# The white hood: heritage, not hate! **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [June 21, 2015, 2:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-white-hood-heritage-not-hate/723050 "2015-06-21T02:50:17Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 29
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2015, 12:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-white-hood-heritage-not-hate/723050/561 "2015-06-27T00:35:07Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > Since you mention Russia, do you think the same about the tearing down of Stalin and Lenin statues after the fall of Communism? Was it all a silly, meaningless action that distracted from the tasks of setting up a free society? Yes, it was. Stupid activity. Hell, Helsinki has statues of Lenin. So does India. Who cares? Does a statue of Lenin make the country’s turn (or return) to be communist? > [@](#): > > Nobody thinks removing the Confederate flag will end racism, but symbols do matter and in particular removing the Confederate flag from public property shows that at the very least we will stop the whitewashing of history. Stupidity squared. No one is “whitewashing” history. History’s intensity fades. The “racism” of the symbol fades. Hell, even atrocities fade. That’s just a simple fact. Trying to remove the Confederate flag or rename army bases etc. just reminds me of when during Stalin times people were retouched/removed from historical photographs when they fell out of favor/were executed, and yearly people who had encyclopedias would receive a packet of pages with instructions of which pages in their encyclopedias to add, remove, or replace. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2015, 12:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-white-hood-heritage-not-hate/723050/562 "2015-06-27T00:37:17Z")
> [@Leaper](#): > > I’m still wondering why it’s Terr who gets to decide that the flag’s racist connotations have been “hugely diluted.” Because you don’t get 27% of blacks agreeing with having the flag fly on their state’s public grounds, or 12% of blacks viewing the flag positively without that dilution. ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2015, 12:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-white-hood-heritage-not-hate/723050/563 "2015-06-27T00:40:05Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Yes, it was. Stupid activity. Hell, Helsinki has statues of Lenin. So does India. Who cares? Does a statue of Lenin make the country’s turn (or return) to be communist? So I guess the widely celebrated image of Iraqis tearing down Saddam’s statue was also just “stupid activity”. > [@](#): > > Stupidity squared. No one is “whitewashing” history. History’s intensity fades. The “racism” of the symbol fades. Hell, even atrocities fade. That’s just a simple fact. > > Trying to remove the Confederate flag or rename army bases etc. just reminds me of when during Stalin times people were retouched/removed from historical photographs when they fell out of favor/were executed, and yearly people who had encyclopedias would receive a packet of pages with instructions of which pages in their encyclopedias to add, remove, or replace. Ayylmao. Putting up the Confederate flag on government property (ie essentially endorsing such actions) is more equivalent to Stalinist propaganda-this isn’t acknowledging the existence of the Confederacy or not but rather implies that the Confederacy was a worthy cause that deserves to be honoured by having its flags on government property. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2015, 12:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-white-hood-heritage-not-hate/723050/564 "2015-06-27T00:43:36Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > So I guess the widely celebrated image of Iraqis tearing down Saddam’s statue was also just “stupid activity”. Yes. > [@](#): > > Ayylmao. Putting up the Confederate flag on government property (ie essentially endorsing such actions) is more equivalent to Stalinist propaganda-this isn’t acknowledging the existence of the Confederacy or not but rather implies that the Confederacy was a worthy cause that deserves to be honoured by having its flags on government property. Again, stupid. The flag is at the South Carolina’s Confederate Dead memorial. See that “Confederate Dead” part? What OTHER flag are they supposed to fly? THAT’s the flag that the “Confederate Dead” fought and died under. How is it not appropriate to have that flag at the memorial? ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2015, 12:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-white-hood-heritage-not-hate/723050/565 "2015-06-27T00:45:36Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Yes. > Again, stupid. The flag is at the South Carolina’s Confederate Dead memorial. See that “Confederate Dead” part? What OTHER flag are they supposed to fly? THAT’s the flag that the “Confederate Dead” fought and died under. How is it not appropriate to have that flag at the memorial? Don’t seem to see any Swastikas here: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sologubovka\_Cemetery](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sologubovka_Cemetery) ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2015, 12:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-white-hood-heritage-not-hate/723050/566 "2015-06-27T00:46:05Z")
