# The white hood: heritage, not hate! **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [June 21, 2015, 2:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-white-hood-heritage-not-hate/723050 "2015-06-21T02:50:17Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 30
**Author:** ![Leaper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/4bbf92/32.png) [@Leaper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaper)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2015, 7:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-white-hood-heritage-not-hate/723050/581 "2015-06-27T07:45:36Z")
Holy crap, is this where this debate is now? Quoting the fucking dictionary? ---
**Author:** ![BlankSlate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/blankslate/32/80_2.png) [@BlankSlate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BlankSlate)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2015, 8:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-white-hood-heritage-not-hate/723050/582 "2015-06-27T08:14:37Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > Reading a NYT article,[http://www.nytimes.com/2015/06/25/opinion/charles-blow-confederate-flags-and-institutional-racism.html?\_r=0](http://www.nytimes.com/2015/06/25/opinion/charles-blow-confederate-flags-and-institutional-racism.html?_r=0), on racism reminded me of this thread. I disagreed with the point of view of the author much as I disagreed with the premise in the OT. I just don’t see actions, by themselves as racist. > > My belief is that racism is a belief system and you can do good things in the names of racism and bad things that aren’t racist and so forth. I treat them as independent variables based on a strict reading of the definition of racism. > > From Merriam-Webster online > > So how can flying the flag be intrinsically racist? To me it doesn’t follow. I started thinking about how people love to throw around fallacy this and fallacy that as if this “Great” debate stuff is Euclidean geometry or math and can be formally proved and if it were math and could be formally proved than rational people would obviously agree. And the simple thing is all of us argue from different axioms. And even slightly different sets of accepted axioms can lead to logically different, yet valid conclusions. > > The sad thing is, even when the axioms are very close the desire to “win” and to be “right” and to score points with one’s “intellectual” tribe trump the desire to reach a mutual understanding. That to me is a more dangerous character flaw than any flag. Has anyone stated that the flag is intrinsically racist? Flags represent things, they are symbols. American flags fly over American capitols because they are American cities. The confederare flag is the flag and symbol of a secessionist band of states that banded together and waged war against the United States.of America. There is a subtext of racism and oppression which makes what that flag represents even worse. There is absolutely no reason for that flag to be flown over American government buildings or any other public space. It represents treason, for fucks sake. Keep it simple: make an argument in favor of displaying that flag over an American capitol. There just isn’t one. This isn’t about freedom of speech or expression. That goddamn rag is never going to be banned. If it’s your thing, buy a million confederate flags and plant them all over your property. It boggles my mind that that flag was ever _allowed_ up on any government/public property, because as a symbol, almost nothing could be more un-American. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2015, 9:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-white-hood-heritage-not-hate/723050/583 "2015-06-27T09:37:53Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > No Confederate flag on anything? I have had so many things with Confederate flags, Nazi flags, Hammer and Sickles, Rising Sun flags, etc. But I also play and played a ton of war games. And I guess that’s another reason I don’t find it taboo. When you see something every day for decades in a proper context it begins to seem normal. > > It’s like blue comedy. After a bit those words don’t seem as shocking as they did when used in entertainment or whatever as they do when you are 10. I do realize that you’re just trolling here, but this bit is so astoundingly stupid that there’s a pretty good chance that you, being the jackass that you are, might actually believe there’s no difference between historical accuracy on a children’s toy and the use a particular flag has been put to in real life. Let me clear it up for you, troll: the various flags used by the CSA have been used after the demise of that despicable treason to glorify racism and segregation. People alive today have had family members murdered by those touting a CSA flag. Those flags should never have been glorified by governments under the United States of America. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2015, 9:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-white-hood-heritage-not-hate/723050/584 "2015-06-27T09:41:52Z")
> [@BlankSlate](#): > > American flags fly over American capitols because they are American cities. Capitols are buildings. Capitals are cities. Other than that (spelling) error, I completely agree with your post. > [@](#): > > That goddamn rag is never going to be banned. If it’s your thing, buy a million confederate flags and plant them all over your property. > > It boggles my mind that that flag was ever _allowed_ up on any government/public property, because as a symbol, almost nothing could be more un-American. Another thing that boggles my mind is that the various state governments involved in that treason paid CSA veterans after the war was over. That really should have been banned by the Feds. But, of course, there is some nice irony in those bastards getting paid in “Yankee dollars”. ---
