-26T21:21:59Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Okay, I’ll bite. What’s the difference between KKK robes and the confederate flag? See Post #282. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2015, 9:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-white-hood-heritage-not-hate/723050/533 "2015-06-26T21:44:48Z")
> [@Smartass](#): > > What is reality? Are you suggesting that 27% of black people in South Carolina _support_ flying the confederate flag on public property? If not, what exactly ARE you suggesting is reality? I am suggesting that according to that [poll I referenced before](http://www.winthrop.edu/uploadedFiles/wupoll/November2014WinthropPollResultsAndMethodology.pdf) (from about half a year ago) 14.5% SC blacks “strongly feel it [the Confederate flag] SHOULD continue to fly” 12.8% SC blacks “somewhat feel it SHOULD continue to fly” which adds up to 27% or so. Now - I would say that someone that says that the flag SHOULD continue to fly (especially someone who feels it STRONGLY, but even “somewhat” still works, and especially with the lengthy preamble\* to the question explaining it in detail) supports it flying. Trying to interpret that answer in another way is what I called wishful thinking. - Preamble to the question: "From the year 1962 until the year 2000, the Confederate Flag flew above the dome over the South Carolina State House, where the South Carolina Legislature meets. In the year 2000, it was taken down from the dome, but still flies on the State House grounds next to a monument to South Carolina’s Confederate dead. Do you think the Confederate Flag should or should not continue to be flown on the grounds of the South Carolina State House?" As for why those 27% would support that flag flying - the poll didn’t go into reasons, but I would suspect, just like with most whites, that it is the strong identification with the South, the idea that the Confederate flag is the symbol of the South (and not “racism”), and a feeling of pride in being a Southerner, as well as some antagonism against the North, whether justified or not. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2015, 9:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-white-hood-heritage-not-hate/723050/534 "2015-06-26T21:55:27Z")
To add to my post: from the same poll, 13% of SC blacks have positive feelings toward the Confederate flag. 21.6% are neutral. I presume that that 27% that support it flying on state grounds include that 13%, so the other 14% come from the neutrals. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2015, 10:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-white-hood-heritage-not-hate/723050/535 "2015-06-26T22:09:00Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > See Post #282. That doesn’t answer my question, unless you’re actually arguing that the flag is a symbol of “southern hospitality.” ---
**Author:** ![Smartass](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/4491bb/32.png) [@Smartass](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smartass)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2015, 10:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-white-hood-heritage-not-hate/723050/536 "2015-06-26T22:18:38Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Now - I would say that someone that says that the flag SHOULD continue to fly (especially someone who feels it STRONGLY, but even “somewhat” still works, and especially with the lengthy preamble\* to the question explaining it in detail) supports it flying. Trying to interpret that answer in another way is what I called wishful thinking. Alright, I’ll leave it to others to decide whether they want to debate your interpretation of the poll…I’m interested in understanding the playing field. Where would you say the lines should be drawn? For instance, if 27% support the flag and 27% are deeply offended by it, what’s the right decision (leave it up or take it down)? That is to say, how much “support” makes it okay to ignore the feelings of how many who are offended? And I’m specifically interested in where you think the right place to draw the line is, because it SOUNDS like you’re saying that if 27% support it, then it doesn’t matter how the rest feel. _Is_ that what you’re saying? If not, how are you saying that we should weigh the support of x% against the “being offended” of y%? -VM ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2015, 10:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-white-hood-heritage-not-hate/723050/537 "2015-06-26T22:22:39Z")
> [@Smartass](#): > > Alright, I’ll leave it to others to decide whether they want to debate your interpretation of the poll…I’m interested in understanding the playing field. > > Where would you say the lines should be drawn? For instance, if 27% support the flag and 27% are deeply offended by it, what’s the right decision (leave it up or take it down)? That is to say, how much “support” makes it okay to ignore the feelings of how many who are offended? I say it takes 50%+1 of the total populace support to put it up. Or 50% of the total populace + 1 to take it down. (And that as reflected in the legislature, so it is not precise, obviously). And for those who are offended either way - there is no right not to be offended. But that was not my point when I was pointing out the 27%. Once again (repeating for the Nth time) I gave that poll as support that it is not automatic that “Confederate flag = racism”, neither in general population nor among blacks. ---
**Author:** ![BlankSlate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/blankslate/32/80_2.png) [@BlankSlate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BlankSlate)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2015, 10:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-white-hood-heritage-not-hate/723050/538 "2015-06-26T22:41:04Z")
It is interesting that **Terr** has absolute confidence in this one poll that supposedly (who knows? It was over the phone) queried 220 black, South Carolina residents. That poll is gospel. And yet, in a thread last month about the UK general election, he had this to say about pollsters: > [@UK General Election May 2015 (Population Share Version)](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uk-general-election-may-2015-population-share-version/716612/675): > > It’s interesting. Pollsters are getting it wrong, and not just somewhat wrong, but spectacularly wrong, everywhere. US, UK, Israel - the three last elections the pollsters were off way outside their margins. > > If they don’t manage to get ahead of this somehow and find a way to poll close to the real results, they are risking of losing credibility completely and no one will pay them anymore. > > On the other hand, it seems that the gambling sites have been a lot more accurate than the pollsters in predicting the final results, in all three of these elections. Maybe that’s the wave of the future… ---
**Author:** ![Smartass](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/4491bb/32.png) [@Smartass](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smartass)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2015, 10:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-white-hood-heritage-not-hate/723050/539 "2015-06-26T22:41:23Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > I say it takes 50%+1 of the total populace support to put it up. Or 50% of the total populace + 1 to take it down. (And that as reflected in the legislature, so it is not precise, obviously). And for those who are offended either way - there is no right not to be offended. This is interesting. So, to be clear, you don’t think there should be a greater burden to not be offensive (particularly this KIND of offensive) for government actions than for private citizens? Because this SOUNDS more like the way a person might rationalize decisions just for themselves. > [@Terr](#): > > But that was not my point when I was pointing out the 27%. Once again (repeating for the Nth time) I gave that poll as support that it is not automatic that “Confederate flag = racism”, neither in general population nor among blacks. I don’t really think that’s a case that needed to be argued. Most of the posters seem to think that “more than 50% (and possibly less) of black people are deeply offended by the flag” would reach the threshold that it should come down. And I don’t think this is based on violating a “right not to be offended” so much as a desire for government not to have a callous attitude toward its citizens. If it’s a person flying the flag, I think an argument of “my right to be offensive” vs “your right to not be offended” is easier to make, but I think it’s a lot harder to speak of “the government’s right to be offensive to its citizens.” I suspect most people would say the government has duties to perform, not rights to exercise. What are your thoughts? -VM ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2015, 10:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-white-hood-heritage-not-hate/723050/540 "2015-06-26T22:43:29Z")
> [@BlankSlate](#): > > It is interesting that **Terr** has absolute confidence in this one poll that supposedly (who knows? It was over the phone) queried 220 black, South Carolina residents. That poll is gospel. And yet, in a thread last month about the UK general election, he had this to say about pollsters: This is not an election poll. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-white-hood-heritage-not-hate/723050.md?page=26) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-white-hood-heritage-not-hate/723050.md?page=28)