> [@](#): > > How is it not appropriate to have that flag at the memorial? Because it’s on the grounds of the statehouse. If you must fly it, move the memorial. Or just honor the dead without honoring their fucked up cause. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2015, 12:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-white-hood-heritage-not-hate/723050/567 "2015-06-27T00:48:33Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > Don’t seem to see any Swastikas here: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sologubovka\_Cemetery](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sologubovka_Cemetery) Again, not comparable. As explained numerous times before. ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2015, 12:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-white-hood-heritage-not-hate/723050/568 "2015-06-27T00:50:28Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Again, not comparable. As explained numerous times before. Even if I concede that the equivalence is not comparable in the other instances (which I do not) it is here, considering you said: > [@Terr](#): > > Yes. > Again, stupid. The flag is at the South Carolina’s Confederate Dead memorial. See that “Confederate Dead” part? What OTHER flag are they supposed to fly? **THAT’s the flag that the “Confederate Dead” fought and died under. How is it not appropriate to have that flag at the memorial?** ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2015, 1:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-white-hood-heritage-not-hate/723050/569 "2015-06-27T01:00:22Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > Even if I concede that the equivalence is not comparable in the other instances (which I do not) it is here, considering you said: [Denazification](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Denazification) [Strafgesetzbuch section 86a](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strafgesetzbuch_section_86a) Apart from the fact that Sologubovka is not a memorial. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2015, 1:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-white-hood-heritage-not-hate/723050/570 "2015-06-27T01:22:38Z")
Ladies and gentlemen, let’s step back for a moment and ask ourselves: who shall be the voice for African-Americans? The answer is obviously late-middle aged Russian immigrants who live in Texas. Such individuals are uniquely qualified to authoritatively tell us that three-quarters of black Americans are full of shit if they think the Confederate flag is racist. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2015, 1:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-white-hood-heritage-not-hate/723050/571 "2015-06-27T01:28:48Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > Ladies and gentlemen, let’s step back for a moment and ask ourselves: who shall be the voice for African-Americans? > > The answer is obviously late-middle aged Russian immigrants who live in Texas. Such individuals are uniquely qualified to authoritatively tell us that three-quarters of black Americans are full of shit if they think the Confederate flag is racist. Yep. This is the key – the majority of black people know about anti-black racism, and anti-black symbolism, and not others. I trust them (the majority of black people), and I don’t trust **Terr** , regarding anti-black racism and anti-black symbolism. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2015, 1:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-white-hood-heritage-not-hate/723050/572 "2015-06-27T01:49:33Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > three-quarters of black Americans are full of shit if they think the Confederate flag is racist. Where did you get that idea? ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2015, 1:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-white-hood-heritage-not-hate/723050/573 "2015-06-27T01:59:54Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Where did you get that idea? Every post you have made in this thread. I know what you’re thinking: “Oh my, everyone has got me wrong. I’m making a nuanced point that for some people, the Confederate flag isn’t about racism.” I know you’re trying to make a nuanced point. But your nuance amounts to the same bullshit that the Council of Conservative Citizens attempt: oh no, the flag isn’t about racism, it’s about heritage. Oh no, the Confederacy was just about states’ rights and unfair tax policies, it wasn’t about slavery. Oh no, we’re not saying that anyone is unequal, it’s just that blacks could advance more economically if they focused on building their communities rather than integrating. I don’t know if you’re actually racist or just clueless. But to attempt to argue that the Confederate flag is not a racist symbol because of some poll is about the level of analysis that I would expect of David Duke. If you don’t like being associated with David Duke, open your fucking eyes. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2015, 3:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-white-hood-heritage-not-hate/723050/574 "2015-06-27T03:56:28Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > Every post you have made in this thread. Cite? ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2015, 4:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-white-hood-heritage-not-hate/723050/575 "2015-06-27T04:08:59Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Cite? [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/search.php?searchid=12260540](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/search.php?searchid=12260540) 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2015, 4:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-white-hood-heritage-not-hate/723050/576 "2015-06-27T04:32:45Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Irrelevant to the subject. The subject is not history. The subject is what the flag means to the people today and whether “Confederate flag = racism” is the only reason to fly it. > [http://time.com/3931754/confederate-flag-fad/?xid%3Dtcoshare](http://time.com/3931754/confederate-flag-fad/?xid%3Dtcoshare) - that’s from 1951 I believe. Of course, even here the modern writers choose to interpret the “anti-Truman gesture” as racism. Instead of anti-government and anti-Northernism. Southern opposition to desegregation, civil rights and the repeal of Jim Crow laws started before 1951. You knew that, right? I mean, you must have heard of the Dixiecrats, right? However, the argument you seem to be advancing here suggests otherwise. ---