**Author:** ![the\_diego](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7bcc69/32.png) [@the\_diego](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/the_diego)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2015, 9:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-white-hood-heritage-not-hate/723050/585 "2015-06-27T09:44:03Z")
He would have made more sense if he was talking about gay marriage or sex changes. ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2015, 10:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-white-hood-heritage-not-hate/723050/586 "2015-06-27T22:23:15Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > Another thing that boggles my mind is that the various state governments involved in that treason paid CSA veterans after the war was over. That really should have been banned by the Feds. But, of course, there is some nice irony in those bastards getting paid in “Yankee dollars”. In most cases, I’d agree with you. However, disabled draftees is another story. As the most proximate party to their being injured, their state should have been responsible for and able to partially or fully support them. (Of course nowadays we have support programs for things like that but I don’t know how much of that support infrastructure was around back then for the disabled.) ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2015, 11:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-white-hood-heritage-not-hate/723050/587 "2015-06-27T23:31:27Z")
> [@Ludovic](#): > > In most cases, I’d agree with you. However, disabled draftees is another story. As the most proximate party to their being injured, their state should have been responsible for and able to partially or fully support them. (Of course nowadays we have support programs for things like that but I don’t know how much of that support infrastructure was around back then for the disabled.) Can’t agree with you there. Armed insurrection was still treason. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2015, 10:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-white-hood-heritage-not-hate/723050/588 "2015-06-28T10:29:52Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > I do realize that you’re just trolling here, but this bit is so astoundingly stupid that there’s a pretty good chance that you, being the jackass that you are, might actually believe there’s no difference between historical accuracy on a children’s toy and the use a particular flag has been put to in real life. Let me clear it up for you, troll: the various flags used by the CSA have been used after the demise of that despicable treason to glorify racism and segregation. People alive today have had family members murdered by those touting a CSA flag. Those flags should never have been glorified by governments under the United States of America. No kidding, dummy. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2015, 10:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-white-hood-heritage-not-hate/723050/589 "2015-06-28T10:31:06Z")
> [@Leaper](#): > > Holy crap, is this where this debate is now? Quoting the fucking dictionary? Strange concept that words have meanings. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2015, 2:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-white-hood-heritage-not-hate/723050/590 "2015-06-28T14:21:44Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > No kidding, dummy. Do you realize what you just admitted to doing? ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2015, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-white-hood-heritage-not-hate/723050/591 "2015-06-28T16:21:53Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > Strange concept that words have meanings. Chief Justice John Roberts, ladies and gentlemen! ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2015, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-white-hood-heritage-not-hate/723050/592 "2015-06-28T16:50:06Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > Strange concept that words have meanings. It is strange. Your posts are full of words, and yet… ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2015, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-white-hood-heritage-not-hate/723050/593 "2015-06-28T16:58:15Z")
> [@Leaper](#): > > Holy crap, is this where this debate is now? Quoting the fucking dictionary? I dunno why you’re so shocked - most debates on this board seem to traipse through Dictionaria sooner or later. It’s like Belgium. ---
**Author:** ![GrumpyBunny](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/bc8723/32.png) [@GrumpyBunny](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GrumpyBunny)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2015, 9:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-white-hood-heritage-not-hate/723050/594 "2015-06-29T09:07:40Z")
> [@Stratocaster](#): > > I buy it. I think many who embrace the battle flag disassociate the disgusting aspects from those that they find appealing: all that Southern pride bullshit, the rebellious spirit, etc. (Though many–most?–find the racist aspect just as attractive.) > > But they’re kidding themselves. It’s like someone flying a Nazi flag because they admire German efficiency. Anyway, I think your argument is logical. I used the same Nazi flag/German parallel in a conversation yesterday (i.e., “flying the Confederate flag because of some notion of Southern US ‘pride’ is like flying the Nazi flag because you like VW Beetles.”) Someone should create a meme. ---
**Author:** ![Smartass](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/4491bb/32.png) [@Smartass](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smartass)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2015, 9:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-white-hood-heritage-not-hate/723050/595 "2015-06-29T21:44:06Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > “ZOMG but wut about deh Negro Confederatz!?!?!?!?!” is neither a particularly original nor interesting argument if you are used to these sorts of debates, but actually a pretty common tactic although it usually simply involves trotting out some random black guy in a Confederate uniform. Its not much different than “anti-Zionists” trotting out Norman Finklestein when convenient. I think I acknowledged that what he is doing might in fact be one of those arguments of convenience. That was actually what I thought was worth exploring. > [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > As I pointed, considering the quality of some of **Terr** ’s assertions, he’s playing the game you are accusing me of. I can see that, to some extent. But in the particular line of argument that you jumped in, what I saw was