**Author:** ![the\_diego](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7bcc69/32.png) [@the\_diego](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/the_diego)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2015, 6:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-white-hood-heritage-not-hate/723050/577 "2015-06-27T06:09:47Z")
If the TS were to walk up to me and recite the OP verbally, I’ll tell him “I agree” without bothering to go into propositions. I’ll tell him to stay out of trouble and good luck to his cause. I might even drop a few quarters in the can. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2015, 6:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-white-hood-heritage-not-hate/723050/578 "2015-06-27T06:18:31Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > ROTFLMAO. I am not a Southerner (though I am now in Texas). I am not a Northerner either. Or Midwesterner. I dont own even one item that has a Confederate flag on it and never have. In fact, no one around me does. I think I watched “Dukes of Hazzard” exactly once. I don’t really care whether SC or Texas flies that flag or not. > > I am annoyed, though, by this silly rush to remove it now, after a hundred years, when its racist component has been hugely diluted. It annoyed me just as much when Russians (where I was born) destroyed all kinds of churches and burned the icons (I am not Christian, either) and renamed all kinds of places after the Revolution, and annoyed me just as much when now after the fall of the Soviet Union they rushed to rename those places back. > > Silly, stupid magical thinking - you remove the Confederate flag and that will make people less racist? Because it was the Confederate flag that was making them racist, right? No, when you remove people’s cherished symbols, you just make the more entrenched. And resentful. Is that the goal? No Confederate flag on anything? I have had so many things with Confederate flags, Nazi flags, Hammer and Sickles, Rising Sun flags, etc. But I also play and played a ton of war games. And I guess that’s another reason I don’t find it taboo. When you see something every day for decades in a proper context it begins to seem normal. It’s like blue comedy. After a bit those words don’t seem as shocking as they did when used in entertainment or whatever as they do when you are 10. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2015, 6:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-white-hood-heritage-not-hate/723050/579 "2015-06-27T06:40:29Z")
Reading a NYT article,[http://www.nytimes.com/2015/06/25/opinion/charles-blow-confederate-flags-and-institutional-racism.html?\_r=0](http://www.nytimes.com/2015/06/25/opinion/charles-blow-confederate-flags-and-institutional-racism.html?_r=0), on racism reminded me of this thread. I disagreed with the point of view of the author much as I disagreed with the premise in the OT. I just don’t see actions, by themselves as racist. My belief is that racism is a belief system and you can do good things in the names of racism and bad things that aren’t racist and so forth. I treat them as independent variables based on a strict reading of the definition of racism. From Merriam-Webster online > [@](#): > > racism > noun rac·ism \ˈrā-ˌsi-zəm also -ˌshi-\ > > Full Definition of RACISM > > 1: a belief that race is the primary determinant of human traits and capacities and that racial differences produce an inherent superiority of a particular race > 2: racial prejudice or discrimination So how can flying the flag be intrinsically racist? To me it doesn’t follow. I started thinking about how people love to throw around fallacy this and fallacy that as if this “Great” debate stuff is Euclidean geometry or math and can be formally proved and if it were math and could be formally proved than rational people would obviously agree. And the simple thing is all of us argue from different axioms. And even slightly different sets of accepted axioms can lead to logically different, yet valid conclusions. The sad thing is, even when the axioms are very close the desire to “win” and to be “right” and to score points with one’s “intellectual” tribe trump the desire to reach a mutual understanding. That to me is a more dangerous character flaw than any flag. ---
**Author:** ![the\_diego](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7bcc69/32.png) [@the\_diego](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/the_diego)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2015, 7:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-white-hood-heritage-not-hate/723050/580 "2015-06-27T07:12:32Z")
I say fly whatever flag you want and keep a gun in your home. Make sure you know how to use it and keep it safe. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-white-hood-heritage-not-hate/723050.md?page=28) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-white-hood-heritage-not-hate/723050.md?page=30)