assertions where the conclusion seem to be implied, and I was wondering what it was. Put another way: A bunch of argument over whether the number is or is not 27%, but no explanation of what he really thought it meant if it really WAS 27%. -VM ---
**Author:** ![Smartass](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/4491bb/32.png) [@Smartass](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smartass)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2015, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-white-hood-heritage-not-hate/723050/596 "2015-06-29T21:46:04Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > ROTFLMAO. I am not a Southerner…you remove the Confederate flag and that will make people less racist? Because it was the Confederate flag that was making them racist, right? No, when you remove people’s cherished symbols, you just make the more entrenched. And resentful. Is that the goal? If all this is true, it’s a curious tack that you’ve taken. For instance, the text that I reproduced from your last paragraph above has nothing to do with this whole foray into “how many black people may or may not support the rebel flag in SC”. -VM ---
**Author:** ![Smartass](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/4491bb/32.png) [@Smartass](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smartass)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2015, 10:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-white-hood-heritage-not-hate/723050/597 "2015-06-29T22:04:25Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Stupidity squared. No one is “whitewashing” history. History’s intensity fades. The “racism” of the symbol fades. Hell, even atrocities fade. That’s just a simple fact. History’s intensity fades once the action is over. I think you are blatantly ignoring that racism isn’t over; it’s still an issue right now. If racism had just gone away (which it really SHOULD have by now)…for instance, if someone hadn’t just shot up a church full of people BECAUSE they were black and he is a racist…then this would be a completely different conversation. It is this kind of (seemingly deliberate) mischaracterization of the debate that will tend to generate nothing but animosity and eye-rolling over your posts. Yes, there are probably some black people who don’t realize that the confederate flag is, in many ways, a monument to their oppression. But it seems that there are a great many more who do. And that is why it is a problem to be flying that flag, even if the person flying it didn’t MEAN it as a racist gesture. When racist behavior ends–and has been gone for, say, some decades–then the various confederate flag apologists can gripe about everyone’s obsession with ancient history. -VM ---
**Author:** ![Knorf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/58956e/32.png) [@Knorf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Knorf)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2015, 10:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-white-hood-heritage-not-hate/723050/598 "2015-06-29T22:08:59Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > ROTFLMAO. I am annoyed, though, by this silly rush to remove it now, after a hundred years… Utter bullshit. Lots of people have made repeated attempts―ever since that flag made its ugly reappearance as a symbol of opposition to the civil rights movements in the 1950s and 60s―to remove that symbol of treason and white supremacy from government buildings and installations. > [@](#): > > …when its racist component has been hugely diluted. That’s highly debatable. It’s conspicuous use among white supremacists, whether open or closeted, contradicts you. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2015, 10:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-white-hood-heritage-not-hate/723050/599 "2015-06-29T22:10:38Z")
Here’s a thought - if it’s really about heritage, why not embrace symbols from before the Civil War? Surely there are some. Why choose from that particular and divisive period? ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2015, 10:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-white-hood-heritage-not-hate/723050/600 "2015-06-29T22:18:34Z")
> [@Smartass](#): > > History’s intensity fades once the action is over. I think you are blatantly ignoring that racism isn’t over; it’s still an issue right now. If racism had just gone away (which it really SHOULD have by now)…for instance, if someone hadn’t just shot up a church full of people BECAUSE they were black and he is a racist…then this would be a completely different conversation. > > It is this kind of (seemingly deliberate) mischaracterization of the debate that will tend to generate nothing but animosity and eye-rolling over your posts. Yes, there are probably some black people who don’t realize that the confederate flag is, in many ways, a monument to their oppression. But it seems that there are a great many more who do. And that is why it is a problem to be flying that flag, even if the person flying it didn’t MEAN it as a racist gesture. > > When racist behavior ends–and has been gone for, say, some decades–then the various confederate flag apologists can gripe about everyone’s obsession with ancient history. Christian anti-Semitism - it still exists, right? The Inquisition is history (has it faded, you think?) but Christian anti-Semitism is quite strong and definitely has not gone away. You know, of the “Jews killed Christ” variety, and of other flavors. I have heard normal, regular Christians express these feelings occasionally over the last 30 years I spent in the US. Even some “friends” of mine (of the Baptist variety) who were not ostensibly anti-Semitic told me (with sorrow, I am sure) that their faith holds that I will go to hell because I am Jewish. Fairly recently, a Christian Identity follower - Buford Furrow - went on a shooting spree at a Jewish Community Center in Los Angeles. Do you think I (and other Jews) should consider the Christian cross to be the “monument to my oppression” and demand it be taken down? On government land, no less, like in military cemeteries. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-white-hood-heritage-not-hate/723050.md?page=29) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-white-hood-heritage-not-hate/723050.md?page